Disagreement over meaning of the flag

[RTFirefly]

@Shodan

Of course they did. But the right has the same difficulty of convincing the left “we don’t mean the civil rights marchers” as the left does of convincing the right “we don’t mean the troops”.

Could you restate that, please? The way I read it, you’re saying that the right has difficulty convincing the left that they don’t mean the flag represents the civil rights marchers, which is hardly the case.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@puddleglum

That is why the protests are so offensive. By protesting the anthem and the flag, you protest all of it. If people wanted to protest the police, there are police stations in every city in this country. The players could take their day off and go march in front of the police stations. Yet by choosing the to protest the anthem and the flag, they are protesting the entire country for which it stands.
If one of the NFL players wore a headband that said MLK sucks, people would probably get upset about that, even if he claimed he only meant that MLK was a bad husband because of his infidelity and he loved MLK’s civil rights work.

(bolding mine)
What is it about the flag and the anthem that people are protesting?

[Shodan]

@RTFirefly

Could you restate that, please? The way I read it, you’re saying that the right has difficulty convincing the left that they don’t mean the flag represents the civil rights marchers, which is hardly the case.

The right wouldn’t say that only soldiers sacrificed for the flag. If that’s any clearer.

‘I am not disrespecting the troops when I disrespect the flag’ vs. ‘I am not poor-mouthing the civil rights marchers by talking about soldiers’.

Both sides want to include what they want to include, and exclude what they want to exclude, and (often) both sides disagree if they can, or not.

I agree that it was unclear. Hopefully this is better.

Regards,
Shodan

[puddleglum]

@Snowboarder_Bo

(bolding mine)
What is it about the flag and the anthem that people are protesting?

The are protesting the country which the flag and anthem represents. The same country that has made them rich and famous.

[iiandyiiii]

@puddleglum

The are protesting the country which the flag and anthem represents. The same country that has made them rich and famous.

So it was wrong/offensive for successful (rich and famous) people to protest the country in the 60s during the Civil Rights movement?

[puddleglum]

@RTFirefly

They’re not protesting the anthem and the flag. They’re protesting that our system of justice seems to give free rein for cops to shoot and kill unarmed black people for little if any reason. They are protesting by means of a quiet and discreet action - kneeling - during the national anthem.

People offended by that are people looking for an excuse to be offended. It’s bad enough to be a snowflake, but they’re beating the bushes for things to be a snowflake about.

Furthermore, they are fundamentally appealing TO the ideals represented by the flag, by insisting that America live up to the ideals that it theoretically stands for. They are invoking those ideals, not protesting against them. That demonstrates belief in those ideals and their validity.
Why should they do that? The point of protest is to make people aware of your grievances. If you’re a football player, and you’re on camera with millions of people watching, that’s your best opportunity. Why should they protest in a less visible way?

They are protesting the country by purposely and publicly disrespecting the anthem and the flag that stands for the country. The reason they are doing so is that they think the police are biased toward black men. This is a dumb way to protest that because neither the anthem nor the flag stand for the police. If they want to protest the police, they should do so directly, instead of protesting against the whole county because of the police. If multiple members of a football team led a protest march outside of a police station, they would have all the publicity they could ask for and they could still say they love their country.
It may make you feel better to call those offended names, but having a love for one’s country is a natural part of humanity. People have fought and died for that love and when privileged people disrespect something you love, being offended is a natural response.

[puddleglum]

@iiandyiiii

So it was wrong/offensive for successful (rich and famous) people to protest the country in the 60s during the Civil Rights movement?

No, because they were not protesting the country, they were protesting the unjust laws. The leaders of the civil rights movement never denigrated the country, they called it to live up to its ideals. That is what made the Civil Rights movement so effective, they wrapped themselves in the declaration of independence and Christianity.

[iiandyiiii]

@puddleglum

No, because they were not protesting the country, they were protesting the unjust laws. The leaders of the civil rights movement never denigrated the country, they called it to live up to its ideals. That is what made the Civil Rights movement so effective, they wrapped themselves in the declaration of independence and Christianity.

They protested the country in the same sense that Kapaernick is protesting the country many times, quite reasonably, IMO, since it was the country that hadn’t passed laws like the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act.

They’re both (Civil Rights Activists and Kapaernick/NFL kneelers) focused on perceived injustices in the way black people are treated by authority figures. They’re both protesting peacefully.

And based on polling in the 60s, they both are opposed by a majority of Americans in their methods. Hopefully, like America eventually came around on Civil Rights, eventually America will come around on these sorts of peaceful protests for equal treatment in law enforcement.

[Sherrerd]

@puddleglum

The leaders of the civil rights movement never denigrated the country, they called it to live up to its ideals.

And that’s exactly what the NFL protesters are doing.

[elbows]

Funny how when the white guy makes good, HE made that happen. But when it’s a black athlete, ‘the country’ made him famous and he should be beholding for the privilege somehow.

[Airbeck]

Yeah every time I hear them referred to as “ungrateful” I wonder if the person saying it expects a personal thank you from these athletes or something? Who is it that they are supposed to be expressing gratitude to? Where does this ungrateful idea come from exactly?

[RTFirefly]

@puddleglum

They are protesting the country by purposely and publicly disrespecting the anthem and the flag that stands for the country.

Taking a knee. Soooooooooooooo disrespectful!

When Trump and Fox News and people like you get equally upset about stuff like this, I’ll take their anger about flag disrespect a bit more seriously. (And there’s a ton of stuff like that out there, and all the flag fetishizers pretty much ignore it.)

The reason they are doing so is that they think the police are biased toward black men. This is a dumb way to protest that because neither the anthem nor the flag stand for the police. If they want to protest the police, they should do so directly, instead of protesting against the whole county because of the police.

We’ve already covered this ground, thanks.

If multiple members of a football team led a protest march outside of a police station, they would have all the publicity they could ask for and they could still say they love their country.

IYHO. Maybe now, of course, but last month? There’s no reason to believe it, other than your say-so.

It may make you feel better to call those offended names, but having a love for one’s country is a natural part of humanity. People have fought and died for that love and when privileged people disrespect something you love, being offended is a natural response.

This isn’t a natural response. This is a bunch of people enjoying a getting a good, righteous (in their own eyes, at least) mad on. If you want to be part of that, then apparently I’m here to help.

[Clothahump]

@sciurophobic

Why does the right equate what they see as disrespect for the flag as disrespect for the troops, while the left does not?

The flag represents the USA which is the only country in the world where individual freedom is prized and valued. And a lot of soldiers died in the course of action to keep our country free. The connection is that if you diss the flag, you are dissing the servicemen and women who died so that you could have the basic freedom to be stupid enough to diss the flag in the first place and not see the hypocrisy in doing so.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Clothahump

The flag represents the USA which is the only country in the world where individual freedom is prized and valued.

Come again?

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Clothahump

The flag represents the USA which is the only country in the world where individual freedom is prized and valued. And a lot of soldiers died in the course of action to keep our country free. The connection is that if you diss the flag, you are dissing the servicemen and women who died so that you could have the basic freedom to be stupid enough to diss the flag in the first place and not see the hypocrisy in doing so.

Is this what you believe, or what you believe the right believes?

[somepumpkin]

@Clothahump

The flag represents the USA which is the only country in the world where individual freedom is prized and valued. And a lot of soldiers died in the course of action to keep our country free. The connection is that if you diss the flag, you are dissing the servicemen and women who died so that you could have the basic freedom to be stupid enough to diss the flag in the first place and not see the hypocrisy in doing so.

Our local news interviewed some Panthers fans about the issue the other night. There were also a couple of Afghanistan-war veterans in the bar, so they asked them, too. They said, and I’m paraphrasing, that one of the freedoms that they were protecting for us is the right to protest. They found no personal disrespect in someone protesting the flag or the country.

So please quit putting your own personal and internal spin on what you think we should all think about that goddamn flag.

[SpoilerVirgin]

I don’t know how many times I’ve quoted Peter Beinart’s article The War Over Patriotism on this message board since it was first written in 2008, but it keeps having new relevance. Beinart was referencing the controversy over wearing flag lapel pins, but he makes some excellent points about the way that conservatives and liberals view patriotism and its symbols.

…conservatives tend to believe that loving America today requires loving its past.

---

When evaluating America, they’re more likely to remember that for most of human history, tyranny has been the norm. By that standard, America looks pretty good. Conservatives worry that if Americans don’t appreciate—and celebrate—their nation’s past accomplishments, they’ll assume the country can be easily and dramatically improved. And they’ll end up making things worse.

If conservatives tend to see patriotism as an inheritance from a glorious past, liberals often see it as the promise of a future that redeems the past.

---

For liberals, America is less a common culture than a set of ideals about democracy, equality and the rule of law. American history is a chronicle of the distance between those ideals and reality. And American patriotism is the struggle to narrow the gap. Thus, patriotism isn’t about honoring and replicating the past; it’s about surpassing it.

Conservatives tend to be particularly moved by stories of Americans showing extraordinary devotion to our patriotic symbols.

---

But liberals more often lionize people who display patriotism by calling America on the carpet for violating its highest ideals.

The bottom line is that to a conservative, honoring the flag = recognizing the greatness of our country, and to a liberal, protesting the flag = recognizing that we can do better.

[mikecurtis]

@Clothahump

The flag represents the USA which is the only country in the world where individual freedom is prized and valued. . .

Human Freedom Index

The Human Freedom Index presents the state of human freedom in the world based on a broad measure that encompasses personal, civil, and economic freedom. Human freedom is a social concept that recognizes the dignity of individuals and is defined here as negative liberty or the absence of coercive constraint. Because freedom is inherently valuable and plays a role in human progress, it is worth measuring carefully. The Human Freedom Index is a resource that can help to more objectively observe relationships between freedom and other social and economic phenomena, as well as the ways in which the various dimensions of freedom interact with one another.

**Rank   (change)  Country     Pers Frdm Econ Frdm  HFI**
1	=	 Hong Kong 	9.08	9.03	9.06	▲ 	
2	=	 Switzerland 	9.41	8.25	8.83	▲ 	
3	▲ 1	 New Zealand 	9.00	8.35	8.67	▲ 	
4	▼ 1	 Ireland 	9.31	7.98	8.64	▲ 	
5	▼ 1	 Denmark 	9.58	7.67	8.62	▲ 	
6	=	 Canada 	9.24	7.98	8.61	▲ 	
6	▲ 1	 UK 	        9.29	7.93	8.61	▲ 	
6	▲ 2	 Australia 	9.29	7.93	8.61	▲ 	
9	=	 Finland 	9.43	7.68	8.55	▲ 	
10	▲ 4	 Netherlands 	9.45	7.63	8.54	▲ 	
11	▲ 1	 Luxembourg 	9.41	7.65	8.53	▲ 	
11	=	 Austria 	9.50	7.56	8.53	▲ 	
13	▼ 1	 Germany 	9.44	7.55	8.49	▲ 	
13	▼ 3	 Norway 	9.47	7.51	8.49	▲ 	
15	=	 Sweden 	9.37	7.46	8.42	▲ 	
16	=	 Malta       	9.08	7.74	8.41	▲ 	
17	▲ 1	 Belgium 	9.25	7.51	8.38	▲ 	
18	▲ 1	 Czech Rep	9.16	7.53	8.34	▲ 	
19	▲ 3	 Portugal 	9.15	7.49	8.32	▲ 	
20	▲ 2	 Lithuania 	8.82	7.81	8.31	▲ 	
21	▲ 4	 Poland 	9.18	7.42	8.30	▲ 	
21	▼ 2	 Estonia 	8.89	7.70	8.30	▲ 	
23	▼ 4	 USA 	        8.79	7.75	8.27	▲ 	
24	▲ 2	 Latvia 	8.90	7.57	8.24	▲ 	

[VinylTurnip]

In your face, Latvia!

[snfaulkner]

@Clothahump

The flag represents the USA

I agree

which is the only country in the world where individual freedom is prized and valued.

*Only *country? I’m wary of that claim, but I’ll give it a pass for now.

And a lot of soldiers died in the course of action to keep our country free.

Absolutely I agree!

The connection is that if you diss the flag, you are dissing the servicemen and women who died so that you could have the basic freedom to be stupid enough to diss the flag in the first place and not see the hypocrisy in doing so.

I would totally agree with this if one of those basic freedoms they fought and died for wasn’t the right to protest.