This is a debate I’ve held with myself for some time now. My mother calls me lazy because I didn’t go on to college. I say I’m depressed because I needed financial aid and didn’t get it because of the false information she gave on my application. My therapist says I’ve Bi-Polar Disorder with depressive qualities. Sometimes I use depression as an excuse to get out of things, which makes me feel lazy and makes me more depressed. Since I can see past what is presented in front of me I know what I’m capable of and what is simply avoided because of fear; fear of disappointment, rejection, failure, expectation of future success. This only leads me to wonder, because I am capable of so much, am I being lazy or am I struggling because my brain is wired wrong? The one fact that makes me lean towards true depression is because doing nothing, for me, is actually more fraught with anxiety than actually doing something.
Can’t it be both? It sounds like you’ve accepted that you have a mental health disorder you need to work on, since you’re seeing a professional.
Would it do any harm to also accept that you’re lazy and need to rectify that personal failing?
I have known people who are (IMHO) truly depressed versus people who are lazy and claim to be depressed. The big differentiator for me is how these people react to a positive event or occurrence. In my experience, the truly depressed person is equally like to avoid a positive event as a negative one because they feel they are undeserving of the positive event, or are embarrassed or even afraid of it.
For example, my wife and I have two friends, Tammie and Evan, who are truly depressed. They are as likely to be down in the dumps and miss a job interview or class as they are to miss a party or Comic-Con, which are things they enjoy. When at the enjoyable event, they have trouble having a good time and will typically come up with excuses why they should leave. They do not post on Facebook or message boards looking for any kind of validation of their illness
Another friend, Cynthia, will miss work, job interviews, and classes because of ‘depression’, but will post non-stop on Facebook about how depression is a real disease and how terrible her life is. But when it comes time for a party, she is often early and will even help set it up, and has never missed a Comic-Con for as long as she’s been going. She stays for the entire event and doesn’t want it to end. The ‘depression’ only returns when she has to go back to the real world.
Both groups are on anti-depressants and see therapists, but only the former group, in my opinion, is truly ‘depressed’. I don’t know you or your behavior and I’m sure like most diseases, depression is on a spectrum with some people worse than others, so I cannot classify what your problem is. I’m sure someone will also pipe up in short order (as is required on message boards) to tell me my heuristic for detecting ‘laziness’ is full of crap based on whatever X,Y, Z reasons they state, but this is my opinion and experience. YMMV.
I don’t have an answer, but I think that figuring out the distinction, if any, between ‘mental illness’ and ‘character flaw’ is one of the most pressing issues in modern society, and certainly in medicine. Until pretty recently, just about every behavioral problem was considered a character flaw. Thankfully, in the modern era we’ve come to realize that there exist diseases that affect behavior just like those that affect cardiac function. This has led to a much more constructive, and merciful, approach to helping people with such diseases. People with mental illness face much less judgment than they used to (though not zero) thanks to the idea that the cause of their problem is “biology”, not “character”. And many are able to pursue treatment that improves their life significantly.
But the idea of mental illness, progressive and constructive as it is, leaves us with a very big problem, namely: there is no meaningful distinction between biology and character. All “character” traits stem from the biology of the brain. Thus, should anyone be held responsible for any of their behavior?
The heuristic that “character is under your control, mental illness is not” isn’t very useful. If mental illness is not under conscious control, how do we explain the fact that mental illness can sometimes be treated with talk therapy? When someone has a character trait (e.g., laziness) that harm his/her life, why would the person continue to choose this behavior?
I think this is going to be one of the big challenges in coming decades. The impulse to judge and reward/punish behavior is very deep-seated in the human mind. As biology encroaches on the behavioral sciences, we’re going to have to re-examine the basis for this.
One feeds on the other and it’s a difficult cycle to break. In the end, the cause doesn’t really matter much, but the results do. Find anything you can do to get out of the inactivity cycle of doom. I’m susceptible to it myself; I’m lucky I married a woman who encourages me to climb out of the cycle and not slip back into it.
In the end, regardless of the cause, you’re the one responsible. That doesn’t mean “it’s your fault” – it means that it’s up to you to handle it, and you’re the one who suffers if you don’t. If sorting out the causes helps you change things for the better, then go for it. But if it doesn’t, then it’s a waste of time.
Easy to say, hard to do, sure. See if you can get counseling. It can help to get an “outside opinion” and advice to help you get on the path you want to be on. If your therapist isn’t helping you this way, find one who will. Don’t make it your goal to “get better”. Make it your goal to get results in your life. For this reason, I recommend a counsellor over a therapist (or maybe both), but of course, they’re all as different as can be so only you can judge.
Lazy because you didn’t go to college one day or lazy as in you didn’t attend college and get a college degree? Because if it’s the second, then my question is, did you want to go to college, or was your going to college her goal and not yours?
I have a little pet theory about lazy and depression. When I was a teenager I noticed I had the capacity to be very lazy. I was always considered a good worker at work but once I left work I didn’t wash my car, clean up the house unless a girl was comming over etc. I simply had to force myself and still do over 40 years later. Now I feed off the reward that I feel with a job well done. If I am not careful I can fall back into being a sloth very easily. Most people think of me as an obsessive work aholic because I never seem to stop. I am a closet lazy person that has been able to manage my defect by relying on the rewards that I get from work to reinforce my will to work. Not sure if this makes sense but just my 2 cents worth.
I think this is an important point. While it may not be anyone’s “fault”, it still becomes a problem and it’s not fair to other people to make them have to deal with it. If a persons laziness, depression, bipolarness or whatever is keeping them from holding down jobs, maintaining healthy relationships, preventing you from moving forward in life or otherwise causing you to be a burden to others, you should seek some sort of help.
Ultimately it doesn’t matter. Regardless of the reason, you have to talk yourself “right”.
Not wanting to do something is a valid explanation. I don’t want to eat lima beans, no matter how “good” they are for me, so I choose to not eat them. You can browbeat me all day about how stupid/lazy/irresponsible this choice is, but it doesn’t change the fact that lima beans disgust me.
However, this doesn’t get me off the hook on eating well. I have the responsibility to find vegetables that I DO like or at least tolerate, so that I can eat “right”. I may not want to eat nasty foods, but I do want to live. So I take the easiest path to this goal, and try not to sweat the fact it’s not “perfect”.
There’s nothing shameful about being depressed. I deal with it too. And it’s alright to give yourself a little leeway because of it. But you still have basic responsibilities to tend to. If you can’t find the will to socialize or fill out that job application or clean the bathroom, you can still at least shower, empty the dishwasher, sweep the front porch, and fill the cat’s food bowl. And if even these things are impossible, then you have the responsibility to seek professional help. These easiest way to have a guilt-free conscious is to always try your absolute hardest.
When you first became aware of your disorder, that’s exactly when you acquired some responsibility for it.
How old are you? How long ago was college? I’m not going to argue with a therapist that says you have depression but…did your mother messing up your financial aid form cause your depression??
Almost all depressed people secretly wonder if they’re actually just lazy. I don’t think all lazy people secretly wonder if they’re actually depressed.
In order to tell the difference, you have to look at what you do instead of what you’re supposed to be doing. Did you party every night or hang out at the beach with your friends instead of going to college? Then you might be lazy. If you stayed at home dully watching whatever wandered by on TV while you wished you were going to college or partying or hanging out at the beach, you’re probably depressed. You also have to consider whether you had the capacity to do whatever it is you didn’t do. Could you have gone into classrooms several times a day, interacted with multitudes of people, completed your homework assignments and passed your tests? If so, you might have avoided college due to laziness. If not, you could have issues with depression.
Serious depression often causes crushing fatigue and hopelessness, both of which make sustained effort at anything difficult or impossible. If you think this is something that can be overcome by sheer force of will, you have not experienced the worst that depression has to offer, so count your blessings.
Aware of what will hurt you
you’re prepared to remain this way.
So sad, yet safe with your affliction,
Afraid to start a brand new day.
–from “Fear,” Siouxie & The Banshees
No one else but you can rise up
You know what to do, got to get up
No more looking down, look up
Come and claim your crown, got to get up
–from “Got to Get Up,” Siouxie & The Banshees
One album, so much sympathy and encouragement. I highly recommend it.
I admit I have a lazy streak, especially for some tasks. But real depression is different.
Before I got treatment, I was rarely truly happy about anything, including the things I did when I was avoiding stuff I had to do. For example, I could look at a happy child, or a beautiful sunset, and think, “Hmmm. I guess I should enjoy that.” And then I’d be sadder, because I remembered being well, and being happy, and I’d miss that. It took getting a day where I came home and couldn’t stop crying, for hours, for absolutely no reason. I finally confided in my doctor and fortunately the treatment she prescribed works.
Amen.
This is the thing. As a chronically depressed person, I have struggled a lot with this notion that I am ‘‘lazy.’’ The fact that my mother reinforced this idea by routinely calling me lazy and irresponsible really did not help. To me the worst thing in the world was to be lazy, and I was that worst thing.
Now, from a more objective perspective, there is evidence that I am lazy and evidence that I am not lazy. Evidence that I am lazy - the last time I was unemployed it took me months to even start seriously looking for work. Evidence that I am not lazy - I worked full time as a high school student to support myself after I legally emancipated. I don’t wash the dishes as often as I should, but I have a Master’s degree. Which is the ‘‘true’’ me? Does the fact that I was severely depressed during that period of unemployment matter? How do I know which part is laziness and which part is real depression?
I would drive myself nuts with this. But then it occurred to me, what if the worst is true? What if I really am lazy? So the fuck what? There are worse things to be. I didn’t rob a liquor store. I’m not homeless - pretty comfortable, actually, without mooching off of anyone. I can hold down a job. If I’m a little lazy, so what? The American obsession with having a good work ethic comes from a time when not working very hard all the time would lead not only to your demise but to the failure of your entire society. That’s no longer an issue. Most people can get away with a little slacking off without harming anyone.
Then there is the fact that depression might be viewed as an exaggerated form of laziness. Depression is by and large a pattern of avoidance behaviors, in which you disengage from life due to your fear of discomfort. Laziness is more or less the same thing.
Stop worrying about whether it’s laziness or depression and start asking yourself, are you happy with your behavior? Because if you’re not, regardless of the cause, you have the power to change it.
I just want to point out that besides depression and bipolar there are perhaps less acute versions called dysthymic and cyclothymic disorders which can be as debilitating as depression.
Much more at link
I can attest to this as well. I was diagnosed with dysthymia and Major Depressive Disorder. It’s where you generally feel like shit, but periodically you really feel like shit. Part of the difficulty of dysthymia is the constancy of it all. Dealing with low mood and low energy ever day. Every day you wake up, there it is. All the time.
However, I have found three really effective tools that have helped to raise my baseline mood. 1) Proper nutrition 2) regular, short periods of vigorous exercise 3) Meditation. So, it’s not hopeless.
As a depressed lazy person, I cast another vote for ‘why can’t it be both?’ That said, I agree with the useful heuristic others have posted. When you should have been mowing the lawn/finishing that sales report/studying nuclear physics, what were you doing instead, and more importantly, how much were you enjoying it? In fact, even if the ‘lazy alternative’ was going to a party, or drinking a bottle of wine, or playing video games for eight hours, it’s probably still depression if you still kinda felt shit while doing it.
But the reason I know there’s a strong ‘lazy’ component to my behaviour too, is that the depression has sometimes lifted for days at a time, and I haven’t been particularly more productive during those times, I’ve just not beat myself up about my nonproductivity.
Of course, another way of looking at this is to re-examine the concept of ‘productive tasks’. Take mowing the lawn. It’s… a fucking lawn, for chrissakes! You’ll only be returning it to the state it was in a couple of weeks ago. And your work won’t even last that long. Honestly, go eat a tub of ice cream instead. Fucking grass.
One thing I’ve learned from my depression is that clinical depression is a delusion. You know how everyone you know tells you to “trust your gut”? Well, this is not good advice when you’re sick. Every message your mind and body sends you must be questioned and then questioned again, because there is a lot of background irrational stuff the two throw at you. When you know you are depressed, you just need to give up on the idea of trusting yourself completely. (Which is why having someone, whether it be a trusted family member/friend or professional, is so important when you are depressed).
Anhedonia is an awful thing. I dealt with it for years before even knowing it was a thing. I’ve done a lot of reading about it, and one idea I’ve come across is that anhedonia in some people is more about how an activity is perceived in the abstract rather than experienced in actuality. Ask these people if they’d like to go to a concert, and they will express utter displeasure at the idea. It will seem like the worst chore for them. But force them to go anyway and surprisingly they will report having a good time. Interestingly, they will forget all about this positive experience when the next invitation comes. It’s like their anhedonia impacts the affective dimension of their imaginations and memories. I think of it as a “delusion of the emotions”.
When I’m depressed, I always have to remind myself that I’m one of these type of anhedonics. I always dread going down to visit family at Christmastime and always swear to myself that I will just stay home in my quiet cocoon, and yet I always go and somehow manage to enjoy myself. Whenever I lose my appetite and swear up and down that food makes me sick, I force myself to eat anyway…because 7 times out of 10, I’ll find that my body is actually quite hungry and quite able to experience the pleasures of grease, sugar, and salt, not matter what my crazy brain says.
It is difficult to always be in an argument with yourself, but it is a good way to combat the idea that you’re lazy. Lazy people don’t have it in them to challenge their impulses and reactions.
Monstro, good post and very true about a lot of things. We can’t always trust our own judgement, kind of like driving on ice with no experience. What seems to be intuitive is often all wrong.
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion, but clinical depression is very real. Left untreated it can destroy the sufferer and, when it ends in suicide, it can be hell on earth for everyone around him too. I’ve known two people who were clinically depressed. One tried to tough it out without medication, and ended up shooting himself in his beloved mother’s driveway. The other came to terms with the fact that she couldn’t lead a normal life without medication, when she found herself about to drive off a bridge for no plausible reason. Fortunately, she is still alive and doing well, much to the relief of her family.
Self-diagnosis and amateur diagnosis of others are both dangerous businesses. Sharing one’s own experience or proffering advice from same or lending a sympathetic ear can be enormously helpful, but debilitating mental health issues need to be assessed and, if needed, addressed by professionals. A lot of people end up self-medicating in destructive ways, because they didn’t seek help. For those who don’t understand why they feel the way they do, or why mundane tasks seem so hard to accomplish, it’s far better to be safe than sorry. Although there’s a lot of cross-over, a psychiatrist’s job is to determine whether and/or what chemical intervention might be appropriate, while therapists provide various kinds of targeted, long or short term, counseling. When it comes to the latter, if you don’t feel like you’re on the same wavelength, look for someone else, because that fit is important.