De'endee Mafia

The Game Room
1961

I’m getting through it, Pizza. It’s going to take a while. But at first skim, if you’re using wikipedia articles on D&D as evidence, I’m going to take a wild stab and say that your case is not 100%.

I’m not saying Inner Stickler is Town or Scum. I don’t know. What I am saying is that we’re going to get a lot more information by lynching Red or me. One of us is lying, so when one of us gets confirmed by death, we’ll know (within acceptable parameters for a mafia game) what the other is. We’ll also be able to better parse out what happened at Night, which will be helpful in determining the believability of other claims. Seriously, take a breath. Just a short while ago you were screaming to rafters that you had proved that Red and I were both Town. I’ll let you know what I think of your case on Stickler.

1962

If ShadowFacts is guilty, I could sort of see it going down where they know he’s screwed, and they figure if they bus him hard enough, and claim something “don’t lynch me” enough, they can eke through the rest of the game by getting rid of the major power roles and hoping the town is too chicken **** to lynch a claimed doctor.

If he’s innocent, then I gave them fair warning I was going to do this today and they scrambled to come up with a good cover story. And it’s a very good story, except that it conveniently confirms each other’s story and doesn’t do a whole lot else. It looks very well scripted to make darn sure that they both don’t get lynched, and that it has more credibility because a tracker who just became essentially a second detective confirmed it too. And if Lightfoot tries to confirm it, they can kill her, because they have that kind of power.

It’s absolutely perfect. And Inner Stickler is da bomb, and Suburban Plankton is da bomb, and I have the greatest respect for these scums. I was even fooled by it for several hours.

I offer my sincere congratulations to whoever masterminded that scripted response to my accusation they knew was coming. That was among the best I’ve seen.
My** lens of truth scam** was on that level though, so I’m prepared for that level of chicanery. You can’t completely con a good con artist.

1963

Thing is, that Red or Skeezix thing really does depend on Inner being a lying scumbag. If Inner is truthful, both of you could also be town. Right?

What about Suburban Plankton, Shadowfacts? Would you lynch him? Pizza’s pointed out a whole lot of scummy behavior over the game, including in the posts about Inner. His night actions are 100% convenient or make no sense, and Inner himself has for the most part contradicted one of them as taking place (minus some yet to be explained shenanigans). And don’t get me started on the “two godfathers” business, which in a 21 player game makes considerably more sense to me as a caught scum poking the guy who’s causing his pain than as someone who’s paranoid about such a possibility or even just joking.

1964

You guys are nuts.

He claimed Doc. We don’t have counter-claim. Against that you have the theory that:

  1. Maybe we don’t have a doc - and maybe scum would gamble on that.
  2. The detail in the colour doesn’t match canon - and there’s no way the mods fluffed an adjective.
  3. The blocking colour sounds hostile - and maybe that’s not because scum were blocking Lightfoot too.
  4. After you’ve started being suspicious of him, Inner starts thinking that he might be lynched.

Maybe, maybe, maybe. I’ll need a lot more than that to lynch a claimed Doc.

1965
  1. Pedescribe could be the town doctor, and scum could have just recently found that out (opening up the possibility that Inner Stickler could turn a scum doc or scum roleblocker role into the cover role he’s had bouncing around in his head since day two).
  2. Inner decided not only that he might get lynched, but also that this made the scum likely to leave him alone – and this, devil’s advocate business aside, is on very spurious grounds. Even if the scum have two roleblockers right now (Skeezix telling the truth), as soon as they lose one more player their ability to lock down Skeezix and Lightfoot (and still kill) vanishes. Unless they’re eager to risk cop scan or vig kill, they have to get rid of Inner Stickler before this happens. Which likely means tonight, and they’d probably wish it could even be sooner.

If scum have only one roleblocker (as is the implication of your own belief that Red is scum), I suppose they do have a tiny bit more leeway – they’d have to lose two players or the roleblocker himself before their ability to block Lightfoot and kill someone else on the same night would be compromised.

(This is all assumign four scum total.)

If we want to avoid all claimed power roles and let this mess ride for one more night in the hopes that something clears it all up finally, I would prefer to lynch Mental Guy. I still find his approach to Septimus on day two to be incredibly scummy. He bussed on dubious reasoning, and when called on it, didn’t really address the criticism. He’s played incredibly safely. He’s not touching this Red/SF debate (or pretty much any of the other big issues) with a ten foot pole, minus the odd content-free “i’d rather vote for ___” sort of thing. He is my strongest suspect on behavioral grounds, if only I could get anyone at all to consider it.

If we’re willing to go for power roles (but not all of them), I want to see Suburban’s flip.

If it must be SF or Skeezix, I’m still leaning SF but want to see your case against Skeezix again before I decide. I don’t think it’s impossible that they are both town if Inner is telling the truth, though damned if I can remember my own logic on that one. I still find SF intrinsically scummy. I still find Red hard to figure.

1966

Oh, and
7. My biggest reason for wanting a paranoid doc to claim was due to the light it might throw on SF vs Skeezix and whether we might want to lynch neither, but I don’t remember Inner saying anything about it.

Now can anyone remind me why regular doc = SF or Skeezix scum, but paranoid doc = maybe not?

1967

Yeah, I never said I used arcane magic so if that’s a problem for you, go talk to SP.

1968

I mean, look at this. So much going on, even many of the top suspects workign their hind ends off and giving all appearances of actually being able to think about these difficult (for scum) topics, and this from Mental Guy:

A vanilla claim, a self-restriction of vote choice to one of two parties without giving his own take on the reasons why this is the best idea, and a choice of ShadowFacts of those two for a never-supported reason of “more scummy” (and the extra votes are scary, which they are, but that’s hardly reason to vote someone).

SAFE. And consistent with the hundred other “SAFE”'s I’ve labelled him with. Anyone remember my last case from last game (I’m forgetting the name of the player)? I argued that she could make cases, but wasn’t doing so? And she was scum? Same thing here – there was nothing wrong with day two gnarlycharlie case he made. But gnarly came down hard on it, and MG has done pretty much no scumhunting since. Certainly no cases. And if that’s not the reason, then nothing since Septimus pulled his scummy saving move and MG (I’m arguing) had to bus.

SAFE. “Just trying to come up with ideas” but he implicates nobody by name.

OK here’s some names, but there’s no reason. Why weedy or choie, other than them being new, and new players maybe explaining the lack of kills? What rationale?

And I’ll add that whether Red is scum (unable to kill separately) or not (currently being sat on by a second scum blocker), this statement is safe for a scum MentalGuy.

Lots of words saying nothing about who is scum.

Meaningless (or at a stretch, apologetics for IS) comment on color. Actually I take back the meaningless. I think it likely he was trying to accomplish somethign by saying this, given that the “though that is unusual around here” line is so strongly contradicted by everything that’s been shown about this game so far, from write-ups to result PMs. ETA: In my opinion that means it’s a nervous tic, that he’s saying something that otherwise makes him nervous to say.

1969

I have to say, normal is making a lot of sense on MentalGuy. I’m definitely seeing him playing it safe.

vote mentalguy

Anyone have a current vote count?

1970

A divided tally just isn’t going to cut it, De’endee Defenders.

You’ve got ShadowFacts locking in 4 votes on Red Skeezix, which will serve as the escape lynch today unless the town stands united on a different suspect. It’s too easy for the scums to pile on Skeezix at the last minute, especially with unlocked votes.

I’m not voting Skeezix and I seriously question the loyalty/sanity of anyone who does.

ShadowFacts is a decent alternative lynch. I said decent, I didn’t say it was the best. He should be the default lynch if I can’t convince any of you on Inner Stickler. The major concrete reason I can give is that the scum godfather went after TexCat instead of ShadowFacts when he was near death himself, and ShadowFacts would have been an easier lynch.

MentalGuy, I’d say, perhaps a fine vigilante or scan choice. There’s nothing really solid on him except some cautious play. But I really don’t feel he’s the best choice for today.

Inner Stickler, I can see people backing away from this because of the word “wikipedia”. Fine, consult a danged DnD manual, the information is the same. Don’t handwave away something as tangible as the difference between arcane magic and divine magic when the game DnD makes a big fat honking deal out of it. There’s little overlap between these kinds of magic, and they require different classes entirely to pull off. Even an amateur like me knows that. Discrediting the case because I happened to use wikipedia as a convenient reference is dishonest or sloppy.

People are also skittish about lynching a claimed but not counterclaimed doctor. Yeah? Well Red Skeezix is a claimed and not counterclaimed vigilante. ShadowFacts is a claimed and not counterclaimed universal backup role who has actually demonstrated special ed’s powers. Septimus was a “Paladin” who turned out to be the Godfather. The blocking descriptions have been the same for three nights, and the claimed “Tracker” caught this supposed Cleric using OBVIOUSLY NOT CLERICAL spells.

I need folks to be brave.

And Normal, I need a verdict. Take a gulp and take a breath and go ahead and render judgment on Inner Stickler. Vote-worthy or not.

1971

I would vote him over most of the people in the game. I would not vote him over Mental Guy or Suburban. I would consider voting him over Shadowfacts but ultimately might decide the other way.

But it’s not me you need to convince.

And that’s about all I can stand to write right now because I am having a godawful day.

Sorry to everyone.

1972

I don’t believe I’ll convince anyone. They must look at the data for themselves and decide. They may play this game however they wish; they can play it safe, and remove one person, then another, and then another, and lead up to the paranoid not-paranoid cleric doctor, or if they have reason to lynch said “cleric” they can vote for said cleric now.

I’m not here to force anyone to play the game my way, or force them to make calls they don’t feel confident making. It’s up to everyone else to decide their fate. I’m choosing mine.

If you had said you used arcane magic, you’d have been lynched by now. The thing is, a claimed (and not counterclaimed :o) tracker has stated that he saw you with your hand in the arcane cookie jar.

Now either that tracker is telling the truth and you’re a wizard/mage/sorcerer and therefore guilty, or that tracker is telling a big honking lie. Thing is, the tracker is telling this big honking lie to save your butt. I believe he fully intended to defuse the case I was making on you, and he was fairly successful, except his defense plus yours put together actually serves as incriminating evidence. And in no way do I believe that his testimony was actually supposed to incriminate you, so I believe his intent was to prevent your death. Since it incriminates you, that makes him a guy who is either telling lies to save a scumbag, or telling the truth to unwittingly save a scumbag.

So, here we go again, I’ll take the lead on this one, and I’ll urge townies to either follow along, or don’t. Don’t try to do both. Dividing the votes is suicide. If you don’t want to go for Inner Stickler, you’ve got my blessing on taking down ShadowFacts instead. Don’t lock in the votes until you’ve discussed it and are ready to decide.

I am ready to decide for myself. To me, the game is here to be played, and the scums will play in such a way that the choices that we must make to win the game will be the hardest ones. And the lies they will tell will be the sweetest, and they will count on our trepidation, our division, and our fondness for “paladins” and “clerics” and “defenders” and men in white robes who will rescue us from the big bad evil mafia.

The safety blanket of having watchful eyes protecting you at night, seeking out the evil, it’s comforting. But it is dangerous. And those who mean to harm us the most will indeed reassure us that they are closely guarding us from evil.

I cannot wait for others to win the game for me with special powers. I must try to lynch whoever I think is scum. And there’s enough evidence now for me to conclude that Inner Stickler must hang.
*And the earth becomes my throne
I adapt to the unknown
Under wandering stars I’ve grown
By myself but not alone
I ask no one

And my ties are severed clean
Less I have the more I gain
Off the beaten path I reign
Roamer, wanderer
Nomad, vagabond
Call me what you will

But I’ll take my time anywhere
I’m free to speak my mind anywhere
And I’ll never mind anywhere
Anywhere I roam
Where I lay my head is home
Carved upon my stone
My body lie, but still I roam*
I think Inner Stickler is bluffing. I call that bluff. Let’s see that Cleric card.
**unvote: ShadowFacts
vote: inner Stickler
vote: inner Stickler
**
Confirming Lock on Inner Stickler.

1973

I’ve finally finished reading the transcript of last night’s episode of the “Normal & Pizza Show”, and I’ve got a few comments.

First, regarding my choice of targets:

At Level 1, the only information I received from my investigations was “did something/did nothing”. So if I got a result of “did something” I would know the person was either a Power, or the Scum killer. And if I got a result of “did nothing” the person was either Vanilla Town, Vanilla Scum who didn’t kill, or a Power who chose not to act that Night.

With that in mind I tried to pick targets I thought would be likely to have a power, because a “positive” result gave information that was more likelty to be useful in the future. Night 1 I went back and forth between **Pizza **and Ed, ultimately choosing Pizza. Night 2 I chose Ed for the same reason.

Night 3 I was still only at Level 2, so I have not received any ‘advanced’ abilities. Again, my choice was “try to catch someone doing something, or someone doing nothing”. I chose again to track someone I thought would “do something” and that was ShadowFacts.

By Night 4 I had reached Level 3, where I would also learn the type of action taken. I still wanted to track someone I thought would be doing something, so going into the Night my top choices were

LightFoot, who I was pretty sure would be “investigating” if in fact she was able to do anything at all
Red Skeezix, who would be “killing”; this wouldn’t answer the pertinent question of his alignment
ShadowFacts, who would be “blocking” if anything; like Red, this wouldn’t tell us about his alignment

After **Pizza **went on at great length about how he had figured **Inner Stickler **for the Doc, but had then decided he was Scum, I thought he might be a better option. I didn’t believe at the time that a Scum Doctor was at all likely (and still don’t for the record), and I figured there was no way a Town Doc was going to fail to protect either LightFoot or himself, so if I got saw **IS **“protecting” then he was the Doc, and if I saw him “doing nothing” he was Scum.

Maybe my choices were sub-optimal; maybe they were downright ‘bad’; maybe some of the rest of you would have done better with the role. Or maybe not.
Second, regarding “Arcane” magic and the Cleric:

Pizza, I see where you’re going here, but remember that we are not *actually *playing Dungeons and Dragons here; we’re just playing Mafia. I don’t think you can insist that all terms used in this game strictly follow the rules and conditions set down by Gary Gygax and friends. I don’t suggest that we “handwave it away”, but I also don’t think that potential ‘misuse’ of the word “Arcane” by the mod should be used as a basis for lynching someone. Is there really something in Inner Stickler’s ***actions ***that you find objectionable, or is it just the ***descriptions ***that you don’t like? The former is a valid basis for a case; the latter not so much so.
Third, regarding claims and counter-claims, and which ‘non-counter-claimed’ person we should Lynch Today:

I want to look at all of the current claims and consider the risk/reward analysis on each of them. That is: what do we gain by lynching this person if we’re right, and what do we lose if we’re wrong? That’s going to take a bit of time, but I hope to be done by this evening my time.

1974

That’s just the problem, SP. By Night Three you knew – everybody knew – that Shadowfacts had a power he had no reason not to use. What kind of result did you expect, and what did you think it would tell you?

1975

In hindsight, you’re right. I made a bad choice that Night. I did expect that **ShadowFacts **would probably do “something”, whether he was Town or Scum. I should have picked a more ‘obscure’ target, and maybe I would have gotten lucky and caught them doing something.

Remember, I wasn’t going to find out what he did in any case, I was only getting an “action/no action” result. So it wasn’t as though it was possible for me to catch someone “in the act”. The best I could hope for was to see someone doing “something” and have that person later claim Vanilla, and be able to out them at that point.

Which, as I just said, is probably what I should have done. But I didn’t. I was more concerned at that point with simply getting my action in and trying to find a Scum the following Day, so that my power might not be so hampered.
Out of curiosity, do you think there was a particular person who would have been a good target for me that Night? Or do you just think **ShadowFacts **wasn’t it?

1976

Well, I might as well pipe up (for all the help it offers to my team*). First, thanks to Astral and Mental Guy and Suburban Plankton for the encouragement and defense. I’d thank pizza too, for ascribing so much cleverness and manipulation to my gameplay, except that his compliments only make me feel worse, 'cause he’s basically saying that it’s simply not possible to be as flaky and horrible a player as I am without in truth being the second coming of Macchiavelli. Alas, the all-too-sad truth is that yes, it really is possible for someone to be as bad at this as I am!

Suburban Plankton is right: I am in over my head, and the reason I’ve remained silent for most of the past week or so isn’t because I’m evading scrutiny, it’s because I’m embarrassed to bring so little to the game, and also to be so confuzzled and perplexed by the WIFOMing and role stuff.

Finally, for those who think my telling LightFoot not to scan me was scummy, I’ll just say that if I were scum, I’d tell her to definitely scan me, and would be delighted if she did so. ‘Cause then she’d be wasting her move on a boring ol’ townie. Of course, since I am townie, I’m telling her not to waste her scans on me and cutting out the hypothetical middleman.

Wrap your mind around that bit of WIFOM!

As far as who I’m gonna vote for this round… I’m just not sure. I’ve chosen wrong each time, although my vote on the last Day wasn’t really an accusation, it was an attempt to get more info out of LightFoot.

Among the ShadowFacts / Red Skeezix / Inner Stickler debate, I’m basically at the point of tossing a coin. I disagree with pizza’s suspicions of IS for the simple reason that part of his reasoning is sort of like his reasons for thinking I’m scum – that is, that IS is just too townie to be believed. Since I know he’s wrong about me, I think he’s wrong about Inner Stickler too.

Between ShadowFacts and Red Skeezix, my inclination is to believe ShadowFacts. (I know, I know, this apparently means I’m scum!) The reason for this is simply that everything he says adds up to me, at least his PMs and so on. Whereas Red Skeezix seems to be an incredibly unlucky vigilante (similar to LightFoot, really; we seem to have indescribably bad luck in our power role usage here in De’endee!) and he’s also less vocal, which makes me think he’s lying low.

Yes, I know that makes me a big ol’ hypocrite because I’ve been lying low. But I know my reasons for that: embarrassment and confusion. Red doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt with me for that, 'cause I’ve seen him play before and I seem to recall him being more chatty. Although maybe that’s too meta a reason to mistrust someone? I dunno.

Which leaves other candidates:

Weedy, I don’t know enough about. S/he doesn’t trust me, which naturally puts me in suspicion of her/him, but that’s a silly reason not to mention a hint of OMGUSing. S/he seems to be very untalkative, though I do understand out-of-game reasons can cause this type of gameplay. Does anyone have any reason to mistrust Weedy?

Normal Phase, well, no one seems to have made a case against her except me, and that was back on Day 2, I think. It seems to be sacreligious to think she’s scummy, and I don’t quite see why she’s been under no suspicion whatsoever, except pizza vouching for her, which means nothing because though they’re BFFs he can’t be certain she’s town. In fact, the only way he could be certain about her is if they’re both scum. Which we know they aren’t, since we’re taking LightFoot’s scan as gospel. But at the end of the day I don’t have anything but that infamous early claim to really use against her as an accusation, and again, no one but me thinks that was anything suspicious. I can’t argue the contrary so I guess she’s off the table.

Mental Guy. The sole real accusation against him seems to be that he’s playing it “safe.” Since most of the things he’s doing – hedging his bets, being cautious, giving folks the benefit of the doubt – are the same things I do, I just can’t find it in me to point the finger at him. I’m willing to be a hypocrite but there are limits. :slight_smile: But seriously, I don’t remember his behavior in other games well enough to recall if he was similarly cautious back then. So no vote here.

Stanislaus: I like him, just like Suburban Plankton; I just like the way they play the game and elaborate/explain their arguments. … which, considering my judgment skills, probably means he’s a second Godfather or something. No clue which way to vote.

pedescribe. Well, he’s the ultimate non-factor in this game, isn’t he? The true puzzle wrapped in an enigma smothered in secret sauce. This makes him a rotten townie but an excellent scum player. He’s so stealth he’s not just flying under the radar, he’s flying through the radar and the radar still can’t see him! Definitely an option.

Hirka: Almost forgot him/her. I’ve got no real feel yet. See pedescribe. As I recall, people were kinda suspicious of the person Hirka subbed in for – Koldenar, wasn’t it? – but that was so far back, I doubt guesses then were of any use now.

Of all the suspects, I guess the one I’m gonna go with now is the one that’ll get me the most grief from certain dough-and-tomato-sauce-based treats. But I need to get a vote down on ‘paper’ already, even if I end up changing my mind over the course of the next couple days, so…

Vote Red Skeezix

  • townies, for those keeping track. :slight_smile:
1977

You already had a vote on Inner Stickler (Post 1939).

Triple-voting is, of course, a well known and notorious Scum Tell.

:wink:

1978

The days are just too long for you aren’t they. You come up with great cases but then you talk yourself out of them and down false trails. S’okay, I forgive you.

Meanwhile, I’m not so easily misled.

Vote Shadowfacts
Vote Shadowfacts

If we don’t lynch scum today, it won’t be my fault.

1979

I’m on my feet again today, and trying to wrap my head around all the new information. Something I can comment on straight away (having played many hours of DnD) is the colour text of Inner Stickler’s spells.

The distinction between arcane and divine magic is pretty definite, but sometimes clerics that worship gods of magic can cast some arcane spells. In so far as what the spells can do, clerical spells tend to have less raw power. Their damage spells always do less damage than a magic-user of the same level. Magic-user spells are much more versatile. Divine magic is the only kind that can do healing (later editions of the game messed this up with bards). So ‘cleric’ is a natural map to ‘doctor’, but I can’t think of any clerical spells that actually do what a paranoid doctor does in Mafia, though there are spells that can sort of do each part separately. I don’t know how valid it is to expect that Mafia roles and DnD roles will coincide perfectly.

As for the flashiness, this is not to do with the appearance of the spell casting, but the effect of the spell, and it’s a really vague guideline anyway. The way the spell looks when it is being cast is completely up to the player and the DM, and generally has to do with the god the cleric follows. If you worship a sun god, your spells might look like beams of light; if you worshipped a battle god, you might have ghostly warriors appear to act out the effect. Or you could just wave your hands. It is not specified anywhere, and is left to people’s imagination as to how cool or complex or meaningful they want to make it. What the spell looked like doesn’t mean anything.

I still haven’t got a handle on all the role-blocking, and who has claimed to do what to who. FWIW (possibly nothing) I think a DnD cleric would use a ‘hold person’ to role-block, which is a mind-affecting spell. It doesn’t have any protective aspect though, so it isn’t really the equivalent of a paranoid doc.

Until someone counterclaims Inner Stickler, I don’t think I’ll be voting for him. It’s a problem if the doc is pedescribe, I guess. But then scum must have an Investigator, and I have lost track of the number of power roles they need to have to live up to all the theories about them: Janitor, Role-Blocker, Investigator, Power-Stealer, Godfather, Doctor, any more?

Ok, I’m going to go look at these role claims.

1980

Let’s do one of those vote counts you’re always hearing about. I think I’ve finally done one that is absolutely 100% correct.

ShadowFacts (8): Red Skeezix [1719], gnarlycharlie [1729], Normal Phase [1761], Hirka T’Bawa [1840], Weedy [1909], Mental Guy [1913], Inner Stickler [1978], Inner Stickler [1978]

Red Skeezix (7): USCDiver [1698], ShadowFacts [1706], Stanislaus [1763], ShadowFacts [1955], Choie [1976]

Inner Stickler (2): Askthepizzaguy [1939], Askthepizzaguy [1972]

Mental Guy (2): Normal Phase [1947], Hirka T’Bawa [1969]

Weedy (1): Suburban Plankton [1753]

With these votes, ShadowFacts would be lynched. Day ends tomorrow at 5 pm central time.