De'endee Mafia

[Normal_Phase]

Meh. After, yes, but not nearly enough. Red’s lock-in made it nine for Septimus, and Red himself only ever got to 8. I’m not sure you can really call that trying to save Septimus, under the circumstances. Not yet convincing.

[Normal_Phase]

Mental Guy, Diver, Hirka – I’m not really suspicious enough of Weedy or gnarly to care that much, but if you want to toss them in, feel free.

I have to go for a few hours.

[Askthepizzaguy]

@Normal_Phase

(As an aside, Pizza, that description ALSO implies a tracker. Did you notice at the time?)

Well, yes, but the description talks about “alive” which quite clearly and indisputably refers to a vigilante since septimus had no anti-lynch powers.

It’s a vigilante protection.

Level 5 assassin can defeat that protection. It all adds up.

[Askthepizzaguy]

@Normal_Phase

Meh. After, yes, but not nearly enough. Red’s lock-in made it nine for Septimus, and Red himself only ever got to 8. I’m not sure you can really call that trying to save Septimus, under the circumstances. Not yet convincing.

Then look at the day beforehand. Why did Diver single-vote septimus only to Double vote Red Skeezix the next day, and then single-vote Red Skeezix the day after?

-It can only mean that Diver was distancing from septimus,
-But didn’t really want him to die,
-Wanted to give septimus the best shot possible at life the next round,
-but didn’t want to become a suspect after Red Skeezix flipped townie because he wasn’t most responsible for the lynch.

I can *only *point out their scummy actions, I can’t give you a more perfect scenario where it’s more obvious than it already is. If their moves were even more obviously scummy they wouldn’t have done them. These didn’t even get picked on until now.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I did cover all of this in this post, 2304 by the way. I’m repeating myself.

[Askthepizzaguy]

@Normal_Phase

Mental Guy, Diver, Hirka – I’m not really suspicious enough of Weedy or gnarly to care that much, but if you want to toss them in, feel free.

**MentalGuy **wants him dead today, so does Weedy, and they’ve both seen the case for Red’s innocence. Nobody is biting. That means townies aren’t biting, and mafia aren’t biting. I believe Mental and Weedy have wanted Red Skeezix dead before, as well, but I didn’t finish going through the game in my last analysis, I stopped at the 1500 something post I referred to. You’ll have to double-check, but yesterday’s ShadowFacts lynch over Red Skeezix provides all the information you might need.

Diver, **Hirka **have both double-voted him before, one wants him dead today, and I think you’ll find that Hirka will lock in on Red Skeezix if no wagon arrives on MentalGuy. I make that prediction. This vote for MentalGuy looks to me to simply be “I’ll put my vote here for now so it doesn’t look like we’re too eager.”

Basically all I can see is that maybe gnarlycharlie could be mafia with Red Skeezix.

That’s all, really.

And seriously, while I know we’re looking for 100% everyone in the game wants him dead to change our minds, I’ve demonstrated that 90% of them do. That’s more than coincidental. Sorry it’s not 100%. I wish I could make everything nice and neat and tidy with a bow.

It’s really frustrating that I have to prove his innocence 1 way, with the beguiler role description, 2 ways, with the fact that he’s been inactive and didn’t bother to save his own neck, 3 ways, with the fact that he campaigned hard for septimus and hinted that his claim was wrong, then revealed that he’s a vigilante with no counterclaim, while dropping breadcrumbs that indicate he’s a vigilante, and showing you how completely bat---- insane bussing septimus to claim vigilante is as a strategy, 4 ways, by demonstrating that there’s basically nobody in the game who wants him to live, even when given reasons otherwise, even when major cases have been presented on others, and nobody town or scum is nibbling, oh except for gnarlycharlie.

It’s not 100%, I know, but we’re not being quite fair here, are we? That’s an unreasonable expectation, and being this skeptical and requiring these sorts of standards of proofs,

when we have 3 folks I’ve pointed out who are practically in bed with septimus’ corpse… And we’re doing nothing about them… And we know for a fact that some of these NPCs are not NPCs, but mafia scumbags… And all the NPCs except gnarly seem dead set on Red Skeezix dying… And if Red Skeezix is a vigilante, he’s the mafia’s NUMBER ONE target remaining… And he wasn’t a threat since he was being roleblocked before… And he was lynch bait… then it’s very clear that the mafia scumbags in this game want Red Skeezix to die.

Which means, if Red Skeezix is scum, then the plan since N2 has been:

1. Breadcrumb vigilante claim
2. Vote for septimus
3. Do whatever we can to lynch septimus
4. After septimus dies, do whatever we can to lynch Red Skeezix every round
5. Only continue to look more and more suspicious as the vig kills don’t show up

That’s one messed up plan.

And then when proven townie Askthepizzaguy defends his butt for days on end, with increasingly better proofs, the scumbags don’t even go for it.

That’s insane.

I already showed you why he’s innocent and I did it by vote behavior, by claim, by evidence of his claims, by mod-provided data which lends strong evidence for his claims, and by the fact that everyone wants him dead no matter what.

Now, no one is going to demand such standards of proof in an argument for why we shouldn’t lynch choie or Diver or Hirka. But we’re still not gonna do it, because apparently I need a screenshot of Red Skeezix’ role PM to defend him, and choie, Diver, Hirka can be swearing up and down that septimus was innocent, vote to save him, and do everything to not accuse each other, and go after whoever accuses their friends, but that’s not good enough.

I can’t lay it out any clearer than it is. The “case” against Red Skeezix must conveniently ignore a lot of information, and many of the arguments are beyond weaksauce.

And not trying to criticize, here, because obviously that won’t look good, but:

I found his unvote of ShadowFacts on day two weird and unnecessary. As if he realized a possible contradiction in terms between his two votes and was uneasy about letting that stand, even though no townie on earth would ever have called him on it or even noticed.
– He’s by far a better townie than to have been so damn certain that Jan was scum on the evidence offered as of day two (much less as of day one). Lack of time has him not showing his skills here, but he is a VERY good mafia player.
– He was hanging around at the end of day two, when Septimus saved himself.

This is not very solid stuff.

In your opinion his unvote was weird, he’s too good a townie to be sure someone is scum based on their Day Two squirming, and he happened to be there when septimus saved. So were a lot of people, because they did want to see who got lynched and what the result was, or they were recently voting or discussing.

4, 5, 6, or 7 lima beans doesn’t outweigh 1 anvil. You’d need to give me at least 40 of those lima bean reasons why Red Skeezix is suspicious to outweigh the beguiler role description ALONE, or the behavior of everyone else in the game towards him alone. And I have much, much more than that.

It’s not a Monty Python witch-weighing scale we’re using here, I hope?

Red Skeezix does NOT weigh the same as a duck. He’s not a witch.

[Askthepizzaguy]

When you lynch Red Skeezix today, you’re doing that with the blessing *and *encouragement and **stubborn insistence **of the actual mafia scumbags.

If nothing else gives you pause, that should. I rest my case.

[Stanislaus]

My original case against MentalGuy is here.

The original summary

@Stanislaus

So in sum: Lots of equivocation, lots of protests about how little he knows about scum, lots of condoning of lynching people for being suspicious or noisy. Some defense of septimus which I am quite suspicous of, but will wait for a role-flip before judging.

He replied here. Agreeing that he could be somewhat equivocal, disagreeing that he’d done any/most of the other things I said he’d done.

Since then, the only post that really trips me up is this:

@MentalGuy

Also Normal, I am not ignoring the case you made against me based on the septimus voting, but frankly, on some of that I was just plain wrong on my assumptions and I am having a hard time remembering what I was thinking at each step.

When I came on at the end of the Day and did not change my vote from him, though, I was strongly suspecting he was scum because of the very end of Day save he did (especially without explanation) and that his claim could easily be a fairly safe scum cover. As I said earlier, if I had had time to think it over, I think I would have switched my vote to Shadow, but that is neither here nor there in regards to septimus.

If I can sort out and remember what I was thinking earlier I will try to justify my earlier statements, even though they may be based on faulty premises or reasoning.

It’s a really “soft answer turneth away wrath” kind of reply. It doesn’t really challenge Normal’s claims, or refute them. It reads more that he hopes if he can temporise, the whole thing will blow over.

[Stanislaus]

@Askthepizzaguy

Well, yes, but the description talks about “alive” which quite clearly and indisputably refers to a vigilante since septimus had no anti-lynch powers.

It’s a vigilante protection.

Level 5 assassin can defeat that protection. It all adds up.

In the same way that “arcane” clearly and indisputably refers to a non-clerical power? I agree it’s suggestive of a vig, but it’s still just colour, and thus very open to interpretation.

[Normal_Phase]

unvote
vote: choie

to show I’m considering it. I’m really, really conflicted, though.

[Normal_Phase]

Hirka’s posts that mention Red, unfortunately I don’t have time to go through them.

@Hirka_T_Bawa

No death tonight! That’s great news! Go Town!!!

Now, about the accusation ShadowFacts has made about Red Skeezix, let me just play devils advocate for a moment. There are multiple reasons that there might not have been a death tonight.

[ol]
[li]Red is scum who was doing the kill tonight, and ShadowFacts saved his own life by roleblocking him.[/li][li]We have a doctor who guessed correctly on the night kill.[/li][li]ShadowFacts is really scum, and the scum decided to not kill anyone in order to play a trick, and make us lynch a townie.[/li][li]Some other reason I haven’t thought of[/li][/ol]

However, while I fear 3 could be a possibility, I’ve looked through Red Skeezix’s posts, (which there weren’t many), and his vote history (He has only voted for known town, or the safe votes of the day [Like Septimus]), and I’m not seeing anything that yells “TOWNIE” at me, and honestly, it looked like Red was trying not to say much at all.

So, for now, I’m going to:
Vote Red Skeezix

Because number 1 could be true, but even if number 2 is true, there is nothing in Red’s posts that make me doubt he might be scum.

Well, back to studying for my Law exam!

@Hirka_T_Bawa

Red Skeezix, can you post the PM of your failed attempt on septimus on night 2? (If you’re telling the truth that is).

@Hirka_T_Bawa

[OOG]I passed the NAPLEX I took Thursday! Woot! Took my law exam this morning (hope I passed!), and now only have the Georgia Wet Board on August 18th in the way of me getting my pharmacist license! Woot!!![/OOG]

Ok, quickly reviewing, I see Red had some questions for me.

Ok, looking at the vote history that Mental Guy posted, I see you’re actually one of the first votes on Silver Jan on day one. I wasn’t here on day one, so didn’t know all that led up to it, exept that I saw you voted for her, and she was 2nd in votes that day. I did see on day 2 (the day she got lynched), you voted in the middle of the pack, which I saw as a safe vote. You voted for Septimus on day 3 after his vote switching, which everyone (including me) voted him for at first. So, it was a safe vote.

When I said “safe vote” I meant that as in someone who had a case already on them, so it would have been safe to vote them if you are scum, and wouldn’t have to necessarily defend your vote.

Now, the fact that you are trying to OMGUS FoS me, I could take wrongly, but, you did the same thing in the last game we were in, Thundercats, when you disagreed with something I said, and where you were town after all. So, I’m taking that as a null-tell.

Now, while I haven't heard anything to make me take my vote off Red at this point, that could just because he "might" be town, and the scum is just sitting back laughing at us since we've lynched nothing but town so far, and "if" he is town, they like that we're doing all the work for them. Honestly, I think the day's talk has been too centered on just **Shadowfacts** and **Red Skeezix**. Even if one of them is scum, there is most likely is at least 3 others. Who else seems scummy to people?

I am looking forward to **Lightfoot** coming back, I'm really interested in what she (?) has to say about last night. 

Oh, and **ShadowFacts**, I would really like you to use the message power on someone, just to prove you have it. While it wouldn't prove you're town, it would help put some of my doubts to rest. And, I don't see what reason you have for not using it so far, as far as I can see, there is no point in saving it right now. And, the fact that you haven't complied with that one reasonable request, does give me pause.

@Hirka_T_Bawa

Ok, that actually makes sense… I didn’t think of that… So that’s why you’re saving it… I am willing to lock in my vote on Red Skeezix since I think he is scum more then I think you are scum… However…

Mods, If ShadowFacts uses his vote power on someone, will it be noticeable to us before end of day?

I have no problems locking in my vote, but I want to see the response first.

@Hirka_T_Bawa

Been busy, haven’t had time to catch up, but, I do see that lightfoot confirmed she got a message, so I believe shadowfacts. I only remember voting once, even thought astral says I’m locked in… but only one vote is counted… eiter way to be safe.
vote red skeezix

On phone please excuse typos.

@Astral_Rejection

Septimus (14): Red Skeezix [1295], Askthepizzaguy [1429], Stanislaus [1438], Askthepizzaguy [1444], Normal Phase [1447], Mental Guy [1468], Inner Stickler [1470], Inner Stickler [1470], Red Skeezix [1480], Stanislaus [1482], Weedy [1486], Weedy [1486], Suburban Plankton [1490], LightFoot [1502]

Red Skeezix (8): ShadowFacts [1258], Hirka T’Bawa [1260], Septimus [1276], USCDiver [1280], ShadowFacts [1416], Septimus [1489], Hirka T’Bawa [1517], USCDiver [1520]

ShadowFacts (1): gnarlycharlie [1404],

Mental Guy (1): Normal Phase [1447]

Lightfoot (1): choie [1406]

Locked in: Hirka T’Bawa, Red Skeezix, Askthepizzaguy, Inner Stickler, ShadowFacts, Stanislaus, Weedy

With these votes, Septimus would be lynched. Day ends in 8 minutes at 6 pm central time. As always, please check for errors.

@Hirka_T_Bawa

Hey guys, sorry I’ve been away all Night, My friends and family have kept me busy this weekend celebrating my passing two of the three tests I need to get licensed…

Ok, first, Woot! No NK! Go Town!!! Woot!!! (sorry, had to get the celebration out of my system)

Ok, as for the possibility of a paranoid doctor. My belief (or suspicion), is that the doctor started out paranoid, but, as he gains levels, he’ll lose that paranoia, and turn into a regular doctor. If that is the case, then I wouldn’t necessarily want him to claim yet.

As for who is out there, I currently believe 100% that Lightfoot is town (for obvious reasons), and I also believe 100% that ATPG is town, for two main reasons. First, he has been after Septimus since at least day 2, and there was no reason for a busing that early, and also his posts just sound town to me.

I’m leaning town about 75% on Normal Phase, I believe her role claim, and I see why she did it. Her posts also seem town, and she hasn’t done anything to make me doubt her.

I’m leaning town on ShadowFacts, his role claim just seems more believable as a town role then a scum one, and his message to Lightfoot at least proves he has the power he claimed.

As for Red Skeezix, I still believe he is most likely lying. I think the odds of him missing his target every night to be doubtful, and, when he claimed he targeted septimus his revealed PM said Septiumus was “Protected”. I’ve never seen a scum doctor, and I really doubt our doctor would protect someone right after their scummy vote change. However, I can believe his PM would have been true, if he targeted someone who was protected… Like Lightfoot.

Vote Red Skeezix

I need to look at Inner Stickler and SP more. ATPG, do you have a link or post number to your wall of words on them?

@Hirka_T_Bawa

I have to agree with this. Not only have we had no double deaths, we’ve had two nights in a row that there were NO deaths. There is no proof of his powers. While I’m still somewhat new, I have learned in my few games to see proof of a claimed power, and then judge it as making more since as a town or scum power. (P.S., thank you Normal Phase for bombing Zesial last game… Everyone believed his claim, only reason town won is because of your PFK role).

So, while I still sorta assume we might have a vig… the fact Red Skeezix hasn’t proved his power at all, in what now, 5 nights? Makes me doubt him. Though… I have to admit a slight nagging doubt because in my first game I assumed Red was scum, when he ended up town, and I only believed him at LYLO.

I really want to hear ATPG’s thoughts on his other targets then ShadowFacts…

@Hirka_T_Bawa

NETA: I agree with SF about no proof of power. That is what makes me doubt him. Honestly, the two reasons I double voted Red Skeezix last “day” is that I missed the entire arguments against septimus, his case wasn’t even around, I was then away (damn real life, did a quick review on my phone while at work), and when I checked right before end of day, I saw Lightfoot saying she got that private message… And since I believe the power is more likely town then scum, I saw the power, so just voted my previous vote to lock in. I honestly didn’t even think of Septimus.

[OOG] I have a doctors appointment tomorrow, and I have to work 40 hours before I get all into studying my basic math for the Georgia Wet Board… When is End of Day?[/OOG]

@Hirka_T_Bawa

Wow… What a day… Lots of information, not enough time to digest it! That’s what I get for playing a video game instead of immediately coming to check the Mafia thread…

Ok, I’m following ATPG here… Let me say, even with your wall of words, I like you around. I’ve always been more for following cases then making them, and I have to say, your cases make since, specially now that I trust you as town.

I’m believing Inner Stickler, mainly since his claim is what I expected of a doctor. Paranoid to begin with then becomes normal…

However, he claims to have blocked Lightfoot the previous nights, ok, I can expect that… but he didn’t block Lightfoot last night. While, ShadowFacts claims to have blocked ATPG, and Red Skeezix claims to be blocked. That means there are three blocks claimed… I can believe ShadowFacts has blocking power, and there is probably a scum blocker… Since IS claims he didn’t block last night, then who is the 3rd?

Since I’ve heard the arguments against ShadowFacts, and honestly, I don’t know why in the hell he decided to block ATPG last night (I can believe the block a claimed town vanilla to avoid screwing over a town power role, I don’t believe the blocking ATPG… He had a lot of town cred for the lynch of Septimus, I would have though Normal would have been a better “Safe” block)…

So, for now, I’m going to

Unvote Red Skeezix
Vote ShadowFacts

While after the events so far, I believe Red has a lower chance of being scummy then Shadow, I would rather another choice then just these two.

Well, got to go… My wife is YELLING at me to come to bed. (literally, two texts, and now came in room) so got to go.

@Hirka_T_Bawa

I don’t, honestly, this is only my 3rd game of Mafia, and I was subbed into 2 of them.. I am not the best at making cases, but, from my experience so far, I’m decent at evaluating cases. In the two previous games, I’ve never been that good at figuring out who is scum, but, what I have been good at it figuring out who I can trust as town… Honestly, the only one who has ever really thrown me for a loop is Normal Phase, who I really though was town in my first game, until I started having doubts at LYLO… Unfortunately in that game, while I would have voted with Red Skeezix (Who I was trying to kill most of the game, and was the other lynch candidate), the one confirmed townie left refused to change their vote, I followed their lead (with reservations), and town lost… And the 2nd game she was a PFK. So, I never know what to think about Normal Phase, except that she is a DAMN good player!

So, I try to look at y’alls data, and judge the case, even if I’m not good enough to make one on my own so far.

See, I’ve never liked lynching someone “just” because we want more info.. While I know that Town trades deaths for info, it just never seemed right to me. I’m more of one to vote who I think is actually scummy, I don’t necessarily like voting just to see if someone is telling the truth… ShadowFacts has proven all his claimed powers at this point. And since I really do think a universal backup is more likely then a scum stealing, I feel like I’m doing something wrong if I don’t:

Unvote ShadowFacts

I believe you that there really is… in actual “DnD”, however, I don’t know what Astral’s experience playing actual DnD is. He could be someone like me, who has never actually played DnD, but has played many games “Based” on DnD, which don’t differentiate between Arcane and Divine. While I’ve understood almost every term used so far in the color of this game without thinking, I never thought anything of the term “Arcane”, since to me it always just meant “Old Magic”, as in magic from before the current time period. I can’t base a vote Astral being an expert on DnD… Specially when it was Mahaloth who had the original idea for this game, and asked Astral to help him “Balance” the game. (Yea, I know that is meta gaming, sorry if I can’t help it)

If you honestly believe that Suburban Plankton is lying, then why didn’t you make a case against him? Personally, I think I would be much more receptacle to a case against a claimed watcher, who only has had results from claimed power / non-power people, and hasn’t actually provided any “New” information since he claimed. I would be much more willing to join a lynch bandwagon against SP then I would against a claimed doctor like IS. After All, the only independent verification of SP’s power is in Red’s posted PM about seeing someone tracking him… Which was pointed out by SP.

Oh, a claimed doctor is a perfect target for scum. I’m sure he will be their prime target the next couple nights. I figure it will be a WIFOM battle between the scum and IS as will he self-protect, or protect Lightfoot… Either way, I figure that tonight, there will be one of three options… 1. Lightfoot dies. 2. Inner Stickler dies, or 3. There is no NK. (Assuming everyone is telling the truth that is).

If something else happens, then my suspicions will be raised.

On Preview: Has LightFoot actually posted her role PM? I’m just wondering if the color on role blocking has to do with the role blocker, or if it might have to do with the type of action the player does. Obviously, a “Seer” will be using their mind, while an “Assassin” would be physically attacking their target. Maybe the type of role block only has to do with the type of action that is being blocked, not the blocker?

@Hirka_T_Bawa

Two answer two of your comments, first, as for the phone, have you ever worked in a pharmacy? I’ve been doing 12 hour days, busy in the morning, but then could have anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour without a patient. I have nothing better to do then check the SDMB. Before I got into Mafia, I just lurked in GQ and the other forums, answering a GQ occasionally. Now, I get a notice every time a post is made in the thread, so I check it… Especially right before night fall.

By the way, is this really a scum tell? You said to ask Normal, so I’m asking her.

Second, You did push me towards a vote. When I saw the vote change, it was your post mentioning:

(post 2103)

That really what made me throw in my vote last minute. When I saw the votes, I was tempted to let it go, but, this is what threw my vote. I figured ShadowFacts had used most of his powers, he only had one vote double, and one message, left. So, figured that would be better lynch then a town vig…

However… There was only one kill last night. I really want to hear what Red Skeezix did last night, and who he targeted.

In the mean time:

Vote MentalGuy

@Hirka_T_Bawa

Ok, I just reviewed your case against me, in post #2213… I’m still confused why I’ve suddenly become your lynch target number one. First, you were basing your arguments on “if” Red is scum (which I still have my doubts on, I’m going to wait on his report before I make a decision). One way or the other, still doesn’t explain why you want me all of a sudden.

The first three posts you quote you mention as pro townie, including my attack on Septimus about his early vote, remember, one of these past days I did double vote him before it was known he was town. Anyone have a list of last vote counts for people by night? Sorry, always been a bad note taker.

Your next comment is a post made right before I left for my NAPLEX, and at the beginning of the next day, you assume my “Go Town!!!” comments are an act, and I’m trying to bus Red, instead of letting the godfather septimus get lynched… While this can make some sort of sense (while false), remember I did double vote Septimus before. Why would I do that if I was on his team? And, what else is a townie suppose to say but “Go Town!!!” after not having a night kill? You want me to say Boo or something?

Then you complain that I’m on my phone, answered that previously… You might have a computer that can get to the dope at work, only computers I have are limited to Clinical Pharmacolgy, and various insurance companies web sites. The only way I can get to the dope while at work is via my phone… And I have a lot of down time… Specially when I’m a Grad Intern, and can just walk out for a cigarette break when I please (as long as no one is waiting on a script that is).

Then you assume I have PIS about the role of the doctor… which I remember you thinking I was the doctor because of, until I didn’t counter claim Inner. Trust me, just a good guess… Maybe I actually have some insight into the game? Also, you assume I’m bussing Red Skeezix… Very next post, you agree I was smart asking the confirmed townie on his thoughts on people other then the lynch leaders (which I don’t remember you giving good thoughts on… Besides the claimed doctor that is!)

Then you Mention my unvote of Red Skeezix, and my vote of ShadowFacts, saying while it was wrong, it sounded townie… Well, of course it is, since I am townie! Also, remember, at this point you have been talking about Skeezix’s insistence for awhile. I’m sorry if my votes don’t look great in retrospect, after I agree with YOUR arguments on someone… As I’ve mentioned before, this is only my 3rd game, 2 of those as a replacement. I’m not good at making arguments against people, but much better making decisions based off arguments made by people I assume are town. I thought you were town (after the first day at least), so listened to your wall of words, then LightFoot vouched for you, which just put you at 100% for me… So of course I’ll listen to the one confirmed townie in the game. Look at my last 2 games, I do the exact same thing (and I was vanilla town both times).

Then a complaint against my role PM… Can’t defend it, it was exactly what was sent by Astral when I subbed in… I will say in my defense though that is why I believed Normal Phase when she posted her role and claimed. (and why I see why she claimed when she did).

Then I defended your lynch choice, the claimed doctor (who explained his role exactly as I expected) Inner Stickler, and used Suburban Plankton’s role PM in my defense. And you say I “push” you to look at your assumed townie’s case of MentalGuy, who you said was a “good vote” in the quote previous. I will say, this is the first mention of SP in your case.

Your last two complaints are based on my not agreeing to vote on either case, and thinking ShadowFacts and Red Skeezix are both town, and refusing to get into the vote… Then, YOU talked me into taking a side, and you complain I made a vote to make the swing vote back to ShadowFacts. After I did exactly what I claimed I would, change the vote based on last minute changes… Honestly, when I wrote that originally, I was thinking a Septimus type last minute save, but you talked me into picking who I thought was the lesser of two evils of the townie lynches.

So… That is my response to your case against me. Ask me to clarify on anything… Honestly though, I still don’t know why you voted me. You were thinking all these other people were scum, and you kept mentioning if so and so is scum, or so and so is scum… I still don’t know why I ended up at he top of your list, instead of all the “so and so’s” you mentioned.

[Astral_Rejection]

Day ends in a little under 24 hours. Vote count coming when I get home from work.

[Red_Skeezix]

[OOG] Sorry I haven’t been around, I had an F&I war reenactment this weekend and pile of work awaiting me when I got home.[/OOG]

I wasn’t totally honest with my PM earlier in the game, didn’t want to reveal the weakness of my role.

[QUOTE=Astral Rejection]

As you stand there with Suburban Plankton’s blood on your hands, you realize that he could not possibly be one of the Lords of Slaughter. Time to end the mistakes.

(You have killed a Defender of De’endee. In your first post today you must vote for yourself, and every night after you will automatically target yourself for assassination.)

[/QUOTE]

I have to assume at this point that the hidden reveals are either a game rule, or a scum janitor can interfere with any night reveals. I assume since mine was the only kill last night that we’ll see another kill today.

[QUOTE=Astral Rejection]

Class: Warblade
Alignment: Defenders of De’endee
Role: Assassin
Win Condition: You win when all threats to the Defenders of De’endee have been vanquished.
Powers: You may kill one player each night. However, if you kill a Defender of De’endee, you must vote for yourself each day and target yourself each night until you are dead.

[/QUOTE]

I suppose I’ll see you guys in the spoiler boards.

**
vote Red Skeezix
vote Red Skeezix**

[Inner_Stickler]

Red Skeezix (7): [del]Normal Phase [2221][/del], choie [2223], USCDiver [2226], Weedy [2249], Mentalguy [2320], Stanislaus [2349], Red Skeezix [2373],Red Skeezix
Mental Guy (2): Normal Phase [2221], Hirka T’Bawa [2227]
USCDiver (1): [del]Askthepizzaguy [2230][/del], gnarlycharlie [2280]
Hirka T’Bawa (0): [del]Askthepizzaguy [2230][/del]
choie (4): gnarlycharlie [2280], Askthepizzaguy [2281], Askthepizzaguy [2321], Normal Phase [2370]

I believe this is an accurate if UNOFFICIAL vote tally. I assumed NPhase was unvoting skeezix when she voted for choie but I don’t know how Astral or Maha will count that post so the tally may be slightly different.

If red is town than Nphase, choie and USCDiver are looking pretty smelly with their 1-2-3 act and everyone just dropping a single vote on him are also not making me happy.

I haven’t yet seen anything that leads me to believe scum have a redirector but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one, I suppose. Could it be a scum ploy to get us to think he’s now harmless? Claim he gets blocked every night and then hang around every day just voting for himself? Also possible, I suppose. I need to think more about who I’d rather see dead, Skeezix or choie.

[Hirka_T_Bawa]

Interesting development with Red Skeezix. We haven’t seen any sign of a re director yet have we? At first thought think we should let Red live, and see if he kills himself or not… not worth wasting a lynch on him.

In the mean time, while I still think Mental Guy would be a better lynch, I’m willing to lynch choie. While I think her play could just because she’s new, (heck, I still consider myself new, and I have 2 games up on her), she could be a newbie scum also.

Vote choie.
[OOG]I have my Georgia Practical Exam on Thursday, and then will be going on vacation to Disney World! I’ll try to keep up with the reading, but most likely all my talking will be via my phone, so will be short and too the point. [/OOG]

[gnarlycharlie]

@Red_Skeezix

[OOG] Sorry I haven’t been around, I had an F&I war reenactment this weekend and pile of work awaiting me when I got home.[/OOG]

I wasn’t totally honest with my PM earlier in the game, didn’t want to reveal the weakness of my role.
I have to assume at this point that the hidden reveals are either a game rule, or a scum janitor can interfere with any night reveals. I assume since mine was the only kill last night that we’ll see another kill today.

I suppose I’ll see you guys in the spoiler boards.

**
vote Red Skeezix
vote Red Skeezix**

did you have to vote twice? i guess that’s academic now.

Unvote USCDiver
Vote choie

Locking in.

[MentalGuy]

Day 1

RedSkeezix - [del]Askthepizzaguy 137 225[/del]
Tom Scud/Diver - [del]Normal Phase 140 196[/del]
choie - [del]pedescribe 150 184[/del]
pedescribe - [del]Stanislaus 159 204[/del], Silver Jan 382
special ed - [del]Suburban Plankton[/del][del] 169 277[/del], [del]special ed 372 436[/del]
Kelly Criterion - [del]Normal Phase 196 338[/del], [del]ShadowFacts[/del][del] 203 360[/del], Stanislaus 204, MentalGuy 217, choie 247, Silver Jan 285, Scathach 293, Special Ed 295, TexCat 315, Suburban Plankton 342, LightFoot 361, Normal Phase 397, USCDiver 432, special ed 449
Koldanar/Hirka - [del]Scathach [/del][del]211 293[/del], Askthepizzaguy 225, MentalGuy 319, Romanic/Weedy 363, Scathach 411, Silver Jan 416
Normal Phase - KellyCriterion 213, [del]Silver Jan[/del][del] 227 274[/del]
Askthepizzaguy - gnarlycharlie 228, Koldanar/Hirka 238, septimus 248
Silver Jan - Red Skeezix 233, ShadowFacts 360, pedescribe 369, choie 419, [del]MentalGuy 429 431[/del], USCDiver 432, Suburban Plankton 433
Romanic/Weedy - [del]Silver Jan 324 366[/del]
septimus - Normal Phase 338, [del]special ed[/del][del] 371 372[/del]
Suburban Plankton - [del]special ed[/del][del] 436 449[/del]
Day 2
septimus - Askthepizzaguy 488, Askthepizzaguy 528, Normal Phase 658, special ed 680, Normal Phase 829, special ed 832
ShadowFacts - [del]Normal Phase 490 829[/del], [del]Red Skeezix 601 790[/del], Hirka T’Bawa 820, Hirka T’Bawa 826
special ed - [del]Stanislaus 531 591[/del], Silver Jan 721, Silver Jan 752, [del]Weedy 761 773[/del], TexCat 783
gnarlycharlie - MentalGuy 542, [del]Normal Phase 543 658[/del]
Koldanar/Hirka - MentalGuy 542
Normal Phase - [del]special ed[/del][del] 544 680[/del], choie 566, gnarlycharlie 649, ShadowFacts 812
Askthepizzaguy - special ed 544, pedescribe 553, pedescribe 553, [del]septimus[/del][del] 572 838[/del], [del]Weedy 611 740[/del], USCDiver 628
Silver Jan - choie 566, ShadowFacts 575, [del]special ed 588 832[/del], Suburban Plankton 595, Red Skeezix 601, Inner Stickler 610, Weedy 791, septimus 838, septimus 838
choie - Silver Jan 569, [del]Suburban Plankton[/del][del] 595 722[/del]
Koldanar/Hirka - LightFoot 597
USCDiver - gnarlycharlie 649, LightFoot 821
MentalGuy - Stanislaus 659
TexCat - Suburban Plankton 722
pedescribe - ShadowFacts 770
Day 3,
septimus - [del]Hirka T’Bawa 885 1091[/del], [del]Normal Phase 887 947[/del], Inner Stickler 888, Stanislaus 893, gnarlycharlie 959, MentalGuy 968, Red Skeezix 1065, USCDiver 1098
ShadowFacts - Hirka T’Bawa 885, Askthepizzaguy 1030, Red Skeezix 1065, Normal Phase 1080, Hirka T’Bawa 1091, TexCat 1192, TexCat 1192
choie - [del]Askthepizzaguy[/del][del] 905 988[/del], [del]Weedy 923 1205[/del], Normal Phase 1047
pedescribe - [del]Weedy 923 1044[/del]
Normal Phase - choie 930, [del]septimus[/del][del] 1009 1121[/del], [del]ShadowFacts 1090 1195[/del]
MentalGuy - gnarlycharlie 959
gnarlycharlie - MentalGuy 968
Stanislaus - [del]Askthepizzaguy[/del][del] 988 1067[/del]
TexCat - [del]Askthepizzaguy[/del][del] 988 1030[/del], Normal Phase 1007, Suburban Plankton 1014, septimus 1023, Weedy 1044, LightFoot 1109, Suburban Plankton 1167, septimus 1178, ShadowFacts 1195, ShadowFacts 1195, Weedy 1205, Inner Stickler 1210, Inner Stickler 1210
Suburban Plankton - TexCat 1018, [del]Askthepizzaguy[/del][del] 1067 1175[/del]
Askthepizzaguy - septimus 1121

Day 4
RedSkeezix - USCDiver 1698, ShadowFacts 1706, [del]Hirka T’Bawa 1745[/del] 1840, [del]Suburban Plankton 1748[/del] 1772, Stanislaus 1763, ShadowFacts 1955, choie 1976, Suburban Plankton 2098, Suburban Plankton 2098, Stanislaus 2114
Suburban Plankton - [del]Askthepizzaguy 1710[/del] 1790
ShadowFacts - [del]Askthepizzaguy 1710[/del] 1718, Red Skeezix 1719, [del]Askthepizzaguy 1721[/del] 1790, gnarlycharlie 1729, [del]Normal Phase 1761[/del] 2083, [del]Askthepizzaguy 1835[/del] 1972, [del]Hirka T’Bawa 1840[/del], Weedy 1909, MentalGuy 1913, Inner Stickler 1978, Inner Stickler 1978, LightFoot 1983, [del]choie 1985[/del] 1985, Normal Phase 2083, Normal Phase 2083, Hirka T’Bawa 2115, Hirka T’Bawa 2115
Inner Stickler - [del]Askthepizzaguy 1718[/del] 1721, [del]Askthepizzaguy 1791[/del] 1835, Askthepizzaguy 1939, Askthepizzaguy 1972
Weedy - [del]Suburban Plankton 1753[/del] 2098
choie - [del]Askthepizzaguy 1791[/del] 1835
MentalGuy - [del]Normal Phase 1947[/del] 2083, [del]Hirka T’Bawa 1969[/del] 2115

I updated this because I was trying to review GnarlyCharlie and Hirka and was not getting much read either way. So I thought looking at the vote record might help some. Red’s claim came while I was doing this and now I need to get to bed. I don’t know if I will have a chance to post again before End of Day, but I will try. I will be considering Red’s claim in the meantime.

[Inner_Stickler]

Argh.

Vote choie
Vote choie

[choie]

Poking my head up, though I’m still an unperson (and soon to be a dead unperson!). I made a little chart that I thought would better help me check people’s voting patterns – it’s a format that I haven’t seen done yet, though the compilations from folks like Mental Guy have been very useful too.

Anyway I hope this works okay and that I didn’t get any votes wrong. Sorry if I messed up. Assume bad reading ability, not malice.

			DAY ONE				DAY TWO				DAY THREE		DAY FOUR		DAY FIVE
Askthepizzaguy		Hirka/Koldanar			Septimus x2			ShadowFacts x2		Septimus x2		Inner Stickler x2
Choie			KellyCriterion, Silver Jan	Silver Jan, Normal Phase	Normal Phase		Lightfoot		Red Skeezix
Gnarlycharlie		Askthepizzaguy			Normal Phase, USCDiver		Mental Guy, Septimus	ShadowFacts		ShadowFacts
Inner Stickler		did not vote			Silver Jan			Septimus		Septimus x2		ShadowFacts x2
KellyCriterion		Silver Jan			lynched (Day 1)			 - 			 - 			 - 			
Hirka/Koldanar		Askthepizzaguy			ShadowFacts x2			ShadowFacts x2		Red Skeezix x2		ShadowFacts x2
LightFoot		KellyCriterion			Hirka/Koldanar, USCDiver	TexCat			Septimus, USCDiver	ShadowFacts
Mental Guy		Hirka/Koldanar			Hirka/Koldanar, Gnarlycharlie	Septimus, Gnarlycharlie	Septimus		ShadowFacts
NormalPhase		KellyCriterion, Septimus	Septimus x2			ShadowFacts, TexCat	Septimus, Mental Guy	ShadowFacts x2
pedescribe		Silver Jan			Askthepizzaguy x2		did not vote		did not vote		did not vote		
Red Skeezix		Silver Jan			Silver Jan			Septimus, ShadowFacts	Septimus x2		ShadowFacts
Weedy/Romanic		Hirka/Koldanar			Silver Jan			TexCat			Septimus x2		ShadowFacts
Scathach		KellyCriterion, Hirka/Koldanar	murdered (Night 2)		 - 			 - 			 - 			
Septimus		Askthepizzaguy			Silver Jan x2			TexCat x2		Red Skeezix 		lynched (day 4)
ShadowFacts		Silver Jan			Normal Phase, pedescribe	TexCat x2		Red Skeezix x2		Red Skeezix x2
Silver Jan		Hirka/Koldanar, pedescribe	Special Ed x2			lynched (Day 2)		 - 			 - 			
Special Ed		KellyCriterion x2		Septimus x2			murdered (Night 3)	 - 			 - 			
Stanislaus		KellyCriterion			Mental Guy			Septimus, Texcat	Septimus x2		Red Skeezix x2
Suburban Plankton	KellyCriterion, Silver Jan	Silver Jan, TexCat		TexCat x2		Septimus		Red Skeezix x2
TexCat			KellyCriterion			Special Ed			ShadowFacts x2		lynched (Day 3)		 - 			
USCDiver/Tom Scud	KellyCriterion, Silver Jan	Askthepizzaguy			Septimus		Red Skeezix x2		Red Skeezix

If this isn’t easy to read, you can also look at this PDF version here. Sorry for the small print, it was the only way I could get it on one page.

Hopefully this is correct. I looked at all the final official vote counts, and then added/subtracted any later stragglers that came before the end of the Day.

For me, the person who stands out the most is Hirka, who seems to have been gunning for ShadowFacts for weeks. Also pedescribe’s record is ridiculous – why the heck does he even join these games if he’s not going to partake at all? Of course, he could be hanging out in the scum board… I guess that’s one way to stay under the radar and avoid having your record thrown in your face.

Anyway. Just thought I’d toss this into the mix, FWIW. It might be my last act as a citizen of this bloodthirsty town, so at least maybe I’ll be remembered as having done something useful, once.

Okay, those who are ignoring me can stop averting their eyes now.

Edited to add: Et tu, Inner Stickler? And I was the one who was defending you, too. Dayum that’s cold.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Well, I told myself I wasn’t going to check this board because it tends to suck me in and then I can’t leave.

Red showing up and claiming he sent in a night action disturbs me. When did he send it in? During the day phase, ahead of time? Because if he sent it in during the night phase, he did it as a mafia scumbag, not a townie. No townie I know of doesn’t log in to send in their vig kills.

Plus, the “weakness” of his role seems way too handicapping to me. In order for him to level up at all he’s got to lynch scumbags or murder them. Well, how does he get to level 5 and kill the godfather? If he has to self-murder when he misses and hits a townie, then he has to not hit anyone or he has to hit flawlessly.

That’s quite the unusual game mechanic.

I could imagine he could level up as he’s being roleblocked or if he hits someone who is defended, because then he still used his night action. Still, that’s very handicapping for a vigilante, and such roles are already fairly handicapped given that if they don’t guess correctly they kill townies.

Assuming I’m an idiot, which by the way I do assume even when I make big cases on people, because y’know I don’t actually think I’m infallible, and stuff… this could simply be a bluff by a mafia Red Skeezix to gain sympathy and get himself spared.

Still, if it is such a tactic, that’s ice cold. Not very well calculated, but ice cold. The problem with that tactic is that if Red Skeezix *doesn’t *kill himself tonight, then he’s either mafia and needs to be lynched (and if so, preferably today) or he’s townie and they’ve blocked him so we lynch him anyway.

What do they stand to gain here? The nearest I can figure is that they lynch a townie choie, expose Red as scum tonight, lynch him tomorrow, etc… they gain an additional few kills out of this move and end up distracting the town discussion even further into the endgame.

Makes a lot of sense coming from scum. That said, it would look identical to what we’re seeing here if he did indeed have the role handicap he’s suggesting, and he doesn’t escape lynch tomorrow when he fails to self-kill. Heck, the mafia could block him so that he doesn’t do it so we lynch him anyway.

I really wish Red had just remained silent. This move looks a lot like a lie and a gambit to get a townie choie dead, shutting me up in the process, oh and by the way, save his own ass. As much as I’m sure that Diver or Hirka still need to be looked at, this move puzzles me.

If he’s townie, he honestly would have been better off just lying about his weakness, and made up some excuse like “I don’t have time for this game and this is the only way to silence my critics, vote myself”. At least that’s how I would have played it.

If he’s townie, the odds of him killing himself are low, and if he does that’s bad news anyway. If he doesn’t he was blocked, so he’s still lynch bait. As such, if he’s just going to be lynched anyway, and he’s also going to count as a negative vote in tallies where the scums can use him to escape, then he’s become a liability. Even more so.

Lynching him here would cut our losses, expose him if he’s scum, and finally allow us to move on to other suspects, without being subjected to a gambit where the scums block him and leave him alive so he can be lynched later.

The only possible bright spots in this whole mess were if we lynched him immediately if he’s mafia, or, if he’s town, we decided to never ever lynch him and just go straight for the scums, ending the game as fast as possible.

And this would be a very hard decision. You lynch him and he’s townie, it’s one of the last mistakes you’ll ever make. You don’t lynch him and he’s mafia, it’s one of the last mistakes you’ll ever make. You don’t lynch him and he’s townie and he’s telling the truth, if you make other mistakes the scums can use him as a self-saving device and pile on top of his wagon in any future round, because he acts like a negative vote to any wagon against a scumbag.

He’s a massive liability, but lynching him as town would be at least as bad. More importantly, not lynching a scumbag would be the worst case scenario here.
So I have to go back and think about my own case and how much I believe in it.

1) The beguiler role description- yes, indeed, Red’s role would be easy to fake if he is a lord of slaughter. That said, a premeditated plan to bus septimus to make Red Skeezix look good is still the worst plan I’ve ever heard of.

If it was the opposite, however… bus Red Skeezix to make septimus look good, to try to save septimus the mafia godfather, make it look like Red was the liar and by default, “septimus would be telling the truth”, then yes… that’s a plan that could make sense. And the beguiler role description could **just **be color, even though I don’t believe that. I still believe the description, which comes from Astral, implies that the beguiler could withstand being tracked or scanned, and that he could survive assassination attempts. Two powers. Otherwise it’s a very lackluster role in a game with promoting power roles that gain additional powers. That’s weak.

2) Inactivity as a cause for lack of kills- well, by Red’s own admission, this is false for last night.

Now here’s the problem. If the scumbags didn’t kill Suburban Plankton, then who did they kill? Or, is their kill something that got turned into a Day Kill so that they can evade the doctor’s protection?

If the first one is the case, then they killed no one, or Red Skeezix is mafia.

If the second one is the case, then they still only have one kill, but the doctor is even more useless than before to stop it.

3) Who wants Red Skeezix dead counterindicates that he’s mafia-

Well, here, this part is looking sketchier, but there’s still some merit. Septimus was guilty and Red Skeezix looked townie (at least to me) when the beguiler died. If he was scum, why did folks continue to try to lynch him if they were also scum? They need him. double-bussing is almost unheard of, and the lack of kills puts the scum team in dire straits against the townie power roles which have all been seemingly proven except septimus and Red Skeezix.

I have thrown the kitchen sink against the idea that Red Skeezix is mafia, and that has provided the necessary opportunity for his teammates to stop bussing him and try to kill a townie.

IN THAT CASE, if Red Skeezix dies and flips scum, then the folks jumping on choie here that haven’t been proven townie look really bad. Which means those could be the leads we’re looking for. But if you look at before this round, there was still a lot of support for killing Skeezix coming from all directions. It was a fight, tooth and nail, to stop him from dying every round.

[ul]
[li] You could look at who agreed with me, and see if it was consistent.[/li][/ul]
So, if it so happens I’m a moron and Red Skeezix was in fact mafia, you now have much better leads on who his teammates are. In which case I’ve become a Homer Simpson, saving the day through my own stupidity and dumb luck rather than cleverness. I can live with that… kinda.
4) The person Red Skeezix claimed to attack was someone we failed to lynch

One of my early reasons for supporting Skeezix’ claim; I didn’t mention it recently but the thing was, going after septimus and then ShadowFacts made a lot of sense because septimus was uber-scummy and ShadowFacts barely survived a round where there were late pile-ons onto TexCat, possibly indicating (at the time) that Shadow was scum.

That said, going for ShadowFacts if Red Skeezix is mafia makes a whole lot of sense as a scum move. Bussing septimus doesn’t make as much sense, but if the point of Red’s moves was to bus himself to spare septimus, then it does make more sense.

The problem lies where they stuck with that plan even when septimus died. They shouldn’t have still been trying to lynch Skeezix then. And some of them should have leaped at my defenses of Skeezix sooner than today. In which case, then it’s in the records somewhere. gnarlycharlie, could it *really *be you? :eek: I had basically no suspicion or case on him before.
What I am still confident on is that Hirka’s moves before today, and even now, make him look very scummy. And Diver looks just as bad.

I’m not sure if choie and Red would be scum together, but…

See next post.