Dealing with passive-aggressive people

[Bamboo_Boy]

@PeskiPiksi

Yes, of course I should apologize, since I am the one in error. But the way he does it…it’s like he’s *shaming *me. Does that makes sense? And that makes me want to give the exact opposite reaction to what he’s looking for, just to be contrary.

Then why don’t you apologize, come on! I mean, maybe you feel like he’s shaming you, but he probably feels like you are ignoring and technically speaking, lying to him. Does that make sense? As for simply reacting in a contrary fashion as a way of dealing with a situation created by your shortcoming/failure to hold an agreement…Well, I think it’s nasty and immature, and doesn’t seem to express contrition or the idea that a greater effort will be made the next time. Sorry, not trying to be rude.

@PeskiPiksi

However, if he came to me and said something like, “Hey, sweetie, you left those tags sitting on the counter–could you please go throw them away?” (no spiel necessary) I’d be apologizing profusely as I passed him on my way to do as he asks. Because I am aware that it’s an annoying habit of mine, and I do feel bad about it. I just don’t like being made to feel like I’m two inches tall every time I make a mistake.

I’m mean, it’s not like our house belongs on an episode of Hoarders. I do a general pick up at least once daily (usually more like two or three times–we have a 2 year-old), the dishes get done after every meal, the kitchen gets scrubbed down every night, I vacuum three times a week, dusting and other deep cleaning gets done on the weekends. Our house is generally tidy.

I’m really starting to think this is a “you have to be there and know our personalities” kind of story, though.

Does it REALLY make you feel ‘two inches tall’ when he says something like “Are you keeping these for something?” I understand also that this a mild issue that doesn’t overshadow your relationship and that you are tidy in general. I’m just very interested in picking your brain because I am living in a carbon copy of your situation, honest I am.

I hope Im not offending you, I’m just very interested in hearing your position, your perspective, from the inside.
-BB

[PeskiPiksi]

@Bamboo_Boy

Then why don’t you apologize, come on! I mean, maybe you feel like he’s shaming you, but he probably feels like you are ignoring and technically speaking, lying to him. Does that make sense? As for simply reacting in a contrary fashion as a way of dealing with a situation created by your shortcoming/failure to hold an agreement…Well, I think it’s nasty and immature, and doesn’t seem to express contrition or the idea that a greater effort will be made the next time. Sorry, not trying to be rude.

I’d agree he could feel like I was ignoring him (I don’t get the “lying” thing, though), if we hadn’t had multiple discussions about this in the past, if I hadn’t been making a visible effort to improve, if I hadn’t gotten a lot, lot better about this since we first got married. But he *knows *I’m aware of it, he *knows *I feel bad, so why be mean about it when I slip up every now and then?

Question for you…what does your wife say when you talk to her about this calmly and rationally? If she blows you off and insists it isn’t a big deal, then yeah, I can see why that would really get under your skin and cause you to go into “passive-agressive” mode. But that’s not how it is in our situation.

And yes, my “contrary” initial reaction is immature. But he starts it! (By being passive-agressive, which is nasty and immature in itself.) He’s my husband, not my father, and I don’t need him to nag me or shame me into doing the right thing. All he has to do is ask nicely when I mess up. I mean, it’s not like he doesn’t do half a dozen things that drive *me *completely batty. That’s just human nature and part of living with someone. But you either learn to live with it, or you deal with it maturely and rationally.

Does it REALLY make you feel ‘two inches tall’ when he says something like “Are you keeping these for something?”

…

I hope Im not offending you, I’m just very interested in hearing your position, your perspective, from the inside.
-BB

No problem, this isn’t a super-emotional issue for me so don’t worry about offending. To answer your question, yeah…it does make me feel that bad.
I guess because I already feel guilty about it, so it’s just adding insult to injury.

And to add something from the messy person side, and I bet this holds true for your wife as well, this isn’t something we do consciously. It’s not like I held those tags in my hand and debated what do with them and then made the wrong choice. It simply never entered my mind what I was doing. I have to re-train the way my brain works to deal with this, which takes time. Before you can correct something, you have to be aware you’re doing it in the first place!

lisacurl, I somehow missed your previous post. Thank you for seeing it from my side! I was starting to think I was crazy…

[Patty_O_Furniture]

@sandra_nz

You make him clarify his statements every damned time he makes them. In a neutral, slightly confused, enquiring tone. A tone that clearly shows you don’t find what he said funny, but also doesn’t show that what he said has offended you.

Yes! Put him on the spot. I know this works on P/A people because I am one myself, and don’t like it much when I catch myself doing P/A things. Thankfully, I’m not P/A to the point of dishishness like Tim is.

P/A people tend to be introverts. Putting them on the spot forces them out of their comfort zone.

<runs away before anybody can criticize my reply>

[Bamboo_Boy]

@PeskiPiksi

I’d agree he could feel like I was ignoring him (I don’t get the “lying” thing, though),

“Lying” might be too harsh a term, especially in your case, if you say you will ‘try’ to tighten up. I was thinking you said something like “Next time I’ll remember.” In which case it wouldn’t be totally off-base to call that a lie of sorts. No?

@PeskiPiksi

But he *knows *I’m aware of it, he *knows *I feel bad, so why be mean about it when I slip up every now and then?

I think it might be possible that having to repeatedly deliver admonitions, compounded with the irritation of the habit itself can push a person into the PA zone. Just a thought, because I know it does me!

@PeskiPiksi

Question for you…what does your wife say when you talk to her about this calmly and rationally? If she blows you off and insists it isn’t a big deal, then yeah, I can see why that would really get under your skin and cause you to go into “passive-agressive” mode. But that’s not how it is in our situation.

I don’t know that it matters, but I’m in a same sex relationship with another guy. Well, if we have a rational conversation about it, he can acknowledge that as soon as he’s done unwrapping or opening something and gets to the ‘goal’ he just drops the wrapping (garbage) where he’s standing and it stays where it falls, as a default behaviour. There are exceptions. He HAS improved since our first contact, when there were cigarette butts on his floor and half eaten sandwiches on the coffee table. Oh God, I’m digging my own grave, I can hear his voice now, going on and on about how far he’s come. But it’s been nine years and he is still where I think a 10 year old would be. We are both 39, FTR!

@PeskiPiksi

No problem, this isn’t a super-emotional issue for me so don’t worry about offending. To answer your question, yeah…it does make me feel that bad.
I guess because I already feel guilty about it, so it’s just adding insult to injury.

Glad to hear I’m not stepping on your toes. I think my situation is different because I don’t think my partner feels any guilt or contrition about it. Every time I try to correct him, he has a singular excuse for THAT instance, no matter how lame. Typically, this is “I was JUST about to throw that out”, SHAMELESSLY, even if days have passed.

@PeskiPiksi

It’s not like I held those tags in my hand and debated what do with them and then made the wrong choice. It simply never entered my mind what I was doing. I have to re-train the way my brain works to deal with this, which takes time.

At the risk of sounding heartless, I guess I think that must mean that it just isn’t important enough to you. Put it this way- if I told you your (possibly fictitious) child’s life DEPENDED on your remembering throwing those tags away ‘immediately’ (whatever that means, let’s just say it means directly in the trash with no resting point; it doesn’t matter anyway) from this moment into eternity, and that if you slip, even ONCE, s/he is instantly dead, I’m SURE you would never err again. That slow re-training learning curve would vaporize and would change pronto. Now that’s crazy and I don’t expect you to take dumping tags with such gravitas. But do you see my point that on that spectrum of “importance to you” with my scenario on the other end, your repeated behavior can only suggest that you somewhere closer to the opposite end of the spectrum?

@PeskiPiksi

Before you can correct something, you have to be aware you’re doing it in the first place!

Too true. I spend most of my battle ESTABLISHING that there is a mess at all. I don’t mean to antagonize you or equate you with my partner. I really do find your POV enlightening, and perhaps we can offer each other a window to the perspective of our respective significant others.

[PeskiPiksi]

@Bamboo_Boy

“Lying” might be too harsh a term, especially in your case, if you say you will ‘try’ to tighten up. I was thinking you said something like “Next time I’ll remember.” In which case it wouldn’t be totally off-base to call that a lie of sorts. No?

Oh, okay…I see what you’re saying. But you’re right…I never promised it would never happen again. All I promised was that I would do my best to try.

I think it might be possible that having to repeatedly deliver admonitions, compounded with the irritation of the habit itself can push a person into the PA zone. Just a thought, because I know it does me!

Absolutely true, which is why I’ve never fought with my hubby over this–just told him later, “You know, it hurts when you do that.” I know I provoke him, and of course he’s human just like me and makes mistakes. But it IS wrong to be passive-agressive, no matter what the provocation. Two wrongs don’t make a right, take the high road, and all that.

I don’t know that it matters, but I’m in a same sex relationship with another guy.

Yikes, sorry. I shouldn’t have assumed.

Well, if we have a rational conversation about it, he can acknowledge that as soon as he’s done unwrapping or opening something and gets to the ‘goal’ he just drops the wrapping (garbage) where he’s standing and it stays where it falls, as a default behaviour. There are exceptions. He HAS improved since our first contact, when there were cigarette butts on his floor and half eaten sandwiches on the coffee table. Oh God, I’m digging my own grave, I can hear his voice now, going on and on about how far he’s come. But it’s been nine years and he is still where I think a 10 year old would be. We are both 39, FTR!

…

Glad to hear I’m not stepping on your toes. I think my situation is different because I don’t think my partner feels any guilt or contrition about it. Every time I try to correct him, he has a singular excuse for THAT instance, no matter how lame. Typically, this is “I was JUST about to throw that out”, SHAMELESSLY, even if days have passed.

Yep, sounds like your case is a bit more severe than mine. I’ve NEVER been THAT bad…it’s never been old food or dirty dishes or anything like that with me. It’s mostly just stuff, but nothing that’s going to draw flies. And with me it will never sit there for days…a few hours at most.

And since your partner is not contrite about it, at the same time as being apparently a pretty messy person, I think you get a much bigger pass than my husband does for the passive-aggressive stuff.

At the risk of sounding heartless, I guess I think that must mean that it just isn’t important enough to you. Put it this way- if I told you your (possibly fictitious) child’s life DEPENDED on your remembering throwing those tags away ‘immediately’ (whatever that means, let’s just say it means directly in the trash with no resting point; it doesn’t matter anyway) from this moment into eternity, and that if you slip, even ONCE, s/he is instantly dead, I’m SURE you would never err again. That slow re-training learning curve would vaporize and would change pronto. Now that’s crazy and I don’t expect you to take dumping tags with such gravitas. But do you see my point that on that spectrum of “importance to you” with my scenario on the other end, your repeated behavior can only suggest that you somewhere closer to the opposite end of the spectrum?

Yes, I see your point and don’t disagree. But to be honest I don’t think it’s that far up my husband’s importance meter, either, or if it is, he hasn’t communicated it to me. I mean, if he were to tell me that I needed to shape up or it meant divorce, of course I’d go around hyper-aware of every little move I made and would probably be able to go for a really long time without slipping up, although I don’t think forever. And what a miserable way to live.

I guess for me it just goes back to the golden rule…surely you have some habit that annoys your partner? How would you like him to approach you about it? Just do for him what you’d like him to do for you.

[phouka]

I’m torn. I’ve had to deal with people like Tim before, and a couple of times, I’ve lucked into the perfect response to shut them up, but it was never anything I planned.

Ignoring him when he’s being a dick would probably be easiest, since you can’t apply the really appropriate negative feedback (punch him in the balls) in the moment.

The direct confrontation takes skill and strength to pull off. Done right, you show him a mirror image of what he is and shame him into behaving. That’s rare. Done wrong, it just gives him more ammunition to use on you.

So, I think I’d go with middle of the road. Kill him with kindness.

It starts when you enter a room or say something or do something that gives him an opening. He makes a jerky comment. Don’t blow him off. Don’t look elsewhere. Don’t let it slide.

Put all your attention on him.

“Tim, are you okay? Do you need my attention? 'Cause that was such a [stupid/asshole/sarcastic/bullshit] thing to say, it sounds to me like you really need some attention.”

Next, if there are bystanders, bring them in on your side. Don’t let Tim get a word in edgewise. Talk over him if you must. Because you must. Tim is a man who needs your help and the help of all your friends.

“Hey, guys, I think Tim’s having a bad day. I mean, he just sounds so needy right now. I tell you what, why don’t we all [tell Tim what a great guy he is/give Tim a bunch of hugs/give Tim our undivided attention so he can tell us what’s wrong]?”

Then, impose on him. If he joked about how you could sit on the couch, sit right next to him. Put an arm around him. If he cracked a line about you eating dessert, bring him the entire dessert and a fork. If his girlfriend just made a remark about how he always picks on you, say it’s probably because he’s frustrated (winkwink), and maybe you could shoo everyone out of the room so they can have some “alone” time. Whatever it was he said, turn it around and make it about him.

At some point, Tim is going to scream that he’s fine. Take him at his word and back off.

The next time he says something rotten - anything to anyone - start it all over again.

And again.

And again.

Remain totally and completely sincere, because clearly he is a troubled soul in need of emotional support. Ask the others, ahead of time if you can, to support you, follow your lead, and continue with the strategy when you’re not there.

He needs to know that every time he opens his mouth and squeezes out a verbal turd, there are consequences for him. Unpleasant, aggravating, embarrassing, meaningful, and utterly polite consequences.