I’ve read statistics* showing that the number of black male/white female marriages are more than double white male/black male marriages. Anectdotally speaking, that would seem like an understatement.
The marriage rates of white males/asian females is also much higher than asian males/white females.
Now the common perception seems to base these discrepencies on penis size. Black men, having larger penises than white men attract white women. Left with fewer options, white men pursue asian women, who in turn accept the white male because he in turn is better endowed than the asian male. Now there has to be a better explanation than that, but if so, what is it?
*will need to search for them again later. Google right now is yielding too many porn sites in the results.
My (baseless, and hopefully not labeled racist) theory:
In this culture, traditional gender roles have men being agressive, women submissive. Black culture seems to be in general more agressive than white culture. See “showtime at the apollo”, Chris Tucker, Eddie Murphy, the stereotypical “sassy black woman”, etc. Many asian cultures place emphasis on politeness, humbleness, and so on.
So it’s not too far a conceptual leap to think that many black men will seem super-masculine, while asian women may seem super-feminine.
I have never seen an Asian male/black female couple.
Makes me wonder who they’re dating.
I’m actually very attracted to Asian and Native American men. They never ask me out. I think Asian men in particular find the white American female to be too aggressive/assertive.
Using penis size to explain these differences is a ridiculous assertion. It has nothing to do with either penis size but more about prevalent cultural differences and stereotypes in America. Black men are portrayed as masculine oversexualized figures in American media. 9 times out of 10 the noveau black portrayal of the black male is one that tends to be either a charismatic super star (like denzel washington), a musician (lenny kravitz, Jay Z), or a sports star (Michael Jordan, Shaquille O’neil, etc.) This appeals to white culture in general because these figures hold a prominent place in white AND black society.
Asian men are disproportionately viewed in the opposite direction in highly stereotypical roles. When was the last time you’ve seen a asian-american male portrayed in a normal role as a human being? Most movie roles seem to pigeonhole asian men into highly stereotyped roles such as martial arts stars, exoticized (last samurai, Anna and the king) characters or antagonists (asian villains in various American films.) This has had an overall negative impact on how well asian men have integrated into the U.S. Not to mention there are a number of American war films which portray asians (asian men in particular) in a negative light. Add to that a latent hostility and competitiveness towards asian males in particular because of wars fought with asian nations in the past.
This is completely anecdotal, but this topic did come up in a class I was teaching once, and one thing that was suggested was that black men may be open to dating women with a greater range of body types than white men.
It is more of who asks who out thing. Black men ask white women and black women out. While many white men do not ask black women out. White men do ask out asian and white girls. Asian men ask out white women much more rarely than asian women. It has nothing to do with penis size. (except in maybe a very vewry very very small minority, cause there are always a few cranks)
I think it cuts both ways. The less Westernized Asian men probably do find white American women to be too aggressive. At the same time though, white women seldom express interest in Asian men, for reasons that TheQuagmire stated quite well. I’m sure that this aggravates the problem, and discourages Asian men from trying to break this barrier.
There is a mystique attached to white women for some black men. White women set the standard of beauty in this society because of their numerical dominance. Men of any stripe tend to rest their egos on the prettiness of the woman hanging on their arm. Ergo, having a white women–even an ugly one–represents accomplishment to some black men.
Thinking about it along socioeconomic lines, a black man is more likely to be “marrying up” if he marries a white woman. A white man is more likely to be “marrying down” if he marries a black woman. Even when socioeconomics are equal, the perception is still there.
Another hypothesis: the role of perceptions and stereotypes. Black women have weird stereotypes attached to them. Aggressive. Mean. Rude. Sexually loose. Stupid. Ugly. Ball-busting. Tending towards obesity. Maybe white men may stay away from them because of these stereotypes. Black men have their share of bad stereotypes, but I believe they have more positive ones: They are seen as strong, masculine, cool, atheletic, handsome, and sexually skillful. Thus, white women may find some attraction there.
It would be interesting to see if white families are more accepting of black husbands or black wives. Also, I wonder if black male-white female marraiges last as long, on average, as white male-black female pairings?
If we assume men do the romantic pursuing while women wait to be found (snerk), then it would make sense to find more black man-white woman matches than the reverse, based simply on probability.
Another reason that I haven’t seen discussed on this thread yet as to why so many black men are attracted to white women and would rather date white women than black women is the ‘forbidden fruit’ factor.
Let’s not forget that it hasn’t been more than a few decades when it was considered socially unacceptable (by both blacks and whites) for a black man to ‘be’ with a white woman. Even in the 60’s, it was not uncommon in some parts of the Deep South and in Texas for a black man to be lynched by the community-at-large simply for looking at a white woman in the “wrong” way.
As a result, the ‘taboo’ appeal factor of the white woman continues to hold sway over many black men, and is a major reason why so many black men pursue white women with such inexplicable fervor and zeal, especially sports stars and celebrities, e.g., Kobe Bryant, O.J. Simpson, etc.
And whether you want to agree with this or not, one need only to eavesdrop on a conversation with black males to realize that the objectification of white women in black male culture has reached mythological proportions, where white women are considered trophies and the ultimate symbols of success and fame among arriviste black males. Perhaps there is a genetic basis to this inclination as well, such as a desire to “marry” or procreate up."
This inclination could also be a reason why we see so many black-on-white rapes nowadays in segregated cities like Chicago, where the typical M.O. is a homeless or welfare-class black male, preying on unsuspecting yuppie white females in places like Lincoln Park/Lakeview/Wicker Park.
Nevertheless, single and upwardly mobile black women, by and large, continue to be extremely resentful of the sexual power that white women have over black men in terms of swallowing up the few remaining eligible black men that aren’t incarcerated, gangbangers, deadbeats or otherwise undesirable, as they continue to consider black men who date white women as racial sellouts.
“…so many black-on-white rapes nowadays”? Do you have any kind of cite for this bold assertion?
I thought the vast majority of rapes were usually same race scenarios and that “poor black man rapes white yuppie female” situations happened so infrequently it fell into the “man bites dog” territory statistically and newswise.
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Oh give me a break. This “taboo” appeal factor is a two way street and more often than not it’s not about the tabooness at all but mutual attraction. You’re making it seem like Black men are animalistic primitives running out and grabbing white women off the street :rolleyes:. Do you really think white women don’t have a say in who they date?
This is the type of rhetoric I commonly see coming from hardcore racists who want to “protect” their women when in fact it’s just sour grapes at seeing any interracial black/white relationships.
Complete horseshit. Interracial rapes are a RARITY that’s why when they are reported it becomes such a news item. Rape just like violence is by far committed intraracially by an enormous percentage majority than interracially.
I was going to ignore your post, but I can’t let this slide.
Most rapists go after folks in their same race. Whites are usually raped by whites. Blacks are usually raped by blacks. If white women are being raped in disproportionate numbers, my mind wouldn’t automatically go to “black men fiend for white women”. Rather, I would assume it’s because the ratio of white women to black rapists is higher than the ratio of black women to black rapists. I once read that a study showed that the incidence of white men-on-black women rapes was 8%, while black men-on white women rapes was half of that.
I think the “many” is overstated. Most black men are in relationships with black women, period. And I also think the “inexplicable fervor and zeal” is also overstated. To be sure, there are a few black men who are obsessed, but I don’t think black men, as a group, are obsessed. As much as I don’t like OJ, I think it’s unfair to use him as example. He was married to both a black woman and a white woman. Just based on this fact there’s no reason to think that he is attracted only to white women.
White people also have stereotypes that may be at play. There’s the perception that white women are sexually easy, willing to perform certain acts that black women won’t, and that they know how to take care of their men. These perceptions, along with the “beauty” thing, may affect their attractiveness to some black men.
Gosh, would anyone mind first substantiating the premise(s) of the OP? For example, provide the statistics that black male/white female marriage more than doubles white male/black female marriage in prevalence? And that black males penis size exceeds that of white males, all else equal? (Feel free to first consult Cecil to determine that the difference between black and white male erect penis size is practically insignificant)
Only after the premise is established does it make sense to postulate about root causes.
Or are we just going to perpetuate stereotypes based on (so far) unsubstantiated conjecture and anecdotes?
I read Freedom Summer the other day (a statistical study done on the civil rights experiment during the summer of '64) and it supported two claims that have been made above–
•Southern black men were being beaten to death by whites for a variety of reasons, one of which was “inappropriate” conduct with regard to southern white women. Affluent northern women arrived and black men were attracted to them partially because it was so taboo. Likewise for the women, who were sexually repressed and found their interracial relationships very rebellious. So the “forbidden fruit” theory has some merit on both sides.
•Black men were simply more open to a variety of body types. One SNCC worker said something to the effect of, “Until I came to the south, nobody found me attractive. Black men in the south asked me out repeatedly.”
Granted, this was 1964 and reasons may have changed, but this thrill of rebellion is probably integral to the appeal. I wonder what the statistics would be by age–if these interracial relationships occur more in the rebellious period of an indivudual’s life.
You are unlikely to find publicly disclosed statistics regarding the races of perpetrators and victims of sexual assault, as publicizing such stats would more than likely provoke the ire of civil rights groups such as “Operation Push”, who would invariably argue that such actions create a disparate impact by law enforcement.
However, one need only to peruse the Metro section of the Chicago Tribune or the weekly police blotter of those free newspapers available at the local White Hen, like Skyline on a long term basis – 25 years or more – to realize that black-on-white rapes in Chicago neighborhoods – e.g., Lincoln Park/Lakeview/Wicker Park – where there are a high concentration of white yuppie women – is not an uncommon phenomenon nowadays.
I would argue that such crimes, however ‘un-pc’ it may sound, are in fact a growing phenomenon in the City of Chicago, with a least one or two highly publicized incidents of a serial black rapist having gone on an “APB-style” black-on-white raping spree requiring a “community alert” at least EVERY YEAR for the past 10-15 years in Chicago.
Unless you have been a long-time Chicago resident – and I mean the city and not the 'burbs – this is hard to fathom, let alone comprehend, as most major U.S. cities are either relatively integrated or do NOT have the equivalent of a “South Side of Chicago.”
In that respect, Chicago continues to be, in my opinion, one of the most segregated cities I have ever seen in my life.
Also, all these “penis-size” theories that I’m hearing are really pathetic. Besides invoking popular racist stereotypes and urban legends, they are in fact the epitome of “post hoc ergo propter hoc”-type reasoning. Please spare us such fallacious nonsense.
First, I find it disturbing that ‘interracial marriage statistics’ yields only porn sites on Google. I guess given the way people are throwing around ‘Big Buck Negro’ comments on this thread, I shouldn’t be surprised.
There’s a lot of discussion there. The data do in fact indicate that BM/WF marriages are more common than WM/BF marriages, and that WM/AF marriages are more common than AM/WF marriages. After reviewing several different studies, the blogger concludes:
(I’ll translate the author’s words from sociological jargon to English.)
The likelihood of interracial marriage increases as education increases
Interracial marriages tend to be educationally homogamous–that is, they tend to be between people with similar education.
For those interracial marriages that are not homogamous, the Davis-Merton hypothesis (higher nonwhite SES to obtain a white partner) is more true for black-white pairs than other interracial pairs – that is, there’s a model of marriage where people seek to marry others of equal social standing. In cases where there’s an educational dissimilarity, it tends to be that the partner from the lower status race has the higher education, thus there’s some ‘marrying up’ going on.
One must control for the SES disparity by looking at the corresponding SES differential between white couples, b/c white males of high SES also tend to marry females of lower SES (though still high in absolute terms) – Interesting spin on this being male choice, that is, the blogger is reading this as ‘men seek to marry women who have lower SES status than they do’ (presumably because they’re more interested in non-economic considerations, like looks or personality or because they want to be the power-holder). Equally, it could be read as ‘women seek to marry men of higher SES’
Blacks are much less likely than other groups to intermarry – Given that blacks have lower SES than most other racial groups and that they’re (arguably) more heavily stigmatized than other racial groups, this isn’t surprising.
Asians are intermarrying at very high rates, particularly Asian females – This one is a bit harder to explain, I think. Asians tend to have incomes that are similar to whites, perhaps slightly higher. So why aren’t all those high-income Asian males marrying lower income non-Asian females? I think here there is some role for both media images (computer nerd or grim and sexless Chow-Yun Phat types) and culture (Asian men may expecting women to still acknowledge the male-superiority that rules in the Old Country.)
My total unfounded suspicion is this (speaking of averages):
Asian men expect/desire traditional women.
Asian women desire/demand a more liberated/powerful/equal role than prevailed in the Old Country. A compromise between Asia and America.
Some white men want a woman who is less liberated/powerful and more ‘traditional’ than is the current expectation in the US, but not as traditional as prevails in Asia. A compromise between Asia and America.
Therefore, to an Asian woman, a white man who desires a marriage that is very traditional by American standards may be very liberal by Asian standards. Therefore, they’re both happy.
"Similar to whites, or perhaps slightly higher"? What a patronizing thing to say. How about giving Asian Americans some credit by using more magnanimous and egalitarian language such as ‘Asian Americans tend to have incomes greater than or equal to whites’?
"So why aren’t all those high-income Asian males marrying lower income non-Asian females?" Your statement fails to take into consideration that interracial marriages, according to the Gene Expressions article you cited, saw increased likelihood of interracial marriage among those with higher levels of education and that such marriages tended to occur between individuals with similar educational backgrounds. So, perhaps the reason why you don’t see as many Asian male/white female couples as vice versa can be attributed to a lack of available white females in higher education, thus reducing the likelihood of Asian male/white female pairings. Of course, the inverse could be true as well too.
"Grim and sexless Chow-Yun Phat (sic) types"??!! Obviously fella, you have never been to Asia, where Chow Yun-Fat continues to reign supreme among the female population here like you wouldn’t imagine. I haven’t met one Asian female – with the exception of a few white-brainwashed ones back in the States that never heard of him – who didn’t regard CYF as very phat.
Your cultural ignorance regarding CYF can perhaps be attributed to the fact that American audiences were basically unaware of CYF’s existence, i.e., until his 1998 breakout role in Replacement Killers.
In spite of the continued narrow – and extremely racially bigoted – American perceptions of CYF and other Asian male stars, the fact is that CYF has been an incredibly popular sex-symbol in Asia since the mid-1970s. Regarding the wildly different perceptions of him in the West versus the East, CYF is quoted as having said the following:
Nevertheless, Chow Yun-Fat is a poor example of a “sexless Asian male types,” in exactly the same way that George Clooney is a poor example of the “sexless white male” archetype. (George Clooney is not well-known in Asia.)
Of course your conclusion totally ignores the the hypotheses presented in the Gene Expression article you cited regarding the socioeconomics of interracial marriage.
The article’s conclusion was that higher levels of formal education and educational homogamy most oftenly existed between partners in interracial marriages, and were seen as more contributory factors in effecting the marriage, more so than any other factor.
Compare that with your crackpot theory of an Asian woman pursuing a “liberal” marriage that you suggest can only be offered by a white male, and a white male pursuing a “traditional” marriage that you suggest can most easily be offered by an unliberated Asian female.
What you have, as a result, is a pile of white-constructed classic “Suzy Wong” pop-culture-posing-as- social-theory rubbish and sophistic nonsense that has been perpetuated in the west since Puccini’s Madame Butterfly hit the stage in 1904. It really such theories are exemplars of classic racial bigotry, b/c it suggests that Asian women need to be ‘saved’ from the “male superiority” culture of their homeland where “Asian men expect/demand traditional women.”
This is not to say that most Asian men wouldn’t want to marry someone who is “traditional”. However, your conclusion belies that fact that this has been a characteristic bent of ALL heterosexual males – not just Asian – since time immemorial. The only difference, therefore, is in perception, which as you so deftly proved can be based on cultural ignorance, racial stereotyping, racial bigotry and general misunderstanding.
Regardless, your hypothesis fails to take into consideration the role that educational and socioeconomic commonalities have in facilitating interracial relationships, which the article hit upon quite well.
Also, your usage of the term “lower status race” suggests that you believe that there is a racial hierarchy. Perhaps there is one, albeit in your own mind. However, for the rest of us, especially those of us in Asia where whites are the de facto minority, that is just plain offensive, if not a perfect example of your own racial bigotedness.
All these convoluted explanations just seem like a copout to blame “cultural” factors rather than “racial”.
If black men were pursuing white women for the prestige and “forbidden fruit” aspect, why is the same not occuring with black women and white men? Why are black women NOT attracted to white men and vice versa? Why are the numbers of white women chasing black men so much higher than white men chasing black women?
I maintain that the original hypothesis of penis size is still the best explanation so far (along with the more important aspect of testosterone levels). Black males, having much higher testosterone than white males, are seen as more “manly” by women, a trait that is sexually desirable. However, that same hormonal tendency makes black women more masculine as well, lowering their desirability to men.