Dear Woman video - pretty amazing

[Stoid]

@spark240

Certainly some women have done some men wrong. I do not say that the sum total approaches that of the wrong done by many men to many women.

Certainly some individuals to some individuals… but do you see any kind of collective agreement among any significant number of women as part of any legal, political, religious or other greater social structure that men are x and will therefore receive x treatment? No, because it doesn’t exist.

Well, you are a white heterosexual American, right? Do you accept a share of responsibility for the displacement and near-extermination of Native Americans?.. have heard or read representatives of the victims in all these cases (perhaps self-appointed representatives) laying the blame for their sufferings at your demographic door. Are they right to do so?

During the time periods in question, ranging from 40 to hundreds of years ago, white women were being oppressed by white men at the same time the white men were oppressing the Native Americans and blacks, so no. (Plus, I think the demongraphic that is actually accused most often is in fact “white men” more than “white people”.)

In the same way, I don’t think any war-related acts can ever be laid at the feet of women, since war is something men are primarily engaged in and something they create, as well as being something that nations engage in. (But I do support the bombing of Japan, although not necessarily so much for the reasons given at the time. I’m glad they did it because it gave the world a real-world understanding of exactly how horrific nuclear bombs really are, in a way that no “test” ever could, and did so while such bombs were still relatively limited in their power.)

Any time you start to look at what groups have oppressed and victimized other groups, it goes back to groups of men making all the rules, decisions and agreements that lead to the oppression and victimization, and unless you can find a society where women are genuinely as powerful and as in control as men are (good luck with that!), any participation they have in whatever the men have decided will be the oppression and victimization du jour can’t really be blamed on them, because they are not as free and powerful as the men are to make those decisions and control those results.

To use a very extreme example, just for illustration (for the benefit of those who would like to seize on this ): the Jewish prisoners known as kapos participated in many of the horrible things visite upon their fellow prisoners, but as victims themselves, they had no power to change the system, only the power to survive within it, even if that meant acting much as their captors acted. But if they had equal power, they would never have done the things they did acting within Nazi-ruled concentration camps. When it comes down to deciding who was really responsible for what happened in the camps, are you going to lump the kapos in with the Nazis themselves and hold them all equally responsible? Maybe you will, but if you do I think you’re profoundly wrong to do so.

Same thing with white women’s participation in what the white-male-controlled societies have done.

[Stoid]

@phouka

Honestly, I was put off by the metaphysical vocabulary. There is no “masculine unconscious” anymore than there is “feminine unconscious”.

I wasn’t thrilled with the way a lot of it was expressed, either. I also didn’t agree with everything they were lumping in. But I responded to the core sentiment behind all of it, which is rarely seen or heard, so why quibble with the details.

[jjimm]

@jsgoddess

Phouka, I agree that we can be conscious of how we have benefited from terrible things that have happened to others

We can be conscious, sure, but saying “sorry” for others’ transgressions against common morality doesn’t mean much, nor help a whole heap.

Some of my ancestors were a nasty bunch of people; one of them set up a vigilante group that killed Catholics in Northern Ireland; another owned slaves. I may have benefited in the most astonishingly indirect fashion from their collective indiscretions, but I (and all of you) have so many thousands of ancestors, that I really can’t take responsibility for any of their actions, and I’m certainly not going to apologize for them - I’d never have time to do anything else; there are other things just as bad as sexism and slavery (in my family, war, incest, and other weird crap).

Maybe, maybe if my dad or mom or grandparents did something shitty, I’d try to make amends to specific individuals if they were wounded by said actions, but to individually apologize for collective hurt caused by people long dead? It means nothing. Or if it means anything, it only does if said by, say, a head of state.

[miss_elizabeth]

@Stoid

Actually your question was whether I would apologize for the wrongs done by other women, suggesting that you see some kind of wrongs done by women against men that you consider on a par with those done by men against women.

I’ve never thought about the issue in the terms you offer, but the off-the-top answer would be:
distinctively identifiable on some other distinctively identifiable groups

But I can’t think of any other group v. group that compares, as I’ve noted before.

As a white woman who strongly identifies as a feminist, this made me insanely angry. I hate this “Oppression Olympics” shit. First of all, what about Women of Color? Or disabled women? Or homosexual women? Or a black disabled lesbian?! Does she “win”? Are you going to make a lame youtube apology to her?

It infuriates me to watch you cling to and stroke your little perceived injustices, and dismiss the exploitation and oppression of so many others. You honestly think, because it’s the only offense you’ve ever experienced, that it somehow rates as the worst. You even claim (in the other thread) the oppression of Saudi woman as your own, as if you have any comprehension of their life. You are the absolute epitome of me-first white lady feminism. It disgusts me.

Feminism should be a doorway to a greater understanding of social justice, not a stopping ground where you lick your wounds forever and cultivate a victim mentality. Nearly every human being who has ever lived on this planet has been disenfranchised in one way or another. There are NO winners, only losers, and we are all victimizers as well as victims. There are people for whom the pain has been superficial, and people who have dealt with wrongdoing beyond either of our comprehension. And I am here to tell you, your shit rates real far on the superficial side. We all have a job to do to ensure equality, so get started or be quiet.

And the video sucked too.

[wonky]

Gee, apologizing for Stoid didn’t actually change her behavior. I’m astonished.

[wonky]

@jjimm

We can be conscious, sure, but saying “sorry” for others’ transgressions against common morality doesn’t mean much, nor help a whole heap.

Right, I already said that upthread.

[Stoid]

@hajario

M Real men treat women as equals in real life without even being conscious of it.

How many real men do you know? Because if this is how real men act, I’ve known…well, damn few. Sure modern American men treat women much more like equals than men in the past or men in other countries still do, but like genuine equals?

It’s hard to say for sure without really putting it the test, but the most common test of whether men do think of and treat women as true equals is in how they behave towards them when they work with them, especially if they have to report directly to a female superior, but also if they have women working directly under them. (stupid jokes are assumed) In my experience this brings out the remaining gaps in a modern man’s path to seeing women as genuinely equal members of society. YMMV.

[jjimm]

@jsgoddess

Right, I already said that upthread.

Sorry, I meant that in response to phouka.

[Stoid]

@miss_elizabeth

It infuriates me to watch you cling to and stroke your little perceived injustices, and dismiss the exploitation and oppression of so many others.

I don’t know who you’re talking to, but it sure as hell isn’t me.

I don’t personally feel that I’ve suffered much of anything at all, particularly not as a result of being a woman. My issue is very much about the injustices and cruelties visited upon women living in far more oppressive societies than my own. Rather than dismissing the exploitation and oppression of so many others, it is their exploitation and oppression that makes the progress experienced by modern first-world women so puny: yeah, we’re doing okay, but what about the hundreds of millions of women still being treated like shit?

So rage away, but make sure you’re raging in the correct direction.

[hajario]

@Stoid

How many real men do you know? Because if this is how real men act, I’ve known…well, damn few. Sure modern American men treat women much more like equals than men in the past or men in other countries still do, but like genuine equals?

It’s hard to say for sure without really putting it the test, but the most common test of whether men do think of and treat women as true equals is in how they behave towards them when they work with them, especially if they have to report directly to a female superior, but also if they have women working directly under them. (stupid jokes are assumed) In my experience this brings out the remaining gaps in a modern man’s path to seeing women as genuinely equal members of society. YMMV.

Well it’s impossible to know what’s really in a person’s heart but I’ve worked in engineering for over twenty years and most men treat women equally from what I have seen. There have been plenty of exceptions and I’d be hard pressed to put a percentage on it but the “not real” men are few enough that I am sincerely shocked when I come across them.

None of that matters though because that video isn’t going to do a bit of good about the problem which is that inequality still exists. An eight minute video of whiny men hurts more than it helps.

[miss_elizabeth]

@Stoid

I don’t know who you’re talking to, but it sure as hell isn’t me.

I don’t personally feel that I’ve suffered much of anything at all, particularly not as a result of being a woman. My issue is very much about the injustices and cruelties visited upon women living in far more oppressive societies than my own. Rather than dismissing the exploitation and oppression of so many others, it is their exploitation and oppression that makes the progress experienced by modern first-world women so puny: yeah, we’re doing okay, but what about the hundreds of millions of women still being treated like shit?

So rage away, but make sure you’re raging in the correct direction.

Oh, so, all your excuses above about why white women can’t be held accountable for any historical injustices because they are the TRUE VICTIMS, that was what? A fucking typo?! Please. :rolleyes: Everyone here sees what you’re doing; backtracking now is pretty foolish.

[Stoid]

@miss_elizabeth

Oh, so, all your excuses above about why white women can’t be held accountable for any historical injustices because they are the TRUE VICTIMS, that was what? A fucking typo?! Please. :rolleyes: Everyone here sees what you’re doing; backtracking now is pretty foolish.

Did you note the thing about history there?

And the fact that the question was about signing up to take the heat alongside men for the various wrongs described?

A different thing entirely than what you were describing, which was some person who was evidently turning their inability to break through the glass ceiling into a tragedy on the scale of female genital mutilation.

Two different concepts, non-conflicting.

[Spice_Weasel]

@miss_elizabeth

Feminism should be a doorway to a greater understanding of social justice, not a stopping ground where you lick your wounds forever and cultivate a victim mentality. Nearly every human being who has ever lived on this planet has been disenfranchised in one way or another. There are NO winners, only losers, and we are all victimizers as well as victims.

Thank you for saying this so eloquently.

[wonky]

@miss_elizabeth

Oh, so, all your excuses above about why white women can’t be held accountable for any historical injustices because they are the TRUE VICTIMS, that was what?

She had too much masculine energy when she made that post, causing her to misspeak. It’s always the masculine energy that makes people do bad things. Feminine energy leads to world peace and multiple orgasms and topiary.

[phouka]

jjimm, I draw a distinction between taking responsibility for what others have done and expressing sorrow for the harm that occurred, especially if it is something that I have benefited from or if the harm was committed by someone I share membership with in a definable group.

This does not mean that I roam the streets, accosting innocent bystanders, sobbing “I’m so sorry! My ancestors/gender/profession/hobby/political party suck(s)! It was wrong, and it’s my fault! So very, very wrong!” That would be both pointless and get me confined under psychiatric care fairly quickly.

It does mean that, in the appropriate context, it is helpful and healing to step forward, acknowledge the action, judge the action as wrong, and express sorrow for the harm it caused. Why on Earth would it take a head of state to make such a statement meaningful? After all, the current President of the United States is no more responsible for the Holocaust than I am, but both he and I can say “it was wrong, it was evil, and I feel great sorrow for what happened.”

The more voices that speak out in this way, the more those who have been harmed can trust that things will get better. The more voices that speak out in this way, the more those who do such harm will hear that they are the villains. That may not sound like much, but every person wants to believe they are righteous, and if they hear nothing to the contrary, there’s no reason for them to question their own beliefs and actions.

Silence equals acceptance. Dismissal is just another way of saying the other person doesn’t matter. Denial just means you don’t want to have to look at yourself through another’s eyes.

[Meyer6]

@Stoid

How many real men do you know? Because if this is how real men act, I’ve known…well, damn few. Sure modern American men treat women much more like equals than men in the past or men in other countries still do, but like genuine equals?

Not to be too snarky, but - you work at home and are self-employed, right? Is it possible you’re not up on how workplaces operate now? Because your experience doesn’t jive with mine - I have worked in a couple of highly male-dominated fields, and I haven’t really experienced this tremendous oppression you apparently feel is commonplace for women at work. Sure, there are a few jerks, but not many.

Regardless, I’m not clear on how encouraging men to be simpering little sycophants towards the women in their lives is going to help enforce workplace equality. Having emasculated men fawn all over me and apologize profusely for all the slights my great-great-grandma suffered hardly sounds like an improvement to my workplace.

@Stoid

Rather than dismissing the exploitation and oppression of so many others, it is their exploitation and oppression that makes the progress experienced by modern first-world women so puny: yeah, we’re doing okay, but what about the hundreds of millions of women still being treated like shit?

So rage away, but make sure you’re raging in the correct direction.

I’m sure the suffragettes and other women who have actually taken it to the streets for real change in our world would be happy to know that you consider their work ‘puny’.

[Shodan]

I couldn’t watch it all the way to the end, but I hope the last line was “now show me your tits”.

Regards,
Shodan

[Stoid]

@phouka

It does mean that, in the appropriate context, it is helpful and healing to step forward, acknowledge the action, judge the action as wrong, and express sorrow for the harm it caused. Why on Earth would it take a head of state to make such a statement meaningful? After all, the current President of the United States is no more responsible for the Holocaust than I am, but both he and I can say “it was wrong, it was evil, and I feel great sorrow for what happened.”

The more voices that speak out in this way, the more those who have been harmed can trust that things will get better. The more voices that speak out in this way, the more those who do such harm will hear that they are the villains. That may not sound like much, but every person wants to believe they are righteous, and if they hear nothing to the contrary, there’s no reason for them to question their own beliefs and actions.

Silence equals acceptance. Dismissal is just another way of saying the other person doesn’t matter. Denial just means you don’t want to have to look at yourself through another’s eyes.

Beautifully put.

[Stoid]

@Meyer6

Regardless, I’m not clear on how encouraging men to be simpering little sycophants towards the women in their lives is going to help enforce workplace equality. Having emasculated men fawn all over me and apologize profusely for all the slights my great-great-grandma suffered hardly sounds like an improvement to my workplace.

Good grief… is it really such a challenge to address something honestly? Is it only possible to say “I disagree” by exaggerating to the point of completing misrepresenting?

[Stoid]

@Shodan

I couldn’t watch it all the way to the end, but I hope the last line was “now show me your tits”.

Regards,
Shodan