Dear Woman video - pretty amazing

[Shagnasty]

Check it out everyone. miss elizabeth checkmated Stoid in just a couple of moves. That was cool to watch.

That is what you get Stoid for tricking us into watching that horrible video. I think all of us that clicked that link were the true victims here and it was certainly done by you to us and there is no way you can deny that great injustice.

[miss_elizabeth]

@olivesmarch4th

Thank you for saying this so eloquently.

Thank you! That means a lot coming from you.

[Meyer6]

@Stoid

Good grief… is it really such a challenge to address something honestly? Is it only possible to say “I disagree” by exaggerating to the point of completing misrepresenting?

How is that misrepresenting? These guys apologize at one point for burning women at the stake. If the guys I work with wanted to do that, I suppose it’s their prerogative, but would think ‘you are a weirdo’, not ‘oooh, finally, equality for me, the womyn goddess!’.

If you want creepy guys to put you up on a pedestal as a woman, I suppose that’s your choice. But to say that most modern men do not see women as equals and can’t handle working with women isn’t really a step in advancing feminism, it’s just a kick in the balls to men.

[Drunky_Smurf]

Dear Woman,

I apologize for those serial rapists in the video “Dear Woman”. Their disgusting attitude was merely a way to trick you into trusting them so they can slip a ruffie in your drink and rape you out back in the alley behind the bar.

We real men are working hard to try to stamp out this injustice of history. Now show me your tits.

[Ogre]

God, that was awful. I will never apologize for something I never participated in.

[Shodan]

@Ogre

I will never apologize for something I never participated in.

Well, the weekend is young.

Regards,
Shodan

[jjimm]

@phouka

jjimm, I draw a distinction between taking responsibility for what others have done and expressing sorrow for the harm that occurred, especially if it is something that I have benefited from or if the harm was committed by someone I share membership with in a definable group.

Maybe it’s the wording then. “I’m sorry your grandmother died.” Seems weird to me, as if the person who’s saying it is responsible.

It does mean that, in the appropriate context, it is helpful and healing to step forward, acknowledge the action, judge the action as wrong, and express sorrow for the harm it caused. Why on Earth would it take a head of state to make such a statement meaningful?

Symbolism - “appropriate context” as you say yourself. If I say “sorry some people I share DNA with murdered Catholics and owned Africans as chattel”, what does that actually mean. I could say “it was a bad thing”, but a) who to, and b) it kinda seems like stating the bleedin’ obvious.

After all, the current President of the United States is no more responsible for the Holocaust than I am, but both he and I can say “it was wrong, it was evil, and I feel great sorrow for what happened.”

What if it were a German head of state though? That actually meant something.

[OpalCat]

@Scribble

Instead, they’re just saying, over and over again, in the freakiest way possible, how much they love and respect women. Ick.

And worship. I’m pretty sure they said worship in the first minute or so.

[wonky]

@OpalCat

And worship. I’m pretty sure they said worship in the first minute or so.

I don’t want anyone worshiping me. The very thought is grotesque.

[zoid]

So by tomorrow we should see a new OP from Stiod along the lines of “I was right about this too” for yet one more topic she’s completely wrong in every possible sense about.

[jjimm]

@jsgoddess

I don’t want anyone worshiping me. The very thought is grotesque.

::Discards shrine::

[needscoffee]

@Meyer6

Regardless, I’m not clear on how encouraging men to be simpering little sycophants towards the women in their lives is going to help enforce workplace equality. Having emasculated men fawn all over me and apologize profusely for all the slights my great-great-grandma suffered hardly sounds like an improvement to my workplace.

@Stoid

Good grief… is it really such a challenge to address something honestly? Is it only possible to say “I disagree” by exaggerating to the point of completing misrepresenting?

Exaggerating? Misrepresenting? Didn’t you actually watch the video, or were you just swept away by the masculine/feminine cosmic unconsciousness?

[wonky]

@jjimm

::Discards shrine::

You! Over there! Don’t make me get the lightning bolt. I just got it back from the dry cleaners.

[Stoid]

@Meyer6

Regardless, I’m not clear on how encouraging men to be simpering little sycophants towards the women in their lives is going to help enforce workplace equality. Having emasculated men fawn all over me and apologize profusely for all the slights my great-great-grandma suffered hardly sounds like an improvement to my workplace.

How is that misrepresenting?

Here’s the words:Can you pick out the ones that:

[ul]
[li]“encourage men to be simpering sycophants” and portray doing this as “enforcing workplace equality”?[/li][li]The ones that say “emasculated men” should “fawn” over you and “apologize profusely for all the slights [your] great great grandma suffered” to improve your workplace?[/li][/ul]
Some things from that page that were unfortunately not in the video version, as part of the introduction:

       **Apology and New Commitment **

One intent of the Manifesto is to offer a genuine apology for actions in the past and present, so that we can start afresh with new commitments that can guide us in bringing the new era into reality. Our apology is rooted in the original meanings of the word–to give an account, to acknowledge with regret, to express sorrow for present or past actions. A genuine apology never shames or blames either person, nor does it deny either person’s right to take full responsibility for the actions.

You choose to denigrate and misrepresent what’s being said because it amuses you to do so. That’s fine; we all come here and participate in various threads for various reasons. But it doesn’t change the fact that you are deliberately misrepresenting the factual statements AND the intentions behind them as something other than what they truly are.

[panache45]

If I were a woman, I’d find it patronizing and condescending to the point of nausea. I can’t imagine a woman taking this seriously.

[liberty3701]

Okay, as I was reading this thread after watching way too much of that video (made if 5 whole fucking minutes), I had some thoughts on the subject. But it turned out others had said what I wanted to say first and better, so …

@Scribble

It’s manipulative, creepy, and profoundly dishonest. If these guys were really interested in making things better for women, they’d be doing things that actually helped rectify systemic injustice against women. Instead, they’re just saying, over and over again, in the freakiest way possible, how much they love and respect women. Ick.

This. I wanted to take a shower after it.

@LSLGuy

Logically deficient, sociologically illiterate, and character-free.

This.

@phouka

Honestly, I was put off by the metaphysical vocabulary. There is no “masculine unconscious” anymore than there is “feminine unconscious”. Woman is no better in contact with the biosphere than Man, science does not belong to Man, and intuition does not belong to Woman. Furthering these stereotypes does just as much damage as insisting that Woman is the weaker gender and Man the stronger.

Definitely this.

@miss_elizabeth

Feminism should be a doorway to a greater understanding of social justice, not a stopping ground where you lick your wounds forever and cultivate a victim mentality. Nearly every human being who has ever lived on this planet has been disenfranchised in one way or another. There are NO winners, only losers, and we are all victimizers as well as victims. There are people for whom the pain has been superficial, and people who have dealt with wrongdoing beyond either of our comprehension. And I am here to tell you, your shit rates real far on the superficial side. We all have a job to do to ensure equality, so get started or be quiet.

And the video sucked too.

A million, billion times this.

@jjimm

Maybe it’s the wording then. “I’m sorry your grandmother died.” Seems weird to me, as if the person who’s saying it is responsible.

And on a different note, my sister once said, after hearing 8 million people apologized for my mom’s death, that she wanted to just respond, “Why are you sorry? Did you have something to do with it?” while looking at them all suspicious-like.

[Stoid]

@needscoffee

Exaggerating? Misrepresenting? Didn’t you actually watch the video, or were you just swept away by the masculine/feminine cosmic unconsciousness?

I say the same to you as I just said to Meyer6. The words of the video are available for dissection in the link. There’s a lot of new age goo to pick through, and certainly you can obsess over that, but the actual meaning of it all is pretty straightforward, and it is not “We want to crawl on our bellies and have other men do the same”.

Even the word “worship” - again, ,something they put in the intro in writing that might have been helpful in the video:

A Commitment To Usher In A New Era Of Worship
We believe that the next step in our evolution rests is a restoration of our capacity for such deep respect, attention and love in human relationships that we become capable of** seeing the divine in another.** We speak of this as the capacity for a man to “worship” a woman, and vice versa. We know that “worship” is a charged word for many; it has been kidnapped by patriarchal religions and often evokes a sense of subjugation. We wish to restore “worship” to mean a mutual capacity to express and see the the divine dimension in each other, to look through and beyond the personal as a window to the universal.

And as for the whole concept of apologizing for the actions of many members of a group you are part of, it’s not that unfamiliar. I’m sure not a single person in this thread participated, but I’m sure some remember sorry, everybody. So it’s not really such an alien concept.

[wonky]

‘And only one for birthday presents, you know. There’s glory for you!’

‘I don’t know what you mean by “glory”,’ Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. ‘Of course you don’t — till I tell you. I meant “there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!”’

‘But “glory” doesn’t mean “a nice knock-down argument”,’ Alice objected.

‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

[needscoffee]

That’s not what “worship” means, no matter how beseechingly they try to redefine it.

ETA: Or what jsgoddess said. Man, she is quick!

[Inner_Stickler]

I dunno. I say I’m sorry a lot in situations where I have caused no issue but because I feel genuine empathy and sorrow for the troubled. There are great injustices and some not so great injustices that are perpetrated every day. I think that the goal of the video was to say, hey, we see what’s going on and we want to let you know that we are here to help and to listen. Maybe the medium is not so great but hey, you can’t have everything. I had a point here, lessee, oh yeah, sometimes saying sorry is not an admittance of guilt but an expression of community. I see you in pain and I wish to reach out to you. I don’t think the men are saying they are personally responsible but that they are aware that beyond the gross and obvious misogynistic behaviors, there is a whole societal drive that really needs to be reworked. And that’s the sort of subtlety that can’t be fixed without conscious effort.

(the unconscious stuff in the video is crap though.)