Give me a motherfucking break, Izzy. My complaint with december, and it strikes me that it is more or less the same as Guins, is precisely the same as that with stoid – both pass every single fucking fact through their ideological distortion screen with little demonstrated capacity at clear analysis. It’s not his * tactics * it’s his lack of intellectual honesty.
I’ve not found the same problem with say, Freedom, just to use a shining example of a clear-headed thinker.
Stick up for ideological brethren --such as they are-- for no better reason than they are that is contemptible group think. In my book, a form of ignorance, contempible ignorance.
Well, now, that might be true. How best to verify your hypothosis. It would seem to me that you should hang around the GD board. You see a conservative, dash back over to the pit and see if the Usual Suspects are “piling on”.
The last “conservative” (far too gracious a description in this case) I saw gang-trashed here was the late unlamented Wildest Bill, a truly stunning example of a troglodytic reactionary.
That is my judgement. And your assessment of my motivations is no more valid than my assessment of yours.
I freely admit that I may be biased in this regard. I firmly believe that it is impossible (or nearly impossible) to pass judgements about people’s debating tactics or intellectual honesty, without being influenced by one’s positions on the issues. This goes for me as well as for all those who have attacked december in this thread - all of whom are, by incredible concidence, liberals (AFAIK).
Actually this has indeed been my observation. It goes in reverse as well. Do you disagree (obviously you do about this specific case - I mean about the general pattern)?
Izzy, and you’ll notice that I mentioned that Stoid does the same thing-several ‘liberals’ have mentioned so. I don’t think Stoid is a conservative, do you?
Again, I said, it’s not about being a conservative-it’s about being a narrow-minded zealot.
Oddly, * I’ve had no problem passing judgement on stoid, although you label me a liberal. I can’t say I think I am, but…
Rather, I consider it fairly straightforward to judge how folks deal with facts and critical thining.
Another example, Ex-Tank. Strikes me he’s conservative, I do not agree with him on many issues, yet his logic and ability to engage an argument leaves me no doubt as to his good critical thinking skills. Or Pldennison as a libertarian. On the opposite side, I am singularly unimpressed by Mandlestam, Curious George.
So, do review my comments on group think and reflect. Or perhaps it is not surprising you thought december a sock of yourself?
I’m sure there can be conservatives you respect and liberals that you don’t. It does not follow that your judgement in a given case is not heavily influenced by your opinion of the person’s ideology. This is commonsensical and is also my observation from these boards, as mentioned. (See for example Stoidela, just go away, OK? for a breakdown of opinions about Stoid and others - there is undoubtedly a significant degree of correlation to party lines). So while it may be “not about being a conservative-it’s about being a narrow-minded zealot”, the judgement of whether december is a narrow-minded zealot is influenced by his being a conservative.
Collounsbury, maybe you’re superhuman. Or maybe not. In any event, my admittedly biased opinion is that you are wrong.
Oh, yes, quite. Now, one must keep in mind that I am person of quiet reserve and dignity, like most Texans, so my perusals of the Pit are rather rare. (I wouldn’t have seen ths one if it weren’t for a link set in place by Guinastasia “Noodles” Romanoff.)
So I can’t offer real expertise, just such as my casual acquaitance would allow. I have seen several people of no particular ideological stripe identified as “trolls” and have yet to disagree with that assessment.
But, if I were to hazard a guess, it would be that I rather doubt that such a disparity exists. Poltically, the SDMB seems, to my eye at least, just right of center in its general orientation. Calibration can be a problem, of course, I tend to regard the middle as being somewhere between Newt Gangrene on the one hand and, well, myself.
Now that might be rather refreshing, come to think of it: to see someone thoroughly lambasted for being too Centrist.
But, as I said, if you truly give a shit, you can check it out. I would, but I don’t. So I won’t. Too busy, Izzy. Shalom, muchacho.
Guin, I’m touched for the compliment! Buy yourself a DrPepper on me
I love liberal/conservative flames. The liberals swear they don’t mean what they say, and the conservatives are always saying what they don’t mean. You kids!
I have to disagree, Coll (much as that pains me :D). Absolutely, in some debates, december has cut corners, but then again we all have - I know for myself that there have been many times in GD where I vaguely recall X fact or Y stat, but have no clue where I recall it from and, as I’m typing the post, I’m chanting in my mind “please no one challenge me on this, please no one challenge me on this.” But, in general, december has struck me as a thinking conservative - certainly not on Freedom’s level, but very few people are.
What has struck me is that liberals on these boards have attacked december in cases where they have obviously not read what he wrote. Two examples stick in my mind.
The first was in a thread concerning the revelation that the Bush Administration’s allegations that Clintonites had vandalized the White House before leaving office were false. december came in and said to the effect, “I’m a conservative, but the allegations were outrageous.” Later in the thread, december got attacked for blindly supporting the Bushies.
A second one was in a thread about gay discrimination. Hastur posted some statistic about the percentage of gays in America. december questioned the stats, but said that any discrimination based on sexual orientation was wrong. Because he questioned the stats, he was labelled a homophobe.
Yes, december can be overbearing and condescending. Yes, I disagree with about 90% of what he writes. But no, I do not think he is intellectually dishonest, and I enjoy locking horns with him.
What Sua said. I disagree with the large majority of what december posts. For a while there, it seemed like our sole respective purposes in GD were to take issue with everything each other said. But with the exception of the “[Non-conservative group claiming racism] is racist!” shtick, I find him generally thoughtful and a long way from Pit-worthy. I’d much rather see him fairly debated in GD than taken to task for such paltry sins here.
I think you’re onto something there, really - the overall tone of December’s posts in GD, including some significant depth on some topics along with some complete, startlingly-huge holes on major subjects that an adult would have been simply unable to avoid, along with some pretty juvenile cracks in totally-inappropriate circumstances, leads me to think something like that. The impression I get is of a bright, lonely teenager, desperate for some social acceptance somewhere but not getting it in IRL, trying to learn how to interact in the adult world, and using the Internet as a means. That’s consistent with clumsily trying on aspects of the persona of someone he does see as a role model - for instance, a well-regarded, thoughtful, articulate conservative who happens to be an actuary from NJ. That’s a compliment from him even more than from me, Izzy.
That’s not really a criticism; it’s a person who sometimes wants to learn but has trouble accepting the possibility of ever being wrong about what he believes he does know. The latter immaturity forces him to keep defending ridiculous statements in the face of debunking, or to ignore them or attempt to change the subject when unable. The result is to discredit the positions he is trying to support, unfortunately. I think that puts some burden on those adults he agrees with to try to “raise” him a little, with quiet (and sometimes private) explanations of what he’s doing. Those of us who usually disagree with him (I normally fall into that group) who keep rubbing his face in facts are doing our part already.
SuaSponte, I guess we have to disagree about December’s overall intellectual honesty, although there are indeed some examples of honesty to point to. There are too many counterexamples in this thread alone, let alone spread all over GD like tail-sprayed hippopotamus shit, to accept that statement.
