Despicable: McCain & child sexual predators

[Bricker]

One of the criticisms often leveled against the left is that they are elitists and are contemptuous of Middle America.

Assuming, as has been true in years past, that a fair chunk of Middle America votes Republican, is that a charge that has some weight? There seems to be some support here for the basic proposition that a vote for the GOP is contemptible in and of itself, no further evidence needed.

To me, the disconnect between these positions is interesting.

Do Democrats who feel this way think their contempt is not noticed? Do they feel they can win the election without need for these Middle America voters? Do they feel this contempt but conceal it?

My own theory is that the per se contempt rule discussed here is not shared by many Democrats, certainly not many in elected office.

But I could be wrong.

[MrDibble]

@Bricker

I wonder how many people support the position that a vote for the Republican presidential candidate in this election is enough, alone, to make such a voter a contemptible person.

I do. But I thought the same in 2004, too.

[DanBlather]

@Bricker

One of the criticisms often leveled against the left is that they are elitists and are contemptuous of Middle America.

Assuming, as has been true in years past, that a fair chunk of Middle America votes Republican, is that a charge that has some weight? There seems to be some support here for the basic proposition that a vote for the GOP is contemptible in and of itself, no further evidence needed.

To me, the disconnect between these positions is interesting.

Do Democrats who feel this way think their contempt is not noticed? Do they feel they can win the election without need for these Middle America voters? Do they feel this contempt but conceal it?

My own theory is that the per se contempt rule discussed here is not shared by many Democrats, certainly not many in elected office.

But I could be wrong.

The irony is that the right shows total contempt of the middle of the country by pandering to their fears and prejudices. The Democrats have tried to make elections about policies; think Kerry, Gore, and Dukakis. The right makes it about guns, gays, and god and who is an “elitist”.

[wring]

@Bricker

One of the criticisms often leveled against the left is that they are elitists and are contemptuous of Middle America.

Assuming, as has been true in years past, that a fair chunk of Middle America votes Republican, is that a charge that has some weight? There seems to be some support here for the basic proposition that a vote for the GOP is contemptible in and of itself, no further evidence needed.

To me, the disconnect between these positions is interesting.

Do Democrats who feel this way think their contempt is not noticed? Do they feel they can win the election without need for these Middle America voters? Do they feel this contempt but conceal it?

My own theory is that the per se contempt rule discussed here is not shared by many Democrats, certainly not many in elected office.

But I could be wrong.

And Republicans seem to believe that their smugness is not noticed, too.

Listen - politics is about “who we think is more correct about the way things aughta be”. It’s not like a preference for Mexican food, or did you really think Starship Troopers sucked donkey ass.

People seem to be able to have (somewhat) civil discussions and disagreements about whole hosts of things. But politics (and religion) aren’t about preferences, it’s about what we hard core believe should happen.

So, I may still believe that some of my conservative pals are great folks, but I disagree whole heartedly w/their assesment of what is wrong w/our country and what is right about our country and where it augta go from here, and who’s best to lead it that way. It’s difficult to believe all of that w/o thinking “um, they’re wrong”, isn’t it??

[Kalhoun]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

I don’t know. How many times can you let a guy slime you and still keep giving him the POW Honor Pass? McCain damn near called Obama a child molester in that ad. For a guy who promised he wouldn’t go negative, that seems kind of negative.

Good…I’m glad he finally showed his true dishonorable colors. He approved the message, the prick. He cut his own dishonorable throat.

[Shayna]

@Bricker

One of the criticisms often leveled against the left is that they are elitists and are contemptuous of Middle America.

Assuming, as has been true in years past, that a fair chunk of Middle America votes Republican, is that a charge that has some weight? There seems to be some support here for the basic proposition that a vote for the GOP is contemptible in and of itself, no further evidence needed.

To me, the disconnect between these positions is interesting.

Do Democrats who feel this way think their contempt is not noticed? Do they feel they can win the election without need for these Middle America voters? Do they feel this contempt but conceal it?

My own theory is that the per se contempt rule discussed here is not shared by many Democrats, certainly not many in elected office.

But I could be wrong.

You left out the relevant portion of your original question. . . in this election.

@Gangster Octopus

President Bush is responsible for a general decline in the values and principles this country stands for, IMO. Torture, politicization of the justice department, fighting habeus corpus, manufacturing a war and then conducting it disgracefully. These are the sins of possibly thhe worst President ever? And he has done it with full complicity of his party. How can we combat this abuse of power, this wanton destruction of America, if we hand the reins of power back to the party that is responsible? How can we allow that?

And this is why.

You need to watch this video carefully. Not that I think you’ll take it to heart, but it needs to be seen far and wide.

If your guns and your personal pocketbook and your disappointment in message board discourse is more important than the serious issues that are facing this nation, while we’re engaged in two wars and bailing out banks and lending companies left and right, then yes, you, sir, are contemptible.

[Discordia]

@MrDibble

I do. But I thought the same in 2004, too.

This.

American’s just re-elected one of the worst presidents ever, with the lowest approval ratings ever. Following this, the member of the same party runs one of the most despicable campaigns in decades at least, a campaign based on absolutely nothing but lies, zero policy. And you’d even CONSIDER voting for him?

Stupid beyond words and contemptible.

Kind of sad that you’re happy to fuck over your country for a tax break :rolleyes:

Or guns oooooh, while your country faces crisis after crisis and your economy tanks but you’re worried that they’ll take away your guns. Despite it being political suicide.

Gah, so idiotic. Hope you guys pull it out the fire somehow.

[Mr.Moto]

@Bricker

One of the criticisms often leveled against the left is that they are elitists and are contemptuous of Middle America.

Assuming, as has been true in years past, that a fair chunk of Middle America votes Republican, is that a charge that has some weight? There seems to be some support here for the basic proposition that a vote for the GOP is contemptible in and of itself, no further evidence needed.

To me, the disconnect between these positions is interesting.

Do Democrats who feel this way think their contempt is not noticed? Do they feel they can win the election without need for these Middle America voters? Do they feel this contempt but conceal it?

My own theory is that the per se contempt rule discussed here is not shared by many Democrats, certainly not many in elected office.

But I could be wrong.

It is an interesting question. I subscribe to the Atlantic news feed, and this article came through today - I’m relaying the original column published in FT:

Clive Crook - Democrats must learn some respect.

This article is not the first to note the cultural contradiction in American liberalism, but just now the point bears restating. The election may turn on it.

Democrats speak up for the less prosperous; they have well-intentioned policies to help them; they are disturbed by inequality, and want to do something about it. Their concern is real and admirable. The trouble is, they lack respect for the objects of their solicitude. Their sympathy comes mixed with disdain, and even contempt.

Democrats regard their policies as self-evidently in the interests of the US working and middle classes. Yet those wide segments of US society keep helping to elect Republican presidents. How is one to account for this? Are those people idiots? Frankly, yes – or so many liberals are driven to conclude. Either that or bigots, clinging to guns, God and white supremacy; or else pathetic dupes, ever at the disposal of Republican strategists. If they only had the brains to vote in their interests, Democrats think, the party would never be out of power. But again and again, the Republicans tell their lies, and those stupid damned voters buy it.

…Because it was so unexpected, Sarah Palin’s nomination for the vice-presidency jolted these attitudes to the surface. Ms Palin is a small-town American. It is said that she has only recently acquired a passport. Her husband is a fisherman and production worker. She represents a great slice of the country that the Democrats say they care about – yet her selection induced an apoplectic fit.

For days, the derision poured down from Democratic party talking heads and much of the media too. The idea that “this woman” might be vice-president or even president was literally incomprehensible. The popular liberal comedian Bill Maher, whose act is an endless sneer at the Republican party, noted that John McCain’s case for the presidency was that only he was capable of standing between the US and its enemies, but that should he die he had chosen “this stewardess” to take over. This joke was not – or not only – a complaint about lack of experience. It was also an expression of class disgust. I give Mr Maher credit for daring to say what many Democrats would only insinuate.

Little was known about Ms Palin, but it sufficed for her nomination to be regarded as a kind of insult. Even after her triumph at the Republican convention in St Paul last week, the put-downs continued. Yes, the delivery was all right, but the speech was written by somebody else – as though that is unusual, as though the speechwriter is not the junior partner in the preparation of a speech, and as though just anybody could have raised the roof with that text. Voters in small towns and suburbs, forever mocked and condescended to by metropolitan liberals, are attuned to this disdain. Every four years, many take their revenge.

…The problem in my view is less Mr Obama and more the attitudes of the claque of official and unofficial supporters that surrounds him. The prevailing liberal mindset is what makes the criticisms of Mr Obama’s distance from working Americans stick.

…The Palin nomination could still misfire for Mr McCain, but the liberal reaction has made it a huge success so far. To avoid endlessly repeating this mistake, Democrats need to learn some respect.

It will be hard. They will have to develop some regard for the values that the middle of the country expresses when it votes Republican.

[Bosstone]

Buh-buh-but McCain isn’t Bush!

If McCain hadn’t sold out his supposed principles and fallen in lockstep with Bush, if he’d actually made an effort to break away from the failed policies of the last 8 years instead of just co-opting the word “change,” and if Obama weren’t running, I may well have voted for him. And yes, I firmly believe you can be a staunch conservative/Republican and still not follow Bush’s game plan.

McCain could have destroyed this election by being the Republican candidate who denounced Bush and wanted to reclaim the party for true conservatives.

[Bricker]

@DanBlather

The irony is that the right shows total contempt of the middle of the country by pandering to their fears and prejudices. The Democrats have tried to make elections about policies; think Kerry, Gore, and Dukakis. The right makes it about guns, gays, and god and who is an “elitist”.

I don’t understand the accusation of “pandering.”

The word refers to someone who caters to or exploits the weaknesses of others.

To accept that, it seems to me we must first conclude that the Democrats’ policies are wise issues, while guns, gays, god, and who is an elitist are not valid issues.

My own opinion is:

[ul]
[li]Guns – absolutely a valid issue[/li][li]Gays – a wide range of issues, mostly not valid, but some with tangential validity[/li][li]God – a wide range of issues, some with validity, some not[/li][li]Who is an elitist – a valid issue, to the extent it suggests contempt of the voter[/li][/ul]

But my own opinion is tempered by this: everyone has a vote. I can certainly tell another voter he’s an idiot for caring about his issues, but it doesn’t seem the best path to getting his vote.

And you don’t mention things like abortion, unless you include that in “God.” You, like others who have shared their opinions recently, may be convinced you’re absolutely correct on the issue of abortion, but much of the country doesn’t agree with you. Is it really wise, or useful, to simply dismiss them as contemptible, or as idiots?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Bricker

One of the criticisms often leveled against the left is that they are elitists and are contemptuous of Middle America.

Assuming, as has been true in years past, that a fair chunk of Middle America votes Republican, is that a charge that has some weight? There seems to be some support here for the basic proposition that a vote for the GOP is contemptible in and of itself, no further evidence needed.

To me, the disconnect between these positions is interesting.

Do Democrats who feel this way think their contempt is not noticed? Do they feel they can win the election without need for these Middle America voters? Do they feel this contempt but conceal it?

My own theory is that the per se contempt rule discussed here is not shared by many Democrats, certainly not many in elected office.

But I could be wrong.

A lot of conservatives literally turn it into a cosmic religious battle of God Vs. Satan. Sarah Palin’s pastor said that people who criticize Bush or vote for Democtars go to Hell. The Obama “Antichrist” crap is ubiquitous on the internet and on right wing radio. Overtly racist anti-Obama stuff is ubiquitous as well. There is no equivalent to that kind of thing on the left. I don’t even buy the “contempt for middle America” meme, given that most Democrats are working class.

[Bricker]

@Shayna

You left out the relevant portion of your original question. . . in this election. And this is why.

You need to watch this video carefully. Not that I think you’ll take it to heart, but it needs to be seen far and wide.

If your guns and your personal pocketbook and your disappointment in message board discourse is more important than the serious issues that are facing this nation, while we’re engaged in two wars and bailing out banks and lending companies left and right, then yes, you, sir, are contemptible.

OK, forget me. I’m only one vote.

But the fact of the matter is that polls and history show it’s not going to be a landslide for Obama, even if he wins. Kerry lost outright. What about all those votes? They’re all contempible too, you say. So a majority of voters in this country in 2004 are worthy of contempt; a near-majority of current prospective voters are worthy of your contempt.

Does this seem like a winning approach?

[Bricker]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

A lot of conservatives literally turn it into a cosmic religious battle of God Vs. Satan. Sarah Palin’s pastor said that people who criticize Bush or vote for Democtars go to Hell.

I missed that. You have a link? (Not that my blood pressure needs it, but…)

The Obama “Antichrist” crap is ubiquitous on the internet and on right wing radio. Overtly racist anti-Obama stuff is ubiquitous as well. There is no equivalent to that kind of thing on the left. I don’t even buy the “contempt for middle America” meme, given that most Democrats are working class.

Well, that’s why I asked the contempt question here. And got affirmative responses.

[hansel]

@elucidator

Depends. If I can say “Bless his heart, he don’t know any better”, that’s one thing. But you do. And that’s another thing altogether.

This.

As long as you vote for McCain, your disapproval of his tactics are just convenient moral posturing.

[TVeblen]

@Bricker

One of the criticisms often leveled against the left is that they are elitists and are contemptuous of Middle America.

Assuming, as has been true in years past, that a fair chunk of Middle America votes Republican, is that a charge that has some weight? There seems to be some support here for the basic proposition that a vote for the GOP is contemptible in and of itself, no further evidence needed.

And…the inevitable Brickerian retreat to the passive voice and a comfortable, cross-examining distance.

Here are a few facts, you disgusting little maggot:

• You bemoan that filthy attacks and assassination tactics are now page 1 in the GOP playbook. So damaging to civil discourse, mutual respect!

• Yet you actively and ardently supported the administration that refined and codified those very same filthy tactics into the standard GOP ‘playbook’, in quite clear fact tacitly condoning their usefulness. Before you waffle, they don’t hand out White House party passes to casual bystanders who, say, write really flattering letters to the editor. You shilled hard to elect Rove/Shrub for a second term.

• During that same second campaign, Rove/Shrub swiftboated fellow Republican and candidate, maverick Johnny McCain. He was so outraged he told Bush to ‘get your hand off me’ when Shrub tried for a camera-op handshake. You somehow still failed to express outrage over nasty campaign tactics. In fact, you celebrated a fine ‘victory’.

• Now that Rove/Shrub thoroughly disgraced themselves (not to mention the country), your new boy, maverick Johnny McCain, snagged the nomination–and what did this man of iron will and morals do? What new, better direction did he set for the GOP? Dove right into the pig shit, baby, slandering opponents like a motherfuck. Hypocrisy, really scuzzy behavior–really disappointing from a former target of neocon assassination politics but hey. It’s now just page 1 in the GOP playbook, right? Nothing you could do.

• McSame then chooses a ludicrously unqualified idiot whose only–only–benefit is appeal to lunatic fringe religious fundamentalists and ‘gummint black helicopters are comin’ for my guns’ wingnuts. So many qualified Republicans were passed up, many of them women, that McSame’s ludicrous Palin gambit is embarrassing. Well, to anyone still capable of honest shame.

• You express admiration for a Democratic candidate who runs a genuinely clean campaign. But your enthusiasm is ruined, your idealism crushed– by internet posters who just won’t shut up about, well, how fucking lame McSame and Creationist Barbie really are. Maybe a tactful nationwide silence…? Nah. You must Hold Your Highest Ideals. All the negativity, the blatantly critical attacks… you are utterly repulsed. Well, now. Before, that was completely different.

• You, demonstrably, don’t give a steaming shit about clean politics. You, demonstrably, gleefully whore yourself right out if ‘your guys’ win. Genuinely despicable means certainly justified the ends for you in two previous elections. But now you want respect for your deep, abiding concern for…ethics.

Just fucking vote Republican already. Shut the fuck up with all your angsty moaning about ethics and morals and all that stuff you quite publicly crapped on for 8 years. Why the hell care NOW, at this late date, about what other people think of your politics?

I don’t remember the grand old attention whores of yore being this fucking whiny.

[Bricker]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

A lot of conservatives literally turn it into a cosmic religious battle of God Vs. Satan. Sarah Palin’s pastor said that people who criticize Bush or vote for Democtars go to Hell. The Obama “Antichrist” crap is ubiquitous on the internet and on right wing radio. Overtly racist anti-Obama stuff is ubiquitous as well. There is no equivalent to that kind of thing on the left. I don’t even buy the “contempt for middle America” meme, given that most Democrats are working class.

On further reflection:

I don’t agree that stuff has no equivalent on the left. It does, and it was in full swing here. “Sarah Palin Faked Her Pregnancy?” Come on. Are you really going to defend that outpouring of unsourced attacks as legitimate commentary? Really?

I know you’re a partisan, and a hard-headed one to boot, but you also have a streak of contrariness that’s shown in your willingness to call bullshit on your side every now and again.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Bricker

I missed that. You have a link? (Not that my blood pressure needs it, but…)

[HuffPo, but with links to recorded sermons:

During the 2004 election season, he praised President Bush’s performance during a debate with Sen. John Kerry, then offered a not-so-subtle message about his personal candidate preferences. “I’m not going tell you who to vote for, but if you vote for this particular person, I question your salvation. I’m sorry.” Kalnins added: “If every Christian will vote righteously, it would be a landslide every time.”

Months after hinting at possible damnation for Kerry supporters, Kalnins bristled at the treatment President Bush was receiving over the federal government’s handling of Hurricane Katrina. “I hate criticisms towards the President,” he said, “because it’s like criticisms towards the pastor – it’s almost like, it’s not going to get you anywhere, you know, except for hell. That’s what it’ll get you.”

[Discordia]

@Bricker

I missed that. You have a link? (Not that my blood pressure needs it, but…)

Well, that’s why I asked the contempt question here. And got affirmative responses.

2 of them weren’t even from Americans, just so ya know.

Personally I don’t much care for stupid people, and most people who vote Republican are just being used. Abortion? It’s never, ever going to get banned. Republicans would never a national election again, and they know it. They’d be a permanent minority party.

I suppose I should just feel sorry for them instead, not their fault they’re dumb I guess.

I certainly have contempt for idiot hawks and greedy little shits who will destroy their country to make a buck though.

You need a competent President, regardless of his ideology. McCain is a fucking lunatic who will do anything to win, and doesn’t give a shit about his country, despite his propaganda to the contrary.

[Bricker]

@TVeblen

Just fucking vote Republican already. Shut the fuck up with all your angsty moaning about ethics and morals and all that stuff you quite publicly crapped on for 8 years. Why the hell care NOW, at this late date, about what other people think of your politics?

Well, there are others besides you in the thread, and perhaps I can have discussions with them that are of interest to them, and to me.

And the point I’m making goes beyond me: I’m one vote. Even in Florida, I wouldn’t tip the election. I’m asking about the idea that there are simply no defnesible reasons for voting Republican in this election; that everyone who does so is not simply a person with whom you disagree, but a contemptible scumbag. Or an addled dupe.

Taking my vote out of the equation – I believe you’ve made your feelings clear on it – what about the millions of other voters who are also poised to support McCain, and the majority of voters who did support Bush in 2004? All contemptible cunts as well?

[Bricker]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

[HuffPo, but with links to recorded sermons:

Well, your larger comment stands. Thanks.

I would note that he wasn’t Palin’s pastor, since she left that church at least two years before he gave the remarks in question. But your overall point – that some conservatives dress up the issue as immortal soul in peril of hell for supporting the “wrong” person – you’re right.