Detroit, the worst crime laden city?

On Fox New’s web page they posted the following headline.

Researchers: Detroit Nation’s Most Dangerous City

Now I’m originally from Detroit and the rest of my family still lives there, so this doesn’t especially make me happy. But since I visit at least once a year it also really doesn’t completely surprise me. On the other hand, when I think of all the development in the downtown area, it does evoke somewhat of a; “what?”

In any case the FBI says the following about the analysis:

What are they saying here? That the data are correct but we should take other things into consideration? Or are they saying the data analysis was done incorrectly? Or this shouldn’t have been published because it causes harm? Or what?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,312106,00.html

Bolding mine. As the great Mark Twain once said, “There three types of un-truths: lies, damned lies, and statistics.” Secret formulas are not an earmark of fair, unbiased studies.

I lived in New Orleans when it was the top murder city and one of the violent crime hot-spots (the mid nineties). It was something to keep in mind but most crime wasn’t targeted against innocents in regular neighborhoods. It was mainly minority on minority crime just like everywhere else in the U.S. There was a lot of mugging however. That pattern typically holds true for perennial crime favorites like Miami, Washington D.C. and Detroit.

Crime follows its own pattern in different areas. In the U.S., violent crime is often prominent but is still relatively rare and targeted against certain groups towards certain groups. In Europe, crime tend to be not quite as violent but it is everywhere and is a constant threat to everyone. I love Europe, but whenever I go there, I get really uncomfortable with the gypsies and thieves in evidence all around. I think a kick in the teeth would ruin my vacation much less than having my wallet stolen.

In any case, Detroit probably is #1 for what they want to measure. Why wouldn’t it be? It has a struggling economy and a crime-ridden demographic. There is no city that comes to mind that has the same problems and reputation. That doesn’t mean the whole place is a post-apopolyptic shit hole.

Here is something that I posted about my perception of Detroit in a earlier thread.

A lot of Detroit’s rep is a bit overblown by the statistics. And the artifacts of where city boundries happened to be drawn. With the whole suburbanization(white flight) whatever you want to call it, most large American cities had area that became depressed and blighted. And most of the middle class moved 8-25 miles from city center to suburbs. What happened with Detroit, is that the abandoned areas happened to cover virtually all of everything within the city limits. Now there are very bad areas. But any large City say Houston, L.A. Chicago have areas as bad as the bad areas of Detroit. But they also have decent sections of good areas within the city limits, to bring the averages up. Detroit was only left with bad areas, and very very small good areas to effect the crime and property stats and so on.

I personally don’t think People made a conscious decision to “move out side the City limits” just to move to an area percieved safer. Detroit’s fairly small city limit size just happened to havbe them all end up on the outside. L:et me see if I can explain;
If you took Detroit City center, and made a circle(well semi-circle cause of the lake) that contained as much area as the city limits of Chicago. You would probably catch more of the Gross pointe areas, Ferndale, parts of Dearborn that arn’t that bad etc. And if you went to the area size of Houston or L.A. you would have Probably Royal Oak, Troy, Farmington, Farminton Hills, and maybe Auburn Hills and Novi type places. The Stats would greatly improve on Average, and it wouldn’t stand out as bad in lists. Those are perfectly nice cities and towns, and no-one would really feel danger much more than any American city. Yeah if you go 7 miles in the Wrong direction you are gonna be scared and in some danger, but that is true in any major Metro area.

Not being an expert on L.A. or Houston, but I’d Imagine you could take a Detroit Sized hunk out of them that would have a pretty dismal performance on the stats. Detroit did get hit extra hard with the Auto Industries hard times, And I’m not gonna defend it too hard, But there really is a bit of random happenstance as too where the city border was made, and the stats that follow, that makes it seem worse that

And just for some numbers

Ferndale, right on the edge of Detroit, and one of those urban-suburban transition areas, has a 4.6 murder per 100,000 rate, much more in line with the other numbers. I doubt much any anyone would feel to threatened there.

I take your point about the somewhat arbitrary nature of city boundaries, but the fact is that those boundaries do have an impact on the way that people move.

For example, suburbs outside city boundaries often have lower tax rates than the cities, or have different public school systems. While people might not specifically choose to cross the city line just to feel safer, someone who wants to move in order to feel safer is likely to also take into account things like tax rates and school districts. And, to tell you the truth, the evidence does indicate that, particularly during the height of white flight, a lot of people did feel that moving across the city boundary made a big difference to their quality of life. Plenty of good recent works of urban history demonstrate this.

Not only that, but as more people move, the disparities increase. The decline in city population reduces the tax base, leading city officials to raise taxes and cut services in order to offset the decline in tax revenue resulting from flight to the suburbs. The ongoing rise in taxes pushes more people to move, and those who can afford to move to the suburbs tend to be wealthier.

Also, while your point about the distance of the city boundary might be true, i’d be interested to know how many other cities have suffered comparable population decline in the areas around the downtown core of the city. According to the US census, the population of Detroit peaked in the 1950s at around 2 million, and there are now fewer than 900,000 people in the city. Draw the city boundaries wherever you like, but a population decline like that leads to large areas of urban blight, no-go areas, and vacant buildings in which drug dealers and other criminals can carry on their activities. I don’t think it’s any coincidence that another city with big drug and violence problems—Baltimore—has also suffered a large decline in city population since the 1950s, dropping from 950,000 to about 670,000.

Like Shagnasty said, though, the extent to which the really bad violence (homicides, etc.) affects random people is often not as great as the statistics suggests. Every week, the free weekly paper here in Baltimore has a run-down of the previous week’s homicides, and they most frequently occur in particular neighborhoods, and often reflect turf war among drug dealers or pre-existing disputes. That’s not to say that innocent people don’t get caught up in the violence, but it’s extremely unlikely that you’ll be the victim of a random murder just walking down the street.

That said, the lower-level violence like street muggings can really affect how secure and how content people are with their lives in the city. While having someone stick a gun in your face and take your purse or wallet might not leave you with any physical scars, it can leave emotional ones, and can change the way you, and the other people in the city, live from day to day.

In the last three months, there have been three armed muggings within 100 yards of our front door. In each case, the victim was a woman, and was unharmed after she gave up her purse. But the woman involved were pretty badly traumatized by having a gun stuck in their face, and this spate of muggings has made me much more cautious when i walk outside, especially after dark, and much more concerned about my wife’s safety if she’s coming home alone.

They’re saying that the data can be misleading if interpreted too generally without taking into consideration circumstances and things like divergence and convergence. This group puts out this “study” every year using the FBI statistics, and the FBI is annoyed by it.

The studies involve data by whole cities, not by communities. It’s misleading to say a whole city is more dangerous than all others.

See:
Rosenfeld, Richard. 2007. “Transfer the Uniform Crime Reporting Program from the FBI to the Bureau of Justice Statistics.” Criminology and Public Policy.

Or Lynch, James P. and Addington, Lynn A., eds. 2006. Understanding Crime Statistics. Cambridge U. Press.

I just stopped in to say that with a just little more effort & some targeted public relations, my home town of Flint can take the title next year.

I live in the Detroit area. That’s how we say it when we talk to people from other places: “the Detroit area.” If we talk amongst ourselves, then, “I’m from Troy;” “I’m from Mt. Clemens;” “I’m from Plymouth.” It’s fairly accurate to say that wolfman nailed it on the head with his analysis.

I will note an exception to the idea that the borders are arbitrary, though. It appears the borders used were the proper city borders, and those didn’t develop in an arbitrary manner. This region had always been a bustling manufacturing region, even before the mass use of the automobile. Hence there were already a fair number of towns growing in the many townships. In other states it may simply be very easy to annex non-incorporated areas, or to decree that such township areas are now part of x city. This couldn’t happen to the city of Detroit because of the pre-existence of so many other already-incorporated towns already taking up (and annexing) unincorporated township land. That’s actually an entirely different (and interesting) story; I just mean to point out that the borders certainly aren’t arbitrary.

In many respects, depressed cities in the area such as Detroit, Mt. Clemens, and Pontiac shoot themselves in the foot. Each of these cities do have desireable areas to live in, but the tax situations make it such that only the unaware (or the truly dedicated) ever consider relocating to these areas. When we decided to change houses a few years ago, the entire metro region was under consideration, until I started looking at millage rates and other taxes. The cities of Detroit and Pontiac have income taxes. Do I really want to pay 1.5% of my income in addition to property taxes for mediocre city services? All three of the cities I mentioned have unreasonable millage rates as well, easily 50% above most other, perfectly good places to live in the region. Why do they need these rates? Well, they’re all economically depressed cities with below average incomes, so they raise rates to meet their bottom line, but serves as a catch-22 when people that have decent money refuse to live there. When a township has all of the city services and all of your neighbors have above-median income (for the region), tax rates stay low and the schools get good funding. Police millage? Sure, why not, let’s approve it – our taxes are cheap.

Is this new? I spent a summer in Farmington in the mid - '70s. Even then, Detroit had a horrible reputation. Nobody in the crowd I was with went downtown unless they were armed and mostly just didn’t go downtown at all.
Did Detroit improve and then go down the tubes again or has it been like this all along?

Regards

Testy

I don’t really have much of an answer to this. But sometime in the early nineties my brother took me downtown, (when he told me where we were going I figured I was a dead man), and I was amazed.

There were many completely rejuvenated buildings with tons of upscale eating establishments filled with what looked like yuppie businessmen. He told me this was going on all over the downtown area and I believed him. I guess there’s been some regression since then.

“Downtown” is fine, and you’re pretty safe if you go there. The problem with Detroit isn’t the downtown, it’s the people that live there doing nasty things to themselves. If there were a “tourist death” there, it’d be all over national news (“see what we’ve been saying about Detroit, news at 11!”). Even the higher profile acts are results of people be accosted by people they know.

Ring
I’m glad to hear they’re rejuvenating or have done so. When I was there, the space around the Renaissance center was OK and that was about it. The police were all over that area and not much happened. I hope they succeed in cleaning the place up.

Regards

Testy

Yeah, people are starting to refer to downtown as “the Green-zone”. Well patrolled and fairly safe, just like that neighborhood in Baghdad. Even then, it’s safer to watch the Fourth of July fireworks on the Canadian side, least you get shot like those people a couple of years ago. Myself, I stay North of 8 Mile unless I’m going to a game or the Mexicantown neighborhood in Detroit. :smiley:

Completely off-topic but I’m going to take issue with these statements. Making a general statement about “Europe” and the 30-odd countries in it is somewhat meaningless and woefully inaccurate. I don’t know how much you’ve visited Europe but you’ll find the crime rates vary hugely from one country to another and from one area of a country to another. Granted there are areas of Europe wherein you have to be alert and the threat of someone mugging you seems omnipresent but many places I have visited have been far safer than where I live and have felt safer than places I have visited in the US.

Plus, that gypsies comment is scarcely less offensive than if I said “I like America, apart from the blacks”. Apologies to mods and other thread posters if this is the wrong place to take issue with these statements.

Where’s Mexicantown? When I was 20ish we used to go to a lot of run down but really good Mexican restaurants in downtown Deetroit, but I don’t remember any specific place that was called that. (Mexicantown that is).

ETA 8 mile and Gratiot–mmmmmm the ambrosia of White Castle.

I know western Europe is big. It is almost half the size of the continental U.S. It is hard to talk about either without generalizing. I have been to Europe 6 times mainly centered around France in Italy. My in-laws own a factory in Italy. My mother-in-law is from England. My wife’s business is European centered and she has been to Europe 50+ times in her 34 years.

My main observation is that petty felonies are much more tolerated in France, Italy, and England than they are in the U.S. You are statistically less likely to get killed but you are much more likely to be a victim of a felony and much of it is out in the open. How often do you hear about concentrated bands of pickpockets in the U.S.? The first time I arrived in Venice, I was sitting near the entry point with luggage in hand and there was this gypsy (no really, he was what any good gypsy should be) “selling” stuff from a blanket in a very busy area. I didn’t have anything else to do so I started watching him. It immediately became apparent that he was scanning for unwatched bags. I waited and it didn’t take long. He spotted a bag someone had walked away from and made a dash for it. I was already pissed off from my trip and was in the best shape of my life so I charged him straight ahead. He was about 5’7" and 120 soaking wet and I was 6’1" 205. You can do the math. I didn’t hit him but I did thwart the heist and the Venice police arrives soon after to waive him away (which seemed woefully inadequate to me).

Gypsies are also allowed to roam free even wandering into fancy restaurants to sell things to the patrons and maybe even score an extra wallet or two. That type of thing is unthinkable in the U.S. Granted, I know next to nothing about say Norway or Sweden but rural Maine is pretty safe compared to Detroit as well. I have never understood why crime is so openly allowed in parts of Western Europe as opposed to the U.S.

P.S. I have read a lot about the Romani people and they are a well developed group. That doesn’t mean that certain members aren’t real gypsies straight out of bad novel.

Well conditions vary immensely across Europe as I said but I would guess that part of the reason you’ve experienced this difference is the size and density of European cities compared to American ones. For example, the town I live in has people from most conceivable ethnic and socioeconomic groups and they pretty much all live within walking distance of my house. In most American cities I’ve visited if you cannot afford a car you’re up the creek sans paddle. This is not true of many European cities. By the way, in Cleveland, Chicago, and New York I’ve encountered beggars/thieves/pickpockets and the like just as in Europe. The main difference I can see is that American beggars often seem to have a spiel, a sales pitch before asking for money.

Edit: Just an aside, what does “Gypsies are also allowed to roam free” mean? Are they kept in cages in the USA?

No, there aren’t a lot of true gypsies in the U.S. although they do exist in a few places. The main difference I have noted is that “gypsie types” (to be less offensive) would never be allowed to wander in and out of restaurants and other places people with money pay to be. Americans are much less tolerant of that type of overt behavior than Europeans seem to be. Americans tend to dislike certain types of public criminality (those that target innocent individuals like theft) more than Europeans do and there is always the real risk that a cowboy type with a concealed weapons permit will be among those targeted if it does happen.

To be fair, when I lived in New Orleans in the mid-1990’s, it was a violent but very touristy place. There was open criminality there at least off the beaten path and they targeted tourists just like they do in Europe. I haven’t seen the same in other U.S. cities however. Americans tend to have universal outrage if criminals are targeting regular people as opposed to other criminals. We have the biggest prison system in the world just for that purpose.

The last time we debated gun control, I looked up some statistics, and as I recall they tend to back up Shagnasty’s conclusions. America has more murders, but thievery of all sorts is much more common in Europe than it is in the US.

As for the OP, Detroit has been working hard on its downtown area, and it looks pretty nice these days. They’ve gotten a couple big companies to come back. Compuware is now located downtown on Campus Martius (they used to be, IIRC, in Southfield), and Quicken Loans has just agreed to move downtown. (They’re currently out in Livonia.) The Tigers and the Lions have nice new stadiums, and there are rumors that Mike Illitch wants to build a new stadium for the Red Wings. The Book Cadillac, an old hotel, is going to be renovated into a combination Westin Hotel and high-end condominiums. (Renovation plans for the Book Cadillac have been on-again, off-again for years, but are currently in an on-again phase, and work is supposed to be complete next year.) Also, Fox Theater is an awesome old theater right downtown where they still hold plays. I’ve seen White Christmas and the Rockettes there.

Oh yeah, there’s also the three casinos, which frankly I think were a mistake, but at least they provide revenue and jobs for the city.

All that having been said, the neighborhoods are still rather bleak, with much urban blight in evidence. The mayor and city council are definitely focusing on fixing up downtown before they pay any attention to the neighborhoods. Presumably, they’re hoping that more businesses downtown will mean more tax revenue, which will then let them work on the neighborhoods.

Mexicantown is located next to the Canadian border by theAmbassator Bridge .

La Gloria’s Bakery alone is worth the visit. :cool: