Dear December, you ignorant f***!

The BBQ Pit
101

Interesting points. The promotional material was referred to by several independent sources, so I presume there was extensive promotion.

If this were pure logic involving arbitrary propositions p and q, then I would agree with you. However, I’m trying to apply common sense as well. A country that promotes prostitution and which has a lot of child prostitution ought to be aware that many visitors have come specifically for the child prostitution. This is a judgment, rather than a logical conclusion. YMMV (And, don’t forget that Cuba’s support for and encouragement of child prostitution is also supported by the book I cited.)

Yes, I ought to have said, “encouraged.”

That’s a good question, and I do not know the answer. On the one hand, they prohibit child prostitution. OTOH there’s an awful lot of it. Your guess is at least as good as mine as to how to reconcile these two statements.

That’s a swell idea. I don’t have any such brochure. I do know that observers in many countries write about Cuban child prostitution so the message has been disseminated vwey well indeed.

Here’s a list of quotes from earlier cites. [ul][li]Child prostitution is a problem [in Cuba], with young girls engaging in prostitution to help support themselves and their families. Young girls have constituted the bulk of the prostitutes catering primarily to foreign tourists (emphasis december)[]In Cuba, the new generation of prostituted women vary in age between 15-25, although children as young as 13 are also found.[]Cuba has a well-documented child sex trade with the thriving sex tourism sector[]It seems that many of the men who sexually exploit children are frequent visitors to Cuba, []Sex workers have reported an increasing demand for adolescents and young girls[]Well then maybe you should talk to Aktham Zuhair Salem Madanat, international child trafficker and pimp, who, in London’s Sunday Mirror newsmagazine of January 6, had this ringing endorsement for his “product”:[/li]
“I can bring over seven girls right now from Cuba. …There are two young girls - one is 11. They are farm girls, very simple and easily controlled.”[li]“Why had Castro beggared his nation and put a generation of young women in the position of learning to be whores? Did the daughters of the Cuban leadership have to wiggle their butts in nightclubs? What color were those girls?”[]"Similar to countries like Thailand, Cuba is now considered a key stop-off on the international sex-tourism circuit. From Western European countries, Canada, Japan and Mexico charter companies offer package vacations aimed at single male travelers.[/ul]I see that this list includes many references to girls, but none to boys. I tried more cites, and came up with[ul][]I focus on certain types of Cuban-foreigner relationships often referred to locally as jineterismo (and which includes male-on-male prostitution). http://www.bradford.ac.uk/acad/dppc/gender/mandmabstracts/dforrest.html []Edward Hubbard [/li]“Hombría y Sangría: The Politics of Male Prostitution in Cuba”
Personal contacts http://clas.uchicago.edu/graphics/research/macarthur.html [li]. Many men choose to travel to particular destinations because they know that it is possible to pursue their tastes more cheaply and safely. Paedophiles are an obvious example of this type of sex tourist, but more common are men who have a[/li]preference for experiencing multiple, anonymous sexual encounters with teenagers and women in their early 20s. Other men do not travel specifically to buy sexual services, but do enter into sexually exploitative relationships with local women as soon as the opportunity presents itself. Alongside and often overlapping these groups, there are men who have very specific
racialised'-sexual fantasies. They travel in order to secure cheap, easy sexual access to Oriental’, Asian, Black or Latino **women, men and/or children. ** (emphasis december) http://www.ageofconsent.com/comments/sextourism.htm[/ul] Based on the shortage of references to male prostitution, it appears that boy prostitutes may be much more rare than girls.

Cuba promotes sex tourism. Young girls have constituted the bulk of the prostitutes catering primarily to foreign tourists. So, these tourists somehow have been told (correctly) that sex with children is easy to arrange in Cuba. I’m at a loss to reconcile that real-world situation with the laws making such sex illegal. Maybe it comes down to which we ought to believe: Cuba’s formal laws or Cuba’s actual practice.

sailor you have 1 source saying that child prostitution is rarer in Cuba than in some neighboring countries. That doesn’t even say it’s not a problem. (BTW can you tell us who that source is?)

I supplied around 20 sources saying that child prostitution is a big problem in Cuba.

102

and it’s a big problem in Thailand, and a big problem elsewhere.

doesn’t mean that it’s **encouraged ** (even your new choice word is wrong).

The fact is that child prositution exists in many countries, including those with legalized prostitution and those with illegal prostitution. It’s a world wide problem.

Yes, and surprise of surprises, in countries where prostitution is illegal, there exists a specific tourist trade for that purpose. that’s still not supporting a claim that the country encourages child prostitution.

You have once again failed to substantiate your claim that CUba ‘encourages’ child prostitution.

(I happen to agree that legalization of prostitution doesn’t help with the problem of child prostitution, but that’s my own opinion on the likelihood of results. I would never assume that meant that a country who decided to legalize prostitution was intentionally encouraging child prositution. )

103

december, you fail to understand what everybody else here understands. When your view of things differs from everybody else’s maybe you want to rethink your position. Your cites only provide evidence that there is some child prostitution going on in Cuba just like there is in every country in the world and more so in poor countries. It also shows there is less child prostitution is Cuba than in similar countries in the area. It absolutely does not show the Cuban government encourages it or even tolerates it. At least to reasonable people it doesn’t. The Cuban government encourages adult prostitution about as much as the US government encourages the use of heroin. There is plenty of evidence that the Cuban government does not tolerate even adult prostitution. Prostitutes are sent to jail (euphemistically called “reeducation centers”):

december, you are a waste of time. With your stupidity and pigheadedness you wreck threads which would otherwise be interesting discussions. This is not about disagreeing about anything it is about your utter stupidity and your refusal to see what everybody else can see. I pray you will go away and give us some peace.

104

If its not a GOP sponsored government, its evil. Am I right, december?

105

One reason I get discouraged from finding more and more cites is that people seem to find ways to ignore what they say and what they imply. e.g., sailor wrote, “Your cites only provide evidence that there is some child prostitution going on in Cuba just like there is in every country in the world and more so in poor countries.” wring wrote, “Yes, and surprise of surprises, in countries where prostitution is illegal, there exists a specific tourist trade for that purpose. that’s still not supporting a claim that the country encourages child prostitution.”

In fact, I provided more than one cite showing that the Cuban government had chosen to promote sex tourism. “Every country in the world” doesn’t do that. Not even every poor country. If anyone wants to claim that government promotion of international sex tourism is common, please provide cites showing all the other governments which do this.

sailor’s cite provides some counter evidence. I think there’s more evidence for my POV. Posters can look at the evidence both ways and make up their minds. I, for one, am not overly impressed by official Cuban government statements that praise Cuba. YMMV.

Now, I have a question for other posters and lurkers:

Prior to reading this thread, were you aware that the Cuban government had made a decision to promote itself as an international sex tourism site?

106

and none of that supports YOUR claim that CUba endorses, supports, encourages child prostitution.

You’ve shown that it exists in Cuba (it also exists in many countries, especially impoverished, and those who have legalized prostitution).

You’ve shown (perhaps) that Cuba encourages tourists with pictures of buxom lasses. So does Vegas, so does Hollywood, etc.

What you’ve **failed ** to do is demonstrate that by any action, Cuba encourages, supports and or endorses child prostitution. Which of course, was your contention.

107

Nice to see you on line, wring. Would you care to answer the question?
Prior to reading this thread, were you aware that the Cuban government had made a decision to promote itself as an international sex tourism site?

108

Don’t hold your breath. Once he’s done getting his jollies here by being deliberately obtuse, he’ll just declare the issue closed and go harp on some other issue in another thread.

109

And what difference does that make?

Do I agree that they’ve decided to ‘promote themselves as an international sex tourism site’? well, perhaps, but then, so has that one area in Nevada. Does that mean anything other than they wish to attract tourist dollars? nope. Michigan promotes itself for tourism, too. Doesn’t mean that they are promoting illegal activities conducted by the tourists they are trying to attract.

110

Well, I prefer to think and research for myself, rather than simply go along with conventional wisdom.

IMHO Cuba and Castro generally get softball treatment in most of the media, for some reason. Therefore, a lot of CW is wrong. In particular, there’s an unwillingness to focus on negative aspects.

If I had said that Bangkok encouraged child prostitution, perhaps some of you would have objected. If I had provided cites showing only that they encourage prostitution, but claimed that they implicitly encourage child prostitution as well, some of you might have questioned the implication. However, such a thread would have garnered little or no interest, I would guess.

However, when the same discussion goes on about Cuba, I find myself in the Pit. Not a single one of you has even acknowledged that Cuba promotes sex tourism. IMHO some of you may be reacting to an unwritten rule protecting Castro’s regime from harsh criticism.

Thank you for answering part of my question, wring. The other part was whether you already knew this before seeing it in this thread.

An area of Nevada promotes itself as an international sex tourism site? I cannot ever recall having seen an ad promoting prostitution in Nevada. I have certainly never seen one run by a governmental entity. wring, can you support your contention with cites?

111

Were you aware before you read this thread that december beats his wife?

>> In fact, I provided more than one cite showing that the Cuban government had chosen to promote sex tourism.

In fact, you did not. You have shown no such thing. In NO place did they advertise prostitution or sex of any kind. Pretty women yes. Sex no. Why would they put thousands of prostitutes in jail, er,sorry, “reeducation camps” if they are promoting prostitution?

In any case you continue to mix adult prostitution with child prostitution when they are totally different things. The enemies of the Cuban government (USA and Cuban Expats) do not accuse it of child prostitution but you know better. We have evidence that to you says one thing and to everybody else but you says the opposite. Only you see things your way. What are the chances you are right? Zero!

By the way, did you stop beating your wife december?

112

This is an excellent functional definition for the term “opinion”. Thanks for clarifying the nature of your position. You no longer assert this is a fact that you can support by valid deductive reasoning. This makes it perfectly clear to any intelligent observer that there is no debate here. We don’t debate opinions.

Enjoy,
Steven

113

>> some of you may be reacting to an unwritten rule protecting Castro’s regime from harsh criticism

You are a drooling moron. Check out all my previous posts about Cuba and see if I ever said anything good about them. But I am not going to make up lies to denigrate something I do not like.

114

Here’s a quote from a cite provided on page 2 of this thread.

http://www.canfnet.org/Issues/IssueBriefSexTourism.htm

That’s a very good question. This thread includes cites confirming that the Cuban Government is indeed doing both. These actions look totally inconsistent. I cannot explain why they are simultaneously following contradictory policies.

115

No.

I’ve seen Cuba on travel shows (on the BBC, ITV, Discovery Travel etc) quite a few times and no presenter has ever said, “Boy! You won’t believe the action $10 can get you!”. Nor, while looking at holiday brochures in travel agents, have I ever seen one for Cuba with massive reductions in the price of whores (Two for the price of one, under 19’s go free) - flights, car hire and hotel rates, yes. Cheap prostitutes, no.

So, if the Cuban government has made a decision to promote itself as an international sex tourism site, they are doing a really crappy job of it.

116

you’ll like this cite, december googlesearch I’m at work and suspect that a chache of hits on prostitution ads for Nevada might be suspect.

I don’t recall suggesting that the State was sponsoring the ads, tho, just that they existed.

Advertising (including advertising for legalized adult prostitution) does not = promoting, condoning, sanctioning, winking and nodding at, etc child prostitution.

how can you continue to argue the point?

117

“Still, a man hears what he wants to hear / And disregards the rest”. - Paul Simon, presciently

118

>> The flesh trade is Havana’s hottest commodity…. It is no surprise after the Cuban government has worked so hard to make it such

That is a very vague and unsupported cite which, in any case, even if it were to be interpreted the way you say (which I do not admit) STILL DOES NOT FUCKING SAY ANYTHING ABOUT CHILD PROSTITUTION.

You are giving drooling idiots a bad name.

119

I’m afraid I have to weigh in here with confirmation that Cuba is indeed a stopping point on the “sex tourism” circuit. For the past several years I’ve read the alt.sex.prostitution newsgroup out of some kind of morbid curiosity. There have been many discussions of how, where, how much, and so forth about Cuba. It’s not mainstream, ie you won’t find an ad for alt.sex.prostitution in the travel agent’s office, and the accounts I’ve seen are all individuals, not representatives of the Cuban government or Ministry of Tourism. Still it is well-known in the information sharing forums used by sex tourists that Cuba has many prostitutes and low prices because of their poor economy.

The information-sharing forums for sex tourists who are interested in sex with minors are much more obscure and harder to find. I have never sought one out and therefore I have no information on how Cuba stands with that community. I know Thialand has recently(in the past four years or so ) put a major crackdown on child prostitution and they have mandatory sentences for the offense. I had a friend in college who had just returned from spending a year in Bancock where he tought english to native Thai speakers. We had some discussions about the sex trade in Thailand and some mention was made of child prostitution. He said the authorities were cracking down and the part that was really scaring the sex tourists away wasn’t the thought of serving jail time in Thailand, but the knowledge that Thai authorities are now publishing their records to authorities in the offender’s native country. So when they get home they’re still considered a paedophile. This may cause the group of sex tourists who seek underage partners to look for other sources and in reaction to the demand the underground suppliers of illegal sex in countries like Cuba may have stepped up their operations.

All this really implies is that the Cuban government may be behind the curve in adjusting the effort level they must put into investigation and prosecution of these crimes. Child prostitution may be high right now in Cuba because Thailand cracked down and now the paedophiles are looking for other sources. As soon as Cuba has a handle on how big a problem this is for them I feel confident, given the outline of the Cuban legal system I provided earlier, that they will allocate enough resources to bring this under control if possible.

In a nutshell it looks like Thailand sprayed for roaches and the ones that survived swarmed to other places. Some of these roaches ended up in Cuba and now Cuba looks bad because it’s got roaches. This does not mean Cuba WANTED the roaches, just that they came.

december if you take any statement out of context and try to twist it I’ll show you what I learned in my years of lurking in alt.flame That’s a promise.

Enjoy,
Steven

120

I doubt that they advertise in Mercia, because it’s illegal for us Mercans to visit Cuba. However, based on all the cites, a lot of visitors from somewhere do know about it and do visit Cuba for sex – often for sex with children.

sailor – I admire that phrase, “An unsuppored cite.” :smiley:

wring, let’s see if I have this straight. You have shown that some entities in Nevada advertise or promote prostitution on the web. You’re not claiming that that a state or local government agency does so. You’re not claiming that there’s a specific international campaign (except that the web is available worldwide, of course.) So, it appears that Nevada does some of the things that Cuba has done, but not others.

Elvis – good quote from the wonderful Paul Simon. But, which of us does it apply to?