Exactly. Instead of one bully and one victim, you’d just end up with two bullies. And Rhonda sounds like exactly the kind of person to turn that to her advantage.
Exactly.
I went through a very similar Rhonda-esque situation a few years ago. I wound up leaving that company for a better-in-every-way position, but the fact that I knew I couldn’t win re Rhonda was the impetus for getting myself out of there.
Yeo :nodding: I’ve seen it happen. The person who retaliated completely lost it and was written up for unprofessional behavior.
Speaking generally, I see this as such a frightened attitude. Person A can raise hell, but person B won’t so much as squeak in case something happens. There is a fear involved, and I can’t help but think that people should have more confidence in themselves than that.
Also, I know this is the Dope and people will run with exaggerations until they drop, but nobody is talking about having stand-up rows in the office, or running a hate mail campaign. All I am saying is that a more confident person would not only stand up to this woman but would put her in her box pretty quick. Attitude and the confidence to stand your ground are things that no HR drone can take from you.
I dunno. I come from a culture that sorts things out for themselves. I cannot picture reporting anybody to a manager ahead of just sorting shit out myself. And I cannot picture ever being scared of what some HR drone would do to me if there was a situation where I was in the right. I’ll fight my corner with them too.
True, but there is sometimes a fuzzy distinction between standing your ground and stooping to the bully’s level. It’s prudent to know the difference.
Given that they’ve put up with her for 8 years, yes.
I’ve seen people that obnoxious being assisted by HR/management in situations where they happened to be the boss of the people they were harassing, in situations where they had an out-of-work relationship that gave them leverage (related to one of the owners, affair with a high-level manager, BFF of boss’ son) and in cases where HR/the managers were afraid of the bully.
Plus, Rhonda has at least 8 years’ experience at playing that place’s rulebook and people like violins; Stainz doesn’t.
A lot of places will put up with the behavior either because 1) given the number of years Rhonda has been there, they’re afraid they won’t be able to replace her with someone who has her expertise; or 2) they’re afraid of any possible repercussions (in the retaliation case I mentioned, the Rhonda in question would have certainly filed suit for “wrongful termination” because of her age/sex/what-have-you).
That’s great and wonderful, if you are willing to fight that fight every day. Trust me I know. When I had my situation, I did stand upto her, repeatedly. That made no difference. The company was not prepared to fire her just because, and my standing up only made me look like a troublemaker, too, and then they lumped us both into the same pot. And she was willing to go balls to the wall and I just wanted a quiet working place, so she escalated it so every day she annoying me and others. It does no good if you can’t get away from them, and plus the department we were in, we were all forced to work together very closely (customer service). You couldn’t not talk to someone or ignore them all the time.
It’s lovely to say you’d be all tough but it doesn’t really work like that in real life, and no, I am not willing to fight with HR. I’d rather not be noticed by HR. They may just decide to let both of us go!
ETA: TDN brings up reasons the company won’t fire them. In our case, they knew this woman would bring up a wrongful termination suit. When they finally did fire her, she was pregnant. She had been caught stealing, on camera. Even with this evidence she still brought the company to court in a wrongful termination suit, claiming they had fired her because of her pregnancy. The company was only willing to go this far becuse they had taped evidence.
i’m for treating rhonda like you’d treat an unruly 1st grader. use the patronizing tone, mommy voice, ask her if she needs a time out, and when all else fails do the voice recorder thing and tell her that you’re recording her rudeness so she better curb it or else. 
when someone is rude in my office i have to write them up for it at least 3 times and have them sign it to acknowledge the warning…then if it continues i can fire them.
It’s possible that HR knows something about Rhonda that you don’t. (Love that her name is Rhonda, BTW, is it really or did you pick that? The Ron/Rhonda thread )
She may have a disagnosis (BPD or Depression or suchlike) and be working with a doctor. So that would make her essentially untouchable, while if you retaliate in kind you’ll be picking on the disabled worker.
So the way to deal internally may be to give yourself permission to be healthier than she is. See her as a sick person, rather than a mean person. The most powerful realization may be that this is probably exactly what her internal dialogue sounds like. The mean things she says are reflective of what she aims at herself 24/7. Horrifying thought, isn’t it?
Remember also that she learned this somewhere, and has been doing it all her life. Picture her six years old and her Mother talking to her in the same way with the same nasty tone. See her in elementary school chasing away everyone who tries to befriend her without knowing why/how it’s happening. Take a close look at the lonely life of a person who alienates everyone they come into contact with. Or worse yet, chases away all but the other mean, bitter, damaged people.
Try to smile sympathetically when she acts out and think of the damage she’s doing to herself.
There is also your physical response to deal with, and that’s harder. I imagine you’re getting that “zing” of adrenaline/fear/anger each time it happens, yes? The best I can tell you is to recognize it for the instinctive chemical response it is. The adrenaline will flow through and force the release and use of all the available glycogen. When you don’t run or fight or otherwise use up all that energy, your muscles may even begin to shake in order to burn it off. Then it will be burned off, and you’ll have a crash of exhaustion that may feel like sadness or depression.
When the adrenaline hits, try to find a place to work it off physically - maybe go walk up and down the stairs, or do pushups if there’s a private place. Think about which muscle group you’d like to build and find a strategy to use the adrenaline constructively.
Afterward you should feel a real “crash” as the energy normally released over time is now depleted. A drink of juice or other sugar is appropriate here to raise your blood sugar back to normal levels. Avoid caffeine, as it can increase any anxiety response.
I hope some of this is helpful - congrats on choosing the high road. You may or may not win the battle, but you’ll never regret living by your own values.
Okay, new thought.
I would arrange to meet with HR and your manager.
Write up what you are going to say and which references from the Labour Board support them - use terms like “bullying”, “toxic workplace” and other key messages - lift them directly from the references, and sorry to say, the media. This gives you some bite that you don’t have on your own.
This will, hopefully, force them to act, since it shows that you are doing your homework and they can’t be complacent about this anymore.
I don’t think I’m really all that clear on what her crimes have been. I totally understand how hard it is to relate what exactly it is she does that makes you uncomfortable, that tone of voice and subtlety of comments can be difficult to communicate. And since everyone else posting here is in agreement with you that she is a bitch and a bully, I can accept that it’s just me, but I still wonder if I’m missing something.
The examples you gave (interrupting, saying you complain about your job, telling you you’re rude) don’t strike me as “toxic workplace” material. If that’s what you told HR, I can see how there wouldn’t really be much they could do for you.
I know I’m not there and obviously there’s more to it, but based on the examples, my very first thought was: Rhonda’s three coworkers are close, and are picking on her. She has tried to inject herself into conversations because she feels left out, but done it poorly because a) she DOES have a different point of view on many things than her three coworkers (a likely reason why she’s not really one of the gang) and so her input can seem argumentative, and b) she is overcompensating for feeling like an outsider by being overly forceful.
So her attempts to be a part of things backfires, and she starts to feel like everyone (and maybe you in particular) is being mean to her. Maybe she actively doesn’t like you now, and feels that you are contributing to a negative workplace for her. We can’t fault her for this anymore than we can you for disliking her. So she vents to some buddies (or maybe a message board) about her coworker who ignores her, who is always complaining about her to the boss, etc, and they say, “Call her on it!” So she does. She asks you to stop complaining about your job. She tells you you’re being rude. Exactly the things you’re being advised to do.
I’m not saying it’s true. It’s perfectly likely that you have been nothing but pleasant to her, and she nothing but awful. I have definitely been part of situations (as an employee and as a supervisor) where people have been bullied and had their workplace turned into a nightmare. I just don’t see that here. You have your three buds, and another coworker you don’t like who you are being forced to be on a team with. The fact that someone has quit over her behaviour and your manager has told you he is intimidated by her is just weird to me, given the information you’ve provided. She might be rude, but does that really constitute harassment?
I really, really am not trying to be mean, and I can see that I am the only one who can’t get my head around the apparent gravity of the situation, but I would be really interested to know just what you said to HR, as well as what outcome you had hoped for. Did you provide details about the rants she goes on against you? Did you tell them your manager said he is afraid of her?
She won’t be able to. It would take about a hundred pages detailing very possible nuance and still you may not be able to understand it.
There is nothing as frustrating as having to work with a person like Rhonda, because while there is definitely a problem, it is a cumulative problem and trying to describe it only minimizes it.
I have worked with Rhondas before, and they are death for employee morale, I know exactly what the OP is describing.
I do know what you mean, and that’s well said about trying to describe it only minimizes it. But I still think there’s a chance that Rhonda is being misunderstood. I have also seen many a time where a somewhat unlikeable person becomes the butt for everyone else to kick (not on purpose, I truly think it’s often subconscious). Is there any chance of trying to kill her with kindness? If Stainz goes out of her way to include her in conversations, invites her for a coffee break together, does a little something nice for her every day for a week or two, could that hurt? If nothing else, it might help Stainz feel better?
Thanks for all the replies since I checked this thread last night. Let me address a few things …
I will not become a “bully” right back. Not only because that’s not in my nature, but because then in the eyes of HR, my manager, and the Union, it becomes a “me vs. Rhonda” issue, instead of a “Rhonda is a jerk” issue. So stooping to her level is not an option. I’m not a wimp, and I can stand up for myself, but I guess I don’t feel I should HAVE to defend myself against someone day after day. Especially when the attacks from her are random, often very passive-aggressive when they’re not outright aggressive, and they’re completely unfounded.
I cannot comfortably escalate it beyond my manager, because HER manager (Fred) is also intimidated by Rhonda and will do anything to avoid talking to her. Fred is also very close to retirement and is not known to be an effective problem-solver.
And no, her name is not really Rhonda, but it does start with an R.
For the first 5-6 months that I was at this job, I was naive enough to think that Rhonda liked me. I thought we had a good working relationship, and I chalked up any little snips/jabs from her to her hormones, her frustrations at home, not enough coffee that morning … It wasn’t until she criticized me in a team meeting that I realized that she had been hiding all of her resentment and dislike from me very effectively up until that point, and that she’d held it all in until she exploded. After that I was very wary of her, but until that point, I treated her the same as I treated the other members of our team - pleasantly, respectfully, and with a sense of humour, ready to laugh things off and move on. So “killing her with kindness” is not an option because I’ve been there, done that, and she still strongly disliked me.
Thank you TruCelt for detailing how I can manage the physical effect this stress is having. And also, until about a month ago, I was able to be sympathetic and see her as “sick” - I know she had a troubled childhood, has an unhappy marriage, a difficult relationship with her son and most of her family members. I was sympathetic to a degree that astonished the other two members of our team actually, I often defended her to them. Not that I’m a saint by any means, but I recognize she has problems and that she is probably doing the best she can.
Unfortunately I also recognize that she is NOT doing anything to deal with those problems - she is distracting herself instead - and one of her distractions is hassling me. I have no doubt that in her mind, she is innocent and I am somehow in the wrong. However, I have never instigated any of these discussions or consciously provoked any of these attacks. So, in the real world, I am not the problem - I am just her latest distraction.
The company recognizes that she is difficult. She has bid on other jobs but no-one else wants her because although she has some skills, she is just so difficult to work with. Her communication is very poor, her thought processes seem very scrambled, and she is unable to get along with most people. In this past year she yelled at a manager, and walked out of a meeting with another manager (both from different departments), with no consequences. Nobody wants to become her target, so nobody wants to formally report her.
Although I have been told that if the problems continue to escalate, action will be taken - most likely by restructuring, there is no guarantee that if push came to shove, seniority wouldn’t win out, and I might be in the position of losing MY job. I take this implication very seriously and am reluctant to rock the boat much further. I don’t really want her to lose her job - I would just like her to be made accountable for her words and her actions so that she keeps her nastiness to herself and maintains a professional level of behaviour at work. Or she could tele-commute, or do her job from another office in the building. There are ways to manage this situation, but no-one is willing to do it.
All I can do is manage myself.
It sounds like you have a pretty reasonable attitude towards this whole situation, Stainz. I’m not as compassionate towards people who bring their personal problems to work; we all have problems and stresses, but most of us manage to maintain at least some level of politeness to the people we’re forced to spend our days with.
How about getting into Buddhism? I was reading about a Buddhist monk who was grateful for a very annoying student - the student gave him lots of practice for all the things he was trying to achieve with patience and tolerance and not letting things bother him.
LOL Cat Whisperer - I don’t think I’m nearly zen enough to be a Buddhist. Although, if I were able to achieve that outlook, I would be EXTREMELY grateful to Rhonda indeed!
I ha
Whoops – don’t know what happened there!
As I was saying in response to Cat Whisperer, we have an unwritten rule at work that, once you pass through the doors, your personal issues don’t exist. It’s up to the managers as to how to enforce it.
Most of my coworkers, including myself get the message loud and clear. It’s not that we never talk or anything – we do, but only in brief snippets.
We’ve been told people who don’t adhere to it may be fired. Whether or not this actually happens is a whole other story.
I vote for keeping a squirt bottle on your desk, combined with clicker training. Toss m&ms into her mouth when she’s being pleasant; squirt her in the back of the head when she’s a bitch.