I’m not going to be like Dio by posting this in the original thread and this looks like a good alternative.
I could be wrong but something seems fishy. What sort of person looks for sympathy via their very first post?
And not to branch out too much into the realm of metaphysics, how different is the grief you feel at that point from the grief from having a baby die at, say, a day old?
I would have had an older sister, but she died a few hours after being born. I haven’t talked about it that many times with my mother, but she told me once about what it was like. It’s remarkable exactly how similar what she reported was to what I’ve heard about miscarriage - it’s terribly painful to part from all your hopes and dreams for the child’s future. That seems to be the case whether it’s a child, or a fetus, or (as Diogenes has explained to us) nothing at all. It’s not as though my mother, in a few hours with Kim, got to know her and get used to her personality. Even if she’d been more than a few hours old, babies are frankly pretty much interchangeable. Diogenes could have just as easily used the same line of reasoning to explain to my mother about how she hadn’t had the baby that long, and it’s not like they’d played Parcheesi together, so it’s not really anything to get upset about.
And beyond simply having hopes and dreams for a child, there’s a tremendously powerful biology underlying how parents feel about their children. Not that I want to distill a parent’s feeling for a child down to hormones, but it’s simply ridiculous to expect a parent’s feelings about their child to be rational. It’s not like you only love a child because it’s such a good piano player or finger-painter. You can’t even have a normal conversation with the damn things till they’re about ten years old. It’s starkly intellectually dishonest for Diogenes to attempt to pretend that a parent’s feelings towards an infant or a young child are somehow rooted in something more rational than their feelings towards a pregnancy.
I DID think that when I first read it, yes. However, I think the point is, Dio is pretty much insulting anyone who’s ever been in the kind of situation that SadDad supposedly is.
Diogenes the Cynic should be renamed Diogenes the Self-Righteous. Just my humble suggestion.
Enjoy,
Steven
You did.
I can’t quote within quotes–the directions to do so sound like origami as translated from the Japanese to me, but I copied and pasted it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic
I have a wife and two kids. Do they count as human contact?
Yep. Very limited.<----that’s from you, Swan
What is up with the mean-ness? I suppose no-one here has every said anything tactless in RL or on the boards. I don’t even like Dio all that much, but jeesh, c’mon already.
I’m sorry. I can’t go along with the assertion that a false pregnancy is exactly the same kind of tragedy as a dead child.
There’s something of a false binary in this thread about how my position is being characterized. It’s being suggested that I think that no one should feel bad at all over the loss of a pregnancy (false or otherwise). That’s not something i ever said or suggested. I said in my first post that it was “sad” and “disappointing.” I just think that comparing a false pregnancy (as rotten and as heartbreaking as it may be) to the loss of an actual child (or even fetus) is a little hyperbolic.
Think about it. If you had to choose going through a false pregnancy or the loss of say, a six month old baby, would you have any trouble at all in making that decision? Do you really think the latter is not worse than the former?
What a crappy analogy.
Maybe so, but it’s NOT the time, nor the place, to play the “Let’s measure the Proper Grief Hierarchy”. Do you not understand this?
Bullshit.
“Very limited” was in reference to “human contact”. If you think that means I consider Dio’s family to be “barely human” then you need to apply for a clue.
I’ve been impressed by the complete lack of self-righteousness by those indulging in the public shaming of Diogenes. Even as they sharpen their pitchfork tines, they’ve been nothing but a good-tempered mob willing to listen to all sides.
Here’s how I read Swan’s post: Yep [you do have some human contact]. [But it’s] Very limited [ie, only your wife and kids]. I don’t think **Swan **implied that his family was only partially human.
That would be true if I said that people have no right to feel bad about false pregnancies, but that’s not what I said. If it’s really your position that anyone who feels the death of a born child is worse than a false pregnancy is “inhuman, hateful and heartless,” then I guess we just see things differently.
Yes, he has explained that he does. Several times.
Right, but again, he didn’t know that at first. Nor did his wife. As I said earlier, hysterical pregnancy so closely mimics a regular pregnancy, it’s impossible to tell the difference without an ultrasound. Hormonal and physical changes, all usually caused by an intense desire to have a child and causing yourself to believe- not just think “maybe I’m pregnant”- but believe so intensely that there is no question in your mind that you are pregnant. Your body plays a very dirty trick on itself.
No, I said your comments were “inhuman, hateful, and heartless”, because they were. It doesn’t MATTER which loss is greater, asshat.
I think what Swan meant to say is, “oh, I think you misread me. I merely meant that his contact was limited.”
But why not mix a little poison into every post? After all, every one of us is just too good to be true, our shit the odor of perfume, and anyone who dares question us or have a slightly different opinion is a repugnant beast, fit for nothing but the toes of our boots.
He’d still be wrong in that assumption.
And yet, he continues to do just that.
I didn’t interpret it as “looking for sympathy,” as much as “looking for someplace to vent.” And why not? Why is that any less worthy of a first post as, say, venting one’s rage at some politician, or sharing a silly story? Is there some sort of tradition that a newcomer should first tell 5 bland anecdotes before trying to be funny, and then 3 humorous stories before he/she can express rage or sorrow?
(Upon learning that Diogenes has a wife and kids.)
Oh my god. Would you give the guy a break? If one time you make an insensitive remark (which is also truthful) then your wife and kids probably have a bad life?