So why did god deny free will to Pharoah?
Pharoah was already partly surrendered (partly surrendered his free will) to Satan, so no violation.
A person has free will and can surrender it to who they chose, in which case that other ‘god’ own that person to the degree surrendered. There is also the case of being born into a situation with pre-surrendered free will such as the case as a child born into slavery, or in the case of free will surrendered to God, John the Baptist with the Holy Spirit on him even in the womb.
Cite?
Pharaoh was ruler of the land of slavery and was keeping God’s people in slavery.
How does that prove he’d partly surrendered his will to Satan?
Really this is a nitpicky point to distract of the message of universal salvation but:
[QUOTE=1 John 5:19]
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
[/QUOTE]
Not sure it’s a nitpick, but I want to make sure I’m following your reasoning: on your read of it, has every ruler by definition partly surrendered his or her will to Satan, such that God can harden said rulers’ hearts – in a way that ordinary folks like us are immune to?
Are you under the control of Satan, then?
I’m becoming more and more convinced of the argument (recently championed by folks like N.T. Wright and Rob Bell) that modern Christians have developed a serious misunderstanding about Heaven and Hell and salvation, completely removed from the first-century church.
We cannot know what was in Judas’ heart before he died, but it appears unlikely that he was prepared for what we call heaven and Jesus called “[eternal] life” or “the age to come.” Descriptions of his last moments, whether he hanged himself or burst apart, seem to support the idea that he suffered for his betrayal.
To answer the question in the OP, “Did Jesus’ death redeem the betrayal of Judas” I have to answer an unqualified Yes. Because if it didn’t, it means that Jesus’ sacrifice was somehow lacking or insufficient. If God is God, His will cannot ultimately be thwarted and Jesus’ death redeemed everyone.
Anyone not born of God has already submitted at least some of their will to Satan when born into this world. The free will decision is very simply are you going to act out of Love, or not. Anything not from Love is of Satan and his kingdom.
Satan’s empire is build on a pyramid structure of authority, in terms of earthly rulers, Pharaoh is at the top, and all Satan controls falls to all in that pyramid, including Pharaoh.
Satan as ruler of the world, and all the pyramid power structures on earth can petition God to harden the heart of anyone in the pyramid including Pharaoh. aside: This is also how someone can fall in love, and that love turn to abuse, Satan requested that the heart be hardened so one spouse doesn’t see the pain inflicted on the other (also thus the reason for God allowing divorce). Because of Satan is ruler over the world God will respect that, but also make a fool of Satan in the long run.
So to answer you, no, ordinary folks are not immune, but usually also confined by their place in the pyramid to begin with.
How does Pharaoh, or any other ruler, surrender more of his free will to Satan, the so called deal with the devil: a simple statement saying something like ‘may the God of this world help me rule as he would rule’ This is basically invited Satan to take control of that leader and allows Satan to petition God to harden the heart of that ruler and other things
No I control Satan, as well as everyone else born of God. This is what is meant by overcoming the world, and what Moses did.
Cite? What evidence do you have that Pharaoh said anything close to this? What evidence do you have that any world leader in history has ever said anything close to this?
So the default is that God can harden the heart of anyone he pleases instead of letting free will play out, since we’re pretty much all born submitting some of our will to Satan at birth? Where did you learn this?
Again, though, you have no actual proof that Pharaoh made such a deal-with-the-devil statement, right? As far as the Bible goes, God never mentions any such deal when explaining why he’s hardening Pharaoh’s heart, but only ever mentions other stuff?
All apologies if this sounds like nitpicking, but I want to be sure: there was no talk of Satan or anyone else petitioning God to harden Pharaoh’s heart, right? God spoke solely of other factors?
This statement just doesn’t seem to make much sense to me. How can an all-knowing/all-powerful being “allow” free will and still have individuals be a participant in a predestined plan? Not speaking of Judas specifically, but of anyone really?
I chose to respond to this statement, which was free will…but if I was meant to do it by a higher power, then its not really free will, is it?
Can I get a little more clarification in the quoted statement please? Or, if I’m being a complete moron here, tell me to be quiet and get back in the corner. 
Free will can be compared to a kid that won’t come inside from the backyard. The parents will continue to wait till the kid gets tired enough to come inside and go to bed. Eventually the kid will give in, God knows this, and waits for the child to decide to come in instead of forcing it in most cases, but will force it at times for the good of the child for instance a bear coming around.
The predestined parts, besides the child just coming to one’s senses and going inside eventually I believe are things that are pre-surrendered. If you say to God use me however you want, God will and has the power to make it so.
If you responded to the statement for learning, then that is what it is. It is finding out more information to perhaps one day make a free will decision. I really don’t see inquiring as a free will decision, but a basic function of our souls.
To me a free will decision is how you chose to react to a person (or God), is it out of Love, anger, etc.
God does what He pleases (from scriptures). It is however free will that frees us. Yes we are born of this world and the whole world is under control of the evil one. It is only our free will decision to leave Satan and live by Love (God), that allows us to come to God.
But yes God can and does harden the heart of some, and some people request that god do exactly that.
I learned it from scriptures and prayer to understand them btw.
There is that the whole world is under control of the devil, and about slavery vs free, though there is no statement that Pharaoh made a further deal with the devil, but would have to be under the control of the devil.
There was no mention of the reason for the hardening of the heart. I can’t say there was no talk, as Satan is before the throne of God constantly.
Thanks for the quick reply, but I don’t see your response supporting your case whatsoever. The roles of parents/children falls massively short of omnipotence and predetermination. I understand that you are attempting to help me understand your point of view, and I appreciate that, but please give me the courtesy of a decent thought out example.
Back to the topic/question at hand:
Assuming God/Jesus is indeed omnipotent, how would Judas even have knowledge that he was willingly (or unwillingly, depending on one’s perspective) fulfilling his role?
How can Jesus’ death be redeemed when he had it planned the whole time?
Again, it goes back to free will vs. predetermination. (and anything in between is someone trying to sell religious afterlife insurance, and I’m just not buying any unless you have something of significance and provable that can convince me otherwise)
I reject that as pusillanimous hand waving. God could not achieve his goals without denying free will to Pharoah. Full stop. God only endorses free will when it suits his purpose; when it doesn’t, he forces his will on his pets.
God is all powerful but can that be said for Jesus the man, who could only do the will the Father had for Him? So Jesus the man was neither all powerful or all knowing (as shown in scriptures). Though Jesus does get inspiration and knowledge from the Holy Spirit, as we can today.
Judas is defined in scriptures as ‘a devil’ by Jesus, so some things change here over just a regular person. The Gospel of Judas seemed to indicate that Judas was a advanced being with understanding surpassing the other apostles. Without Jesus there is no redemption, but Jesus chose to share his body and blood (bread and wine) with a devil. Scriptures state light and darkness can’t exist together, and neither can the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan, as Judas took in the light of Jesus into his soul (by eating the bread and wine) and still needing to do what devils do, the fate of Judas was sealed. Jesus, through revelation, knew that a devil had to do what a devil does, and Jesus lets Judas, but because Christ was inside Judas, Judas was destroyed by it, torn apart with the war of light and darkness manifesting in it’s full strength inside the one being.
Does Judas’s free will come into play at all? We don’t know if Judas came to Jesus and confessed and asked Jesus to save him no matter what the cost, or perhaps Judas made a decision simply to follow Jesus as the others did.
No need to sell you anything is the point, you will want to buy and seek it when you are ready. That is the plan of God. It is very much like playing chess with a super super computer. You have free will to make any move allowed, but if the computer can see all possible moves out to infinity* the supercomputer can assure your free will will end in your surrender. Every contingency is pre-accounted for, there is no way for you to win, just time for you delay the inevitable. This also works on the grand scale, not just when you start to seek God but every contingency of everyone seeking God and their interrelations are all covered.
- I don’t know if chess could be played like this, if a super computer could see every possible move I don’t know if it could guarantee a win, but for this example we have to assume it can.
How does the planning of the way of redemption preclude the redemption? Why because it was preplanned would it invalidate it?
So you are saying hale Pharaoh, as if it were not for Pharoah’s free will begin taken God’s plan would fail. And if it was not for evil God could not be good.
God would Love it if Pharaoh reformed his ways and set all the people free instead of being a puppet of Satan’s hate. God is Love.
Some of His children are so hurt that they don’t respond to love, God will allow things like fear scare them to God if needed, perhaps the reason evil is currently allowed to exist- The wheat and tears (weeds) parable comes into play here.