Did Mohammed Ali EVER lose a fight? If not… did he ever come close to?
Yes. Joe Frazier.
Well if he was beaten, why does everyone rave about him?
Did Joe Frazier KO him?
Also Leon Spinks, Ken Norton, and Larry Holmes
Ali won the title three times, at 21, at 32, and at 36. He couldn’t fight for three years when he was stripped of his title for refusing to be drafted for religious reasons. These years (approximately between the ages of 25 to 28) were possibly the years at which he was at his physical pesak. Despite this, he fought and defended his title quite a few times during his three times as champ. Yes, he lost several matches, but he also fought some brilliant ones. See the movie When We Were Kings for the story of his winning back the title again at 32. He fought George Foreman in 1974 in Kinshasa, Zaire (the so-called “Rumble in the Jungle”). This fight was, some people think, the greatest ever. Ali had lost some of his quickness by that time, so everyone thought he was surely going to lose to Foreman’s incredible strength. Instead, Ali just stood and took Foreman’s punches for the first few rounds, avoiding the full force of the blows just enough that he wasn’t knocked out. By the later rounds, Ali was pretty badly beaten up, but he wasn’t tired like Foreman was. Then he released his full force and knocked out Foreman in the eighth round, since Foreman was too exhausted by that point to avoid Ali’s blows.
Ali was also a fascinating personality during his time as champ and doubtlessly this was part of the reason that he had and still has so many devoted fans.
I’d say he was more than a fascinating personality. IMHO, he was simply the finest athlete – by some considerable way – in recorded history. Others might feel more comfortable restricting that claim to the 20th century or not rate him at all but even still I think all of that is not what Ali is, or was, about. That wasn’t his main strength.
Ali brought Black America into the tv owning homes of white small town and/or non-integrated America (and beyond) for the first time. He was, intelligent, likeable, sharp witted, decent and even noble. This was not what most people thought or expected – if they knew what to expect at all. A lot of white’s had hardly spoken to a black person at that time. Certainly not in most of Europe.
Ali was the first black American people could actively relate to and people reacted in a warm and positive way. What he represented was new and at a time when civil liberties were at the top of the social agenda, his media image allowed radical shift’s to be made in the white culture’s perspective of ‘Blacks’. A change in perspective that eased the way for fundamental change.
Ali’s route to building to a better understanding was different to that of, for example, the equally worthy MLK. There was no direct preaching, no marches, just a human being doing his thing but nonetheless his example, IMHO, was ultimately a weightier contribution.
He pretty much turned things around single-handedly for people like my father and his generation whose knowledge of and about black people was limited to caricature. I’ve seen, more than once, normally sober men respond surprisingly out of character when Ali is discussed – he seemed to strike an emotional chord that is difficult to explain.
When he passes – I hope not for some considerable time – there will be more than one white elderly man with slightly watering eyes. And he danced like a butterfly, stung like a bee.
Trevor Berbick also beat Ali in his last ill-fated comeback attempt.
Mohammed Ali was and is and always will be what he is called the world over: “Champ”
And I cannot believe I wrote “danced” rather than “floated”.
He was a superb boxer but you can’t be serious in calling him “the finest athlete – by some considerable way – in recorded history”. He was great at what he did which was move quickly and with grace to beat people up… which is no mean feat I’ll grant you. But greatest athlete in recorded history? Seems like hyperbole.
On what basis do you make that judgement?
He was the greatest athlete in that he transcended his sport; I can’t think of any other athlete who moved public policy or public opinion on the major issues of their day. Athletes are public figures, and I’m sure we will remember Ali a lot longer for what he did out of the ring than we will remember, say, Michael Jordan for what he did on the court.
MadHatter, go see When We Were Kings. While I consider the people who post here to be both literate and expressive, I would be surprised if anyone explained Ali half as well as seeing the man in action would (no offense, London_Calling; I agree with what you said.) Really, see the movie.
London_Calling wrote:
> I’d say he was more than a fascinating personality.
You’re right. I was just understating my case because I thought it might be too hard to explain to somebody who hadn’t live through the times everything he meant.
I wrote:
> . . . at which he was at his physical pesak . . .
I meant “peak”, not “pesak”, of course.
astro – it’s obviously an individual judgement call: this is why I think that he probably was.
OK, first of all “recorded history”. That’s a lousy phrase but what I meant was “as far back as records of sporting achievement have been kept”
IMHO, of all sports boxing is the toughest to compete in. Why ? Because it requires a unique combination of strengths and skills:
(1) physical stamina, (i.e. endurance)
(2) plain, brute strength,
(3) mental strength,
(4) Mental stamina,
Then while you’re having seven bells knocked out of you and each of the four above is draining away very quickly, you need to maintain:
(5) rythym
(6) balance
(7) composure
(8) agility
(9) tactical nous
It’s the combination of mental and physical toughness joined with athleticism and utilising all of them while under extraordinary pressure and nearing exhaustion that does it for me. It just asks more questions of an individual than any other sport, IMHO.
Why Ali ?
Very, very fast hands,
balanced and rhythmic to the point of gracefulness (avoiding punches – and much else), hard puncher (relative to his era),
unquestioning self-belief,
authority in the ring (ability to dominate),
authority outside the ring (king of psyching out),
great ring tactician, (indicating composure under pressure),
made the media work for him
Other boxers have more of some of those attributes, other’s may have them all but I believe Ali in his prime just had more. Each to his own.
Wendall - agree, it is difficult. Thought it worth a stab.
Muhammad ALi OFFICIALLY lost fights to:
- Joe Frazier
- Ken Norton
- Leon Spinks
- Larry Holmes
- Trevor Berbick.
In fairness, the losses to Holmes and Berbick came after he was over the hill, and had (wisely) retired.
However, everyone who saw Ali fight Jimmy Young knows that Young didn’t just beat ALi, he humiliated him. Young outpointed Ali by a mile, and made Ali look as slow, confused, flatfooted and outclassed as Ali had made many other fighters look. The judges, of coure, pretended to see things differently, and gave ALi the decision.
That was only the most obvious “error” in Ali’s favor. I happen to think that Earnie Shavers and Ken Norton outpointed ALi decisively, and SHOULD have taken his crown long before Leon Spinks did.
That’s a big part of why I reject the idea that Ali was the greatest fighter of all time, let alone the greatest athlete of all time. YEs, it’s a damn shame that his political stance cost him his title while he WAS the best boxer on earth. But the boxing establishment made up for that sin by letting him keep the title for YEARS when he was no longer worthy of the belt.
The boxing establishment did this mainly because Ali was the biggest draw around, and the only heavyweight who could draw crowds and TV ratings. As long as Ali wasn’t knocked out, boxing officials bent over backwards to give him decisions he clearly hadn’t earned.
Look at the feeble, punch drunk Ali of today, and ask yourself if those lying officials did him a favor.
Think about it- how is a boxing champion supposed to know when it’s time to quit? Answer: when he starts to lose! When a champion loses a fight to journeymen (like Jimmy Young and Earnie Shavers, for instance) that he SHOULD have clobbered, he should know it’s time to hang up the gloves. But the judges who gave Ali tainted decisions didn’t let Ali get the message he needed to hear. The lied to Ali, and told him he was still “the Greatest.” as a result, ALi took years of additional punishment and blows, long after he should have been retired.
Mohammed Ali began his expansionist wars when he successfully invaded Najd in 1818 and defeated the Wahhabi empire. In 1820 he invaded Sudan and established hegemony there. He extended his rule to Syria as well. In 1839 the Ottoman sultan attacked him but Mohammed Ali defeated him too. So it seems he never lost a fight!
What’s that? You didn’t mean Mohammed Ali the ruler (1802-1849) of Egypt?
You meant the American boxer?
His name is Muhammad Ali.
I saw this fight in 1974, and Wendell’s analysis of it was pretty much what I remembered.
However, I saw the fight on Superfights a few years ago, and it’s my opinion that Ali was NEVER in serious danger, and was hardly “badly beaten up” at all. If you watch a replay of the fight, Ali was blocking nearly all the shots with his arms, and as powerful as Foreman’s shots looked, very few made solid contact. Ali was constantly using ring positioning, blocking and slipping most of the punches. I don’t believe Foreman was ever really close to knocking him down. (No implied criticism of Wendell Wagner–this was how I remembered the fight when I first saw it.)
London_Calling is right that Ali had GREAT skills and transcended the sport. It’s true that he lost a lot more fights than others, and Astorian rightly points out that he won a few he probably should have lost. However, I believe he should also be given credit not only for longevity but for being one of the very best fighters during a period when there were a LOT of top notch contenders (subjective of course, but ask Larry Holmes how many fighters he beat who could match up with a lot of Ali’s opponents). Ali’s losing and regaining his title when he was well past his peak and probably should have hung up hs gloves is something he shares with another great heavyweight, Joe Louis.
Thanks to BobT and Astorian for correcting me and pointing out that Trevor Berbick also beat Ali. I’d forgotten. I’ll bet Ali has also forgotten.
OK, that was a cheap shot. Sorry. I always was a big Ali fan and it really is quite tragic to see how mentally deteriorated he is today. He was an athlete was willing to sacrifice his position (fame, fortune) for what he believed in. I think you have to respect that.
Run, don’t walk, to the nearest video store and rent “when we we kings.” YOu will see that Ali wasn’t “almost beaten” by Foreman. Ali played Foreman for a chump, and then bitched slapped him to the mat!
When I was a kid Ali was my hero. (and I am white) Adjusting for inflation and media penetration Ali made more money and was more famous than Michael Jordon is today. Also Ali took a tough anti-war polital stance that hurt him, while Jordan does anything for a buck. When the polital heat was on Nike to do something about their sweatshop and child labor practices Jordan was quoted as saying, “It’s not my business what Nike does, I’m just here to get paid.” (approx) Think about that, a black american man who doesn’t care about labor standards!!! Ali was/is 10 times the man Jordan is. Jordan is no fit to was Ali’s dirty underware.
Oh I almost forgot, Ali’s most famous anti-war quote, “No Vietenamise (sp) ever called me niger.” Since the war was largely fought by poor blacks and poor whites this rang true with many people in the US.
Who said that Ali was “almost beaten” by Foreman? I didn’t. I said that he looked badly beaten up before he released his full strength in the later rounds. (I’ll take the word of people who know boxing more than me that he wasn’t really that bad off. I can only report what it looked like to me in the movie.) It was a brilliant piece of strategy. That’s why I described it as one of the greatest fights ever.
www.princeofheaven.comhas several media files that display Ali’s speaking talents.
It’s my opinion that his current physical condition also contributes to his fame. If he didn’t have ?Parkinson’s? and the accompanying physical disability, people wouldn’t view him the same way. I think that the sight of a once brash, incredibly talented young man transformed into someone who can barely walk or speak has a tremendous effect on many people.