Discrepencies in interracial dating/marriage

Great Debates
21

Wow, cat fight. I stagger at your paranoia, by which you impute the worst possible motives to every statement.

–I must be obtuse. In what way does your phrasing imply more credit being given Asian Americans? I don’t see how my phrasing is substantially different from yours? The use of the word slightly? If, as a pure hypothetical, average Asian incomes were 10% higher than white incomes, latino incomes were 20% lower, and Amerind incomes were 50% lower than whites, would the use of the word ‘slightly’ ‘moderately,’ and ‘significantly’ be justified respectively? Please tell me what adjectives correspond to what percentages so that I may use adjectives without causing offense.

–You seem to be confused. That was a question, not a statement. Are you alleging that asking the question is somehow rascist? You make one speculative answer, then seem to indicate that the opposite is plausible as well. So, at least to me, you don’t seem to have an opinion or evidence on the matter. So, at least to me, given that you don’t seem to have a well-supported answer to the question, it can hardly be evidence of my racial animus in asking it, unless you also suffer from some kind of racial animus.

–True, I’ve never been to Asia. But as we are discussing interracial marriage and media images in the US, how Asians are depicted in the US media would seem to be the relevant question and how they are depicted in Asia fairly irrelevant. I claimed that Asians were depicted in US media in exactly the way Chow Yun-Fat’s quote says he’s been depicted in the US media. Thank you for providing that quote.

Since you want to make this personal and we are discussing interracial marriage in the US, have you ever been to the US? If so, how long have you lived here? By ‘back in the States’ and ‘those of us in Asia’ you seem to imply that you live in Asia. Therefore, with all due respect, you would not seem to be in a very good situation to know much about what’s going on in the US.

The webpage was a weblog reviewing a collection of articles, each contained within a light blue box. The blogger’s 6 points were his/her summary of the various articles. If you look in my post, you’ll see that I typed with my own two hands:
“The likelihood of interracial marriage increases as education increases”
therefore, you can hardly claim that I ignored the issue of assortative marriage–marriage between people of similar Socioeconomic status.
But that statement simply says that the more educated you are, the more likely you are to be in an interracial marriage. It doesn’t say anything about differential rates of out-marriage for men and women or what racial group people out-marrying into.
*** IF*** it were true that WM and/or AF were more educated than WF and/or AM, then the statement you claimed I ignored would have some relevance in explaining all this. However, I believe the facts of the case are that, at least for the last fifteen years of so, male and female education up through undergraduate level are roughly equal. If you would like to counter-quote some statistics at me, feel free.

de facto? as opposed to what, a de jure minority? What is this, Lebanon, that we have a difference between a de facto minority and something else?

rolls eyes Again, you seem to have such a chip on your shoulder that it’s obscuring your ability to read with any subtlety. If by ‘believe there is a racial hierarchy’ you mean: ‘believe there is race prejudice still existing in the US today’ then I do believe there is a racial hierarchy. If you mean I believe that race prejudice is valid, you’re entirely mistaken.

You really seem to be looking for opportunities to read things in the most offensive way possible. Why is that?

22

P.S.
On further examination, I see that kmg365 is based in Seoul, S. Korea.

Due to the selective abortion of female fetuses, S. Korea has (I believe) the most highly skewed sex ratio at birth in the world, with (roughly) 135 males born to every 100 females born. The natural ratio is 105:100.

If that’s not some evidence of gender bias, what is?

23

They may be convoluted, but they are so much better than your silly penis hypothesis.

Please explain why you mean by “cultural” versus “racial” factors.

24

I’ve never heard of such extensive gender-based abortions in South Korea. Where did you get that info?

25

I don’t see why penis based factors are “silly”. People often choose mates based on sexual reasons, and penis size is an important aspect to many people.

And by racial, I meant physical biological differences.

26

It’s silly because it’s a simplistic explanation for something that is very complex. It’s like something a stand-up comic would come up with to get cheap laughs.

It’s like me saying Jewish men are more attactive because they’re good with money.

The reason why we’re talking about culture is because it’s extremely important in a discussion of mating and romance. How we view the “physical biological differences” between races is often influenced by the culture around us. Culture can make us see differences that don’t even exist. Like penis size.

For instance, having pale skin used to be the height of beauty (ala Snow White). Nowadays, tanned skinned is considered “attractive”. This shift in attitude is due to changes in culture. Simply saying people are attacted to pale skin overlooks this point.

27

I don’t know but I have had quite a few black women (well at least 5) tell me they are pissed because all the “good” black men are taken. I’m assuming “good” means professional/career oriented. Always been afraid to ask.

There’s also nothing stopping black women from asking white men out on a date:D

28

I misremembered the magnitude of sex-selective abortion in S. Korea. 135 was too high.

Here’s on report, using data before the practice was made illegal I believe. Quotes a rate of 115:100
http://sociology.snu.ac.kr/isdpr/publication/journal/26-1/Tai-Hun%20Kim.pdf

Here’s a more recent report, that gives 110:100, after the practice has been made illegal.

http://www.nso.go.kr/cgi-bin/sws_888.cgi?ID=DT_1B8000A&IDTYPE=3&A_LANG=2&FPUB=4&SELITEM=

Before anyone claims this is a bunch of round-eyes bashing Korea, please note both these sources are Korean.

29

FYI, I 'm an American expat and Chicago-native currently working in Seoul. And I’m not going to dignify any of your baseless allegations and ignorant statements that you’ve made thus far unless you provide cites. Otherwise, it’s quite obvious that you are just making shit up as you go.

But for the rest of us, let it be known that gender-based selective abortions first require the use of ultrasound and a doctor’s analysis of an ultrasound image of a baby in utero in order to make such a gender determination.

In S. Korea, however, using ultrasound for the purposes of fetal gender identification is illegal as a result of a strictly enforced, long-standing governmental ban. (Doctors here can lose their medical licenses and fined if caught using ultrasound for the purposes of identifying the gender of a fetus in-utero.)

Therefore, as most doctors want to keep their licenses, it is very difficult for Korean women to perform gender-based selective abortions in this country, for lack of access to ultrasound. Of course they can go abroad and get an ultrasound, but that requires a lot of money.

And since most Korean women who can afford to go abroad for medical treatment in the U.S. for example, are generally affluent women who can also afford to have as many children as they want, it doesn’t make much sense for such women to abort a pregnancy just because the baby is identified as female, does it? Such abortions are also not popular in S. Korea, b/c this is a country where you can have as many children as you want.

As an aside, female infanticide, which historically has been been a practice in rural China, and is legacy of China’s “one-child” policy --is not an aspect of Korean culture or Korean family planning practices, either currently or in the past.

Only ignoramuses such as HayekHeyst confuse China with Korea in this regard. And any visitor to Korea will realize that there is no shortage of young women of all ages here, to the point where it seems like the streets, classrooms and office buildings in Seoul are teeming with young women like I’ve never seen before in the U.S. or in Europe.

A 135:100 male to female ratio in S. Korea? TOTAL BULLSHIT that you no doubt totally made up, as well as just another baseless and groundless theory pulled out of your ass. However, if you insist on making these assertions, prove it with credible cites.

How the hell do you know?

I daresay it’s b/c black female/white male pairings have always been more socially acceptable (to both blacks and whites) than BM/WF pairings, e.g., Sally Hennings, and other black mistresses taken by infuential founding fathers. Also, there is anecdotal evidence that black women were not castigated or lynched for being with white men, in the same way that black men were for being with white women.

Interesting hypothesis, albeit just another baseless racial generalization with with no cite. Also, I would argue that not all women find penis size to be a paramount issue, as not all women are built the same either. (There are both “smaller” women and “larger” women, in the same way that there are “smaller” men and “larger” men – of all shapes, colors and races.)

Also, testosterone levels, while certainly a factor, in and of themselves have little to do with the dynamics of attraction. If that were the case, why aren’t women attracted to testosterone-charged ex-cons, homeless men and the inmates at Stateville Penitentiary?

Of course this another baseless racial generalization that is so absurd that it doesn’t dignify a reply. Furthermore it is just plain ridiculous b/c it assumes that black women have higher testosterone levels than non-black women. Do you really want to go there? Please spare us this racial bullshit!

30

Ah, KMG365 is too dignified to respond to my setting him straight after he attempts to rip me for being a rascist. Splendid. He can dish it out, but can’t take it. He can start something, but not finish it.

You’ll also notice, KMG365, that my post correcting my earlier erroneous statement of 135 was placed ** BEFORE ** your post just now where you (fairly) disclaim the erroneous 135 figure. You’re deliberately and choosing to refute a position I’ve already voluntarily refuted. Refuting an argument the other guy isn’t making?
Welcome to Straw Man country, KMG365. You’ve just confirmed your tendencies towards intellectual dishonesty.

So, since you can’t dispute the 115 and 110 figures, I assume you’ll let them stand?
I’ll definately agree that the S. Korean government has attempted to suppress sex selective abortion. But given that the sex ratio is still 110 (rather than the normal 105), they only seem to have cut the rate of sex-selective abortion by about 50%. (There were 10 excess boys before, now there are 5.) The fact that the sex ratio is still imbalanced testifies to a stubborn cultural practice that cannot be easily eradicated by legislation, yes?

KMG365, how do you explain the 115 before legislation and the 110 after legislation? Are you going to make the rascist claim that the people of Korean are somehow physically different than all the other people of the earth, and that they attain this sex ratio without resorting to abortion?

I suppose it would be beneath your dignity to refute the 115 and 110 numbers. Because you can’t.

31

It is known that black males produce significantly more testosterone than white males (J. Natl. Cancer Inst. 1986; 76: 45). It is also known that testosterone is higher in black women compared to white women (J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab. 1996; 81: 1108).

32

I think you’ re missing the point. He might reign supreme in Asia, but not in Western cultures. In Western societies, where you have greater mingling of Asians and non-Asians, Asian men are typically reduced to sexless stereotypes in the media.

And that’s the problem. Asian men may be portrayed positively in their own countries, but not in the Western media. Hereabouts, they are typically depicted as computer geeks, martial artists or comic relief. Seldom are they portrayed as heartthrobs or romantic interests – and when they are (as with some Jackie Chan movies), this role typically takes a backseat to their karate or kung fu moves.

33

Hey HayekHeyst, what does Korea have anything to do with the OP and the previous discussions relating to interracial dating/marriage? (Why you derailed this thread God only knows.) If you wanna talk about Korea – which you know nothing about and have never visited – how about starting a new thread for petes’s sake – preferrably in the “Pit”?

You’re trying to make an issue out of a non-issue. Furthermore, nowhere in your cite does it state that Korea has the highest male-to-female ratio in the world, as you so falsely allege. You totally made that up!

34

Sweet holy Jesus, KMG365. See, JThunder was able to display his reading comprehension skills, seeing that I was ‘taking the Asian side’ in the issue of how Asian males are portrayed in Western media.

You call me a rascist, irrespective of the irony of doing so while you said

So, now, any Asian female who doesn’t find CYF ‘very phat’ is a brainwashed race traitor? Do you have a problem with the fact that some Asian women might date interracially?

I respond to you getting rascist while calling me a rascist, then it’s beneath your dignity to respond to my response. Then you throw up a straw man, and now you’re getting huffy with me for hijacking the thread?

I think when you attack someone (call them a rascist), you can damn well expect them to hijack the thread. What, you think I’m going to just let you get away with misinterpreting my remarks and labelling me a rascist? No way. I’m going to stick to your ass like glue, pointing out every possible way in which your own remarks could be construed in a rascist manner and every manifestation of your intellectual dishonesty. You choose to make this personal, KMG365, by playing the rascist card, so now it’s personal.

Unless, of course, you’d like to admit that your remarks were in some kind of heat of passion, and that they’re baseless.

KMG365, I’ve supplied some data and not engaged in baseless accusations. Perhaps Korea doesn’t have the highest male:female ratio in the world. If you can find a sex ratio at birth in some other country that bests 115 or 110, then I’ll gladly concede that S. Korea has a * lesser * problem with sex-selective abortion. That wouldn’t mean that S. Korea wouldn’t have a problem though. Just a lesser problem.

And I think sex-selective abortion and sex ratio at birth are not a hijack. It goes very directly to the issue of whether Asian culture is more male-oriented than other cultures, thus to the issue as to whether Asian women might choose to secede from that culture by marrying out rather than trying to change it from within.

35

Who, pray tell, is calling you a racist? (btw, it’s r-a-c-i-s-t.) Pipe down bro, take a chill pill, and relax. You are getting way too worked up for your own good. And drop the Korea/Asian flame. It’s unseemly and ugly.

OK – let’s examine some of the common stereotypes of Asian males perpetuated in Hollywood to make sure that such stereotypes are really “sexless” as you allege.

And FTR, I’m not denying that Hollywood readily perpetuates stereotypes. They certainly do. What I’m arguing against is your usage of the word “sexless” which is perfectly appropriate for describing amoebas and frogs, but is in my opinion, is inappropriate for describing the rest of the vertebrate world, including Asian males.

Typical Hollywood scenarios involving Asian males:
War movies: NVA, Vietcong, Imperial Japanese, North Korean, or Chinese People’s Army soldiers fight Americans. (It takes a rather large pair of cajones to rush a machinegun bunker against overwhelming odds, doesn’t it?)

Martial arts movies: Jet Li, Jackie Chan, Chow Yun-Fat – A paean to Estrogen Replacement Therapy, aren’t they?

Hongkong Action movies: Beat 'em up, shoot 'em up, blow 'em up. (Typical touchy feely chick-flick stuff.)

Contrary to your statement, it seems to me that Hollywood typecasts Asian men in stereotypical roles such as soldiers, martial artists, or villains. Is it unsexy to be typecasted in such away? Of course! Is it “sexless,” as you allege? No, I hardly think so. (The exception would be if the actor was portraying an amoeba.)

That may be true, but it’s all changing even as we speak, especially when you consider that there are more non-stereotypical Asian male actors in non-stereotypical Hollywood roles than ever before.

To wit, consider Chow Yun-Fat and Jackie Chan, who both made their first Hollywood breakthroughs in 1998 when Replacement Killers and Rush Hour came out. Since then, Asian-made movies, and Hollywood movies with Asian males and females in non-stereotypical roles, have become increasingly popular among mainstream American audiences, who are constantly clamoring for more.

Also, as a result of heightened interest and awareness of Asian actors and Asian movies – and not just the martial arts genre-- we’ll probably be seeing a wider range of scripts and roles for both Asian males – and females – appearing in Hollywood to accommodate growing American demand for such movies.

Also, come to think of it, stereotypes in national cinema cut both ways. In Korean-made films, western men are consistently depicted as either slapstick comedians, rapists or war criminals. The typical typecast westerner in a Korean production is the stereotypical sadistic raping-and-pillaging Korean-War-era G.I.

While such stereotypes are hardly recognizable among Americans, that is how westerners are overwhelmingly portrayed in traditional Korean movies.

36

**I have never seen an Asian male/black female couple.
**

Right here, dude. I’m Vietnamese-American, my wife’s Haitian-American.

As for why this is rare, I only have anecdotal information(well, I have on stat, but I can’t cite a link to it).

Men tend to be more willing to date outside their race than women. Women seem to be very specific as to what they want. I’ve seen some white women who will only date black men, some black women who will only date black men, and some Hispanic women who will only date men from their home countries, much less go outside their race! I have met very few men who wouldn’t be open to dating a woman of any race, although some have expressed worries about how their families would react if it go to serious.

Okay, here’s the stat, from memory. My local paper, the Sun Sentinel, did a survery and found that something like 35% of women would only date within their race. Only 18% of men held a similar view.

Now how does that translate to why white men would be less likely to date black women? Frankly, I think it’s the black women, specifically American black women. Most islanders are open to dating white and hispanics and Asians. African-American women have this very specific idea of what they think a man should be and part of that vision is that he be black. And many are quite militant about it, thinking that white women are “stealing” their men.

37

**If black men were pursuing white women for the prestige and “forbidden fruit” aspect, why is the same not occuring with black women and white men? Why are black women NOT attracted to white men and vice versa? Why are the numbers of white women chasing black men so much higher than white men chasing black women?

**

Part of it could be the fact that white male/black female was never really forbidden. It was forbidden to marry, but was accepted sexually, and there was never any question who the dominant partner was. Black females might consider it humiliating to be with a white man. And in most black female/white male relationships I’ve seen, the female was clearly dominant and made a point of making sure everyone knew it. In other cases, the female was alienating from African-American culture, had been called an “oreo” in the past. This was the case with my wife, who was teased in school for using proper English, participating in school. She was also called a “Dirty Haitian”, mostly by African-American students. Needless to say, although she has a lot of black friends, they are mostly Haitians.

I would also point out that I to, have no connection to traditional Vietnamese culture and don’t even know any other Vietnamese-Americans. I was adopted and raised by Jewish parents, even had a Bar Mitsvah, although I stopped believing quite a few years ago.

So me and my wife are essentially a cultural blank slate. We don’t really identify with any particular groups. So there really isn’t any way for us to date outside our cultures, since we never really identified with a “people” to begin with.

38

Headcoat, you might want to take what the guy in your link says with a pickup truck sized grain of salt. He seems to have a lot of non-mainstream ideas that look mainly, to be elaborate hypotheses that have not been tested in mainstream science.

ie

39

The hypotheses that are drawn may be sketchy or insubstantial, but the sentence I quoted was a straight up factual cite, complete with references. Though I admit, I can’t validate them because I don’t have access to the publications he quotes, I have little reason to believe they are fabricated.

40

Asian male here and maybe I can shed a little light. Im pretty open in regards to race. With the exception of White Females. I just assume that they arent interested most of the time. Hence Ive never asked a WF out before. With all other races, im more open and assertive in asking for dates. I just assume that most white women look for taller mates in general. And lets face it, asian males tend to be shorter. Obviously there are exceptions, my cousin stands 6’3" and I stand at 5’8". My father was 5’1" and my mother 4’11".
Interesting sidetrack btw. Ive noticed throughout my extended family (11 aunts, 11 uncles on my fathers side and 3 uncles, 2 aunts on my mothers side) that all the children of said aunts and uncles are much taller than their parents. Its not uncommon now for me to see some of my cousins up past me at 5’8". Ive asked my father and he’s been perplexed by this as well. In the old country he was considered to be pretty average height at 5’1. We came to a very unscientific and fairly obvious conclusion that it must be a result of the better nutrition/healthcare in the US.
Im hoping, nay praying, that in the next round of penis measurements, these new 2nd generation asian immigrants will push us up on the evolutionary size scale :slight_smile: