Sure, if you lump the bigots into the “conservative” column. But you should not confuse conservatism with bigotry. Bigotry is a species of ignorance that is always gonna get stomped on around here. I think you would be hard-pressed to find any other kinds of “political” pile-ons around here, except for the occasional trolls who show up and post inflamatory political crap for the sake of stirring up opposition.
Taxguy, a common misperception of liberals is that we value diversity so much that we consider all opinions to be equally valid.
That’s incorrect. Diversity in skin color, in age, in sex, in sexual preference – great!
Diversity in culture, in religion – a qualified great!
Diversity in politics – important on principle.
The qualification on culture and religion tends to be this: if your culture or religion leads you to devalue certain races, certain ages, certain sexual preferences, a sex, then your culture or religion is faulty to the degree it does so. Same thing with politics.
The principle tends to be this: even though certain political views are inferior to others (e.g., a political view that calls for denying black people the right to vote), it is important to have an atmosphere that allows for the free exchange of ideas. That means allowing a racist to air their views, and allowing an antiracist to call the racist an asshole. The liberal might side with the anti-racist, but will support the racist’s freedom of expression.
Does the liberal wish the racist weren’t racist? Sure. Does that make the liberal intolerant of diversity? Of course not.
Daniel
I do not subscribe to any version of “diversity” that includes trolls or that accepts bigotry with open arms.
Took the words right outta my fingers.
This is crap, DAN, and you know it. The ideologues on both sides rally around their members, and conservatives are no more likely than liberals to tolerate dishonesty. Or perhaps you’d like to name this “core group” of dishonesty-defending conservative posters, instead of merely smearing a vague group, ala McCarthy’s "I hold here in my hand a list of names . . . "?
This is the sort of “all (or most) [insert ideology here] are [insert insult here]” statements that further polarize the Board, and a poster of your tenure and reputation ought to be above it.
“Dude”, the view that homosexuality is wrong has caused plenty of people lots of misery. Try telling someone that their entire life is wrong, sinful, and that they’re going to hell for it.
You do know that kicking the shit out of someone is not the only way to hurt them, right?
Diversity in culture, in religion – a qualified great!
Diversity in religion is only in the “great” category if the liberal in question approves of the religion and how the other person chooses to practice it and act on their beliefs.
Jodi, I fear I’m misunderstood. By "core group of conservatives**, I’m not talking about you: I didn’t see you defending december’s outrages. I’m pretty sure I have seen Sam Stone, Shodan, Izzy, and Brutus all defending december’s outrages.
On the other hand, I don’t recall seeing liberal posters jumping to Reeder’s defense, or Chumpsky’s defense. (Some of us jumped to elucidator’s defense during a pile-on several weeks ago – but elucidator is hardly comparable to december). Maybe I’m wrong; maybe there’s a core group of liberals that defends dishonest debating tactics when used by other liberals. Show me examples, and I’ll gladly concede the point.
Honestly, it’s something I’ve wondered about. Why would anyone want to defend a dishonest debater? Why did people come to december’s defense?
I’m no wise no how saying that all conservatives do. My little jibe about “conservatives are more loyal” may have given that impression; if it did, I apologize. It’s not what I meant.
Again: I don’t think liberals in general are more concerned with the truth. I do think that on this board, there’s not a group of liberal posters that jump to the defense of dishonest liberal posters, the way there was with SOME conservative posters and december.
Daniel
I don’t disagree with the decision that december was essentially a troll; he fit the definition to a T. I am going to miss him being around regardless, even though I disagreed with him to some extent (usually greatly) on just about everything, and often his ‘debating’ tactics amounted to acting as if points he knew he couldn’t refute had never been raised in the first place. It’s a damn shame to have to see him go; it isn’t going to be quite the same without him.
If you are reading this thread december, I wish you the best. Not entirely sure I’ll miss the december verse, though. A bit Vogan sometimes.
AWWWK! AWWWK! Pretty bird! AWWWK!
Exactly same thing applies with december. He got beat for being an idiot and a jerk, not because he was left or right.
I always remember one of my first arguments with him where he was adamant that the prisoners in Guantanamo had to be prisoners of war. he defended this because he thought that was what the government was going to do but when they said the exact opposite he did a 180 and said they should not be considered POWs. His reasoning was that he trusted Bush to know what was best.
What is the point of talking to someone who just repeats His Master’s Voice?
I locked horns with him in several threads and found him to be immune to reason and a total jerk. Arguing with him was a total waste of time and the board is better off without him. He ruined many threads with his crap.
Exactly, dude. Christian Identity folks ain’t so great, if you ask me. I disapprove of the religion (which considers Jews to be demons and nonwhites to be mud people). I disapprove of how many Identity Christians choose to practice their religion and act on their beliefs (which often involves racist terrorism). For similar reasons, I disapprove of the Nation of Islam, of Wahabbi Islam, and of the 700 Club.
Did you not read my post above? That’s why I said religion was a qualified great: as long as the religion doesn’t devalue or oppress people based on race, age, sex, etc., diversity of religion is great. Once a religion starts doing that, it is nongreat to the extent it does that.
Next time if you need to reread a post, scroll up.
Daniel
grienspiece,
what will be enough for you then, a full admission from Rumsfeld?Indeed, fat chance of that happening. As you say, the accusation of lying has been frequently expressed on this board. So frequent because they lie so frequently. What specific lies do you want to see proof against this time? The vast amounts of chemical weapons? The nuclear program? The Al-Qaeda ties? The immediate threat to the US?
Or you want more ‘mundane’ spin refuted? Like kicking out the inspectors, gassing his own people, werewolves… Jeez there is so much of this shit.
Let’s just take one, O.K? For you read the boards and have heard it all before.
If the govt. were that concerned about chemical weapons stocks, why didn’t they take any steps to secure the suspected sites?
The only logical conclusion is that they weren’t concerned about them. Ergo, they lied when they said they were.
Once you accept that these people are capable of lying, which is a big step apparently, it becomes so enormously obvious that you actually see them doing it. Which has grown to become nearly every time they open their fucking mouthes.
DANIELWITHROW –
No, DANIEL, it is YOUR contention (of which you’re “pretty sure”) that the posters you name defend not just DECEMBER’s ideology, but his dishonesty. So YOU show ME examples and I’ll gladly concede the point. But I think it’s unfair of you to accuse posters who IME are honest (which includes everyone on your list except BRUTUS, whom I except because I don’t know him or his posting style) with defending dishonesty as opposed to ideology. In my world, that’s a pretty serious charge. I never thought you were talking about me, because to my knowledge I’ve never defended a thing DECEMBER said, at least not since I’ve suspected his basically trolling for responses and intentionally pissing people off. But I still feel your accusation is extremely unfair unless you have the cites to back it up – and remember, I’m not talking about defending his point but his “outrages”, not his ideology but him when “there’s a pile-on for dishonesty.”
Maybe that’s not what you meant to say, but that’s what you said and I think it’s a pretty damn serious thing to allege.
I still like you an’ all, but I think you’re off-base here.
Be all right if it were not for the possibility that Coll might have torn out his throat with his teeth.
All in all, guess I’ll miss him a bit. He did have the habit of lobbing easy ones over the plate. Sometimes a bit scary as well, as when recently he made reference to the German “werewolves” and then it pops up in a ration of blather issued by the Bushiviks.
Were it up to me, I think I would be inclined to relent if he were to promise to never, ever, under any circumstances, post another “limerick”. december, the AntiChrist of scansion.
And I take this opportunity to espouse my favorite charity, once again. As evidenced by the “liberal conspiracy” refrain sung by the Choir Unbearable…
Cognitive Dissonance is a plague upon our nation, and the number one threat to the Republic! When your CD volunteer comes calling, give and give generously…
Via Con Huevos, friend December.
I present you posthumously with the Ann Coulter medal of freedom.
Go forth and fight the good fight wherever Conservatives are persecuted.
I will stand at the wall, and I wll not be silent as the jackbooted thugs come from me.
If you were here right now, I would be proud to present you with the laurel, and hardy handshake for all that you’ve done.
:Stands up and sings.:
DEEEEECEEEEMMMMMBBBBBEEEERRRRRR MOURN
He danced until the night became a brand new day
A poster writing scenes from some politcal play.
December Mourning, still, can make me feel that way…
C’mon, everybody, sing!
DEEEEEEECCCCCCEEEEEMMMBBBBBBEEEEERRRRR Mourn…
Ooooops, Freudian Slip. Jackbooted thugs don’t come from me. Or course not. I meant for me.
I am a bit confused when people characterize the Staff here as being liberal. I would say more libertarian, or even conservative, than that. In any event, I have never seen any evidence that any of the Staff have acted impartially due to political leanings, and I’ve read a lot of threads…
dan, this just isn’t true. I haven’t seen any of those guys defend december’s dishonesty, not one single time; some of them I’ve seen argue that he shouldn’t be banned, but I’ve never seen them defend him from specific accusations of dishonesty. I don’t recall those guys ever standing up on december’s side when december was dishonest about something. If they ever have it must not happen very often.
I absolutely HAVE seen “liberal” posters defended in exactly the same manner as december has been, in several Pit threads. Not Chumpsky or Reeder, specifically, but others. I see absolutely no difference whatsoever in behaviour on either side.
Dex has said December was banned for dodgy posting practices, and not for his politics. I believe that.
The problem is not the moderators, but rather the membership. December’s OPs were subjected to an extreme and unreasonable scrutiny. Ever last comma in a post of his was deconstructed by a posse of pile-onsters.
He wasn’t banned for his views, but he was certainly run out of town for them. To me, December isn’t a bright light in the SDMB Jerk Hall of Fame. Not even close. He was just a bit irritating sometimes. There are lots of posters like that.
I’m a conservative who did not particularly agree with December’s views, yet I’ll kinda miss him.