She’s a late bloomer, and, yes there is a history (I blame her mother) 
She has read the thread and and she’s considering joining.
I’ve told her that all she has to do is write:
‘Lady was right, I was wrong’, but that hasn’t gone over well. 
You keep trying to make your friend sound better, but to me she just keeps sounding worse: eventually she told the guy that they couldn’t be friends? :dubious: Just because someone buys something for you doesn’t mean you have to accept it. No woman worth her salt accepts more than one gift from a man she has no romantic interest in when she knows that he’s interested in her. Not even inexperience and late blooming excuse that, IMHO.
What a horribly flawed philosophy. Please allow me to mince it into tiny little pieces. For “Ms. Great Expectations”, let me ask you:
The clothes and makeup: Do you only wear the clothes and make-up once and then burn it? If you do, then yes, I would consider it an expensive way to date, otherwise…if you’re gonna wear the clothes and make-up again and again (to work or on another date with another schlep), then it’s not expensive as you would want us to believe. After all, I bet you’re thinking that your date(s) used their clothes repeatedly and their grooming products as well, which leads you to mistakenly believe that you are ENTITLED to a no pay date. Heh.
Other expenditures: Since you are focused on dollar values to see who foots the bill, we might as well find out the cost for the car used for the date, the insurance, the gas, parking (valet), tickets to a show, flowers, chocolate, wine, cheese, and other incidentals were applicable. If dollar amounts mean that much to you, what happens if the guy spends 5x more than you did? A peck on the cheek maybe? 10x? 20x? 50x? See where I am going with this? Your philosophy is actually assigning dollar amounts to your expectancies…not good…unless your a prostitute. Or lets say you spent $250 to doll up for a date, and your schlep spent $300 for the limo, $150 for show tickets, $80 for roses/choc., rented a tux for $75, etc., etc…are you banking that your ability to menstrate justifies him to pick up all this and the dinner tab too? BWAWAWWAAWWAWWAAWWAAA!
When did it become his fault in order for him to compensate you for your menstural cycles… and shouldn’t that be on a pro-rated basis? I doubt he isn’t gonna be there for all of them (actually at 29, he missed about half of them already…yikes!). What is the value of a period anyways? Can we track it on the NYSE?
I, like many other men would see right through your cheesy philosophy and move on to bigger and better things after we would pay that ONE bill. I feel sorry for the schlep that you lead around for years, but most men would not tolerate such a one-sided relationship, if you can even call it a relationship. I take that back, that’s mooching.
Oh, I forgot “issues”. :rolleyes:
No I didn’t…let me tell you this:
WE ALL HAVE ISSUES! DEAL WITH IT!
Total tangent, but I believe that word was born to be spoken out loud.
Preferably at high volume.
To unsuspecting strangers.
[QUOTE=Cervaise]
I am another man who prefers the simple look: clean skin, no makeup, no perfume, practical hair, practical clothing.
[QUOTE]
[hijack]What exactly is “practical hair?” Like, not washed? Or maybe just not blow-dried? Is hair that’s up impractical? When is hair ever “practical?” It’s not like it serves an actual purpose.
And does “practical clothing” mean I can show up to dinner in my gardening overalls and sneakers?
Pardon me but this just sounds goofy. Everybody puts their best foot forward on a first date; this is like me saying that a guy can show up in dirty jeans and a wife-beater and that means he’s going for “the simple look” and somehow that’s better than making an effort. [/hijack]
I took the use of ‘practical’ in that post to mean not overly out-there or overly formalised. No six inch stilettos, no dresses held on with double-sided tape, hair that didn’t take twelve hours to set and dye and is held in place with five million gallons of hair spray. Nice clothes, but not what you’d wear to a red carpet event or anything. YMMV.
I had an email this morning! 
And, not a work email, as usual, but a friend email!
My friends reply:
“hmmm…I see what they’re saying and I think a guy
should make an effort to look nice out of respect for
the person they’re with which can cost money just as
it would for a girl to look nice. The thing is though
that the cost and effort for a guy to look nice is
less than for a gal so they’re still paying more. If
the playing field is completely level there are still
things about being a girl that cost more. Shoes,
clothes, accesories, haircuts all tend to cost more.
It’s just more trouble in general to be a girl due in
part to cultural expectations of beauty and just
natural things we have to deal with and I think a
little compensation for that isn’t totally uncalled
for. So I guess I think I still have a point, maybe
not a large compensation, but dinner every once in a
while, and maybe even a movie or something doesn’t
seem totally uncalled for.
Alright that’s my little rebuttal. Don’t know how
strong it actually is, but I’ll stick by it for now.”
Dating is not a zero-sum game.
True. The end goal usually involves multiplication.
Female from Spain pitching in. I expect the payment to depend on two factors:
-
which one makes more, if known. If neither is broke, I prefer “each pays for a part” to going Dutch, perhaps as a reaction to how fanatical my mother’s side of the family is about arguing over a single damn cent. That’s a cent of a peseta, not a cent of an euro…
-
whether the gent thinks his manliness is tied to his wallet. I’ve been in situations where I positively knew the guy made my grad student finances look like Paris Hilton’s idea of pocket money, yet he absolutely refused to let me invite him to a soda. Whadevah.
I’ve definitely never expected it to depend on how much my blouse cost. I buy my clothes and decoration cos I like them. Heck, one of my bros spends twice as much time in the bathroom every morning as I do!
I’m sorry, but if you want ‘compensation’ just for being a woman and doing what it is that women are ‘supposed’ to do (dressing nice, looking after themselves) then become a model. Or a whore. If you’re dating someone because you’re interested in them, they shouldn’t have to put down financial gifts just because you’ve got a chip on your shoulder about having to pay however many dollars for that prada handbag. If you’re dating them because you’re not interested and you just want someone to feed and spoil you, see point one.
Grr. I have the angry tonight.
That’s not a rebuttal, it’s a restatement of her original opinion. So not only is she clueless about dating, she’s clueless about how to argue/debate. I’m starting to think that your friend isn’t really 29 … she has to be, like, 15 or something… (no offense to 15-year-olds intended)
Also, what Robot Arm and Sierra Indigo said (both more eloquently than I could have).
I guess, she still doesn’t get.
My experience has been anytime someone feels entitled to something, they are usually not.
There use to be a time when men always paid. Some men developed a notion that if they were putting out so much money for dinners and dates, that they deserved to be compensated. These men would end up angry that a woman would still not put out after buying her a lobster dinner. Now we know that a man isn’t entitled to anything on a date. Some women make a point of paying their share so that a man would not feel entitled.
There are still some men who do this. They buy expensive gifts for women or take them on extragant trips, then get pissed off that they don’t get any sex. They all seem to end up on Judge Judy wanting their money or gifts back.
Your friend is the opposite. She feels she is bringing a lot more to a date than a man does, and feels that she should be compensated with free dinners and dates.
So let me try to rephrase the question I asked earlier. If it’s wrong for a man to feel entitled to X because he did Y (Most instances of X being sex, and Y being ‘paying for dinner’), why is it okay for your friend to expect X because she did Y? (In this instance X being free dinner, and Y being ‘got glammed up for a date’)
Isn’t the simplest answer that on a date no one is entitled to anything. The person paying isn’t entitled to sex. Isn’t entitled to sparkling conversation. Hell, they aren’t even entitled to a good time. A date is nothing more than a compatibility test.
I would also like to add that I am weirded out by your friend’s ‘I am WOMAN, hear my woes!’ schtick. It sounds like she either hates being a woman, or loves the attention of playing the female martyr.
“Do you know how much it sucks to have PMS? Buy me dinner!”
“Do you know how painful childbirth is? Buy me a Tiffany tennis bracelet!”
“Do you know how much societal pressure there is to look beautiful? Pay my bills!”
Just. Not. Attractive.
Gotta chime in - your friend sounds like a real barrel of laughs on a date.
It seems to me that thinking about how much each person is spending on date prep is kind of off topic. I would think that you want to go out on a date with someone to have fun with them, and/or assess them as a possible romantic partner. I’m a guy, and I even like make-up on women, but I met and courted the Lovely and Talented Mrs. Shodan back when I was not making much money at all (and she was making a fair amount). So I kind of shudder to think how a woman would dress if she limited her wardrobe expenses to what I was capable of spending on a date. And that doesn’t even amortize for the cost of Tampax.
My mom is a real old-fashioned person, and even she taught us the rule that “the one issuing the invitation pays the expenses”. And that the only expectation one should have for a date is the pleasure of each other’s company for the occasion. Not “by heaven, I spent $60 on this outfit, so we better be dining at the Ritz” any more than “whaddya mean casual sex - this is my best suit!”
Regards,
Shodan
Hi Misnomer! Thought I’d reply to this as this comment was ‘to me’ as opposed to being a post mainly arguing against my friends theory (which I can’t really argue with as I agree with those doing the arguing).
You have a point here - accepting the gifts in this manner can reflect on her character. Her reasons for accepting the gifts mainly involved awkwardness. She said she didn’t really know what to do, thought it would be more awkward to not accept.* In her defense, she is my nicest, most giving friend - which is why her new theory is so perplexing to me.
*Please realize that this does not mean I agree with this reasoning. I understand that she felt awkward and empathize with the confusing situation, but I don’t believe I would have handled the situation in the same way. Plus, I thought the boy was cute, but he didn’t like my type - alas I’m not a fundie with the swirly lights of future children, bake sale cookies and the dream of chaste missionary style sex to cloud his vision.
(Arriving late to this). What pretty much everyone else has said, basically.
All right, if you say your firned is actually a good and nice person really, then I msut beleive you, but I will say I don’t think much of this theory of hers.
If I were a guy, I’d want to keep well clear of her.
As a woman, I think she is something of an embarrassment. I really do keep thinking that perhaps she is playing a huge joke here, and we are all being whoosehd, but on the whole, no, I just have to give up and think this woman comes from a different planet or a different centruy.
What a way to look at a friendly social interaction.
Oh, and I hope that guy that she was effectively leading on for years is now having a very happy life without her.
- Respect is a two-way street.
- Respect is earned, not bought.
- Money does not make anyone more beautiful than they were to begin with (unless you are a golddigger).
- Never generally assume any level playing field in life.
- Never generally assume that you spent more money than the other person.
- Never generally assume that you are entitled to anything except your own civil rights.
- Comparison shop! Red tag sales! Clearances! Stop getting duped at Neidless Marcups!
- Do you realize that you are creating dealbreakers before the date even begins with that type of attitude?
- If the guy wants to pay for the dinner/date, fine…say “Thank You.”. If the guy wants to split the costs…say “Thank You.” as well. Then decide (after the date) whether or not you want to date him again. Don’t pull the female “card” on him to guilt him into paying for it. That is a sure way to become a spinster.
- Dates are supposed to be fun…yet I haven’t seen you (or Lady) mention this once, it’s all about money, cultural pressure, and female woes. Where’s the fun? Are you fun? Or are you just a silent pinup model worrying about who’s gonna pick up the tab?
Whoo… And I thought I was clueless about dating. At least I never said anything as ridiculous as you described your friend saying in the OP.
So if I date your friend do we both keep reciepts and compare them at the end of the night?.
“Let’s see, one day’s car payment is $11.38 and I burned $3.00 worth of gas, the car insurance cost $1.00 for the duration of this date, dinner was $46.00, drinks were… HEY we need an accountant at table # 12!”.
I got set up by a friend for a date years ago. I show up at her folks place all polished up and stuff, we are going to have a lovely evening. We pull away in the car and she turns to me and says “you know your not gonna get laid tonight”. I circled the block and let her out in front of her parents house, if that’s the way her mind works? we have no future.
Tell your friend to try being nice and maybe someone will actually like her (I suspect that under all the designer duds with the tags still on, Minnie pearl style and the makeup they might find something of value). Or at least determine her hourly rate and be upfront about it.
Unclviny
I think the more important point is what type of man would share the view expressed by Lady of the Lake’s friend. While I disagree with the friend’s “philosophy,” I wouldn’t want a man who subscribed to it. I don’t honestly know of a man who would, but let’s assume for the sake of argument that there’s one out there (I’m sure there must be, somewhere). If the friend is willing to accept a man like that – one who would feel free to say to her “you didn’t do a good enough job getting ready tonight, so no dessert/cocktails/movie,” or who will critique her clothes/hair/makeup – she’s welcome to him.
Because whether we all agree with her philosophy or not is irrelevant. What she needs to consider is whether she can be with a man who puts a monetary value on her company, which is precisely what she’s doing. If she’s cool with that, who are we to tell her she’s wrong? That would be a very shallow and unsatisfying relationship for me. Because I’m much more than my clothes, my hair, my monetary expenditures. (Or much less. Depends on who’s doing the valuing. )