Discrepencies in interracial dating/marriage

Well, the prevalence of testosterone averages may have been substantiated (or, at least, supported), but the rest of your conjectures take huge leaps away from logic and evidence.

If (relatively) higher testosterone made black women “more masculine”–particularly to the point of interfering with white males’ perception of their beauty–there should be some evidence of that. To the contrary, I suspect that black women in North America are generally perceived to somewhat consistently have more feminine attributes such as more flared hips and more rounded bottoms. (Off the top of my head, I cannot recall any black woman I would characterize as “more masculine.”)

Similarly, with your seeking some definitive cause in penis size. If there is actually a difference, it is certainly too small to be of relevance. The closest figures I have seen to indicating actual measurements rather than folk tales, (Cecil mentions Kinsey’s study), indicated ony a 1/10 inch difference in erect length and a 1/10 inch difference in erect circumference. Given the huge variation among humans, that would tend to indicate that there are lots of blacks and whites who are on the “other side” of their supposed average. (Not to mention a 1/10 inch increase is generally easily sneezed at.)

Since most people meet, date, court, and marry in social environments and even the randiest teenager gives some minimal thought to issues beyond the genatalia when dating, I think the cultural arguments would carry a lot more weight than appeals to purported anatomical differences.

Reproduction is still very much a biological push though and physical differences are likely quite significant, tho most would say penis size isn’t all that important*. Females simply are genetically patterned to prefer larger men, hence the relative infrequency of the WF-AM and BF-WM pairings. This is true within a race and outside as well.

Back in college I remember a microfiched dissertation on statistics of interracial marriage and the W-A and B-W ratios were very very similar (something like 5-1 where the “larger” race was favored). IIRC the larger body size (not penis) was hypothesized as the reason.

  • or at all given the trait isn’t all that important for many women.

That might work for the white female/Asian male pairing. (It remains to be proved, to me). However, it makes no sense regarding the black female/white male pairings, given that on average (or in aggregate) black males are not significantly (or even noticeably) larger than white males in North America–and further that bm/wf pairings are hardly limited to the taller males.

Sorry, there were two thoughts in the last post that got mangled in editing and submitted by a cat on the keyboard.

Restated:
I can find no evidence of significant body size differences between blacks and whites in North America, particularly regarding height. Therefore there seems to be no physical reason for females (black or white) to prefer black males.

Further, there are strong indications of cultural resistance to black females pairing with white males as noted in the links I provided in this similar thread.

Sadly, that’s often the case. I’ve heard Asian men complain about how white women are almost never interested in them.

Some SDMBers have claimed that Asian men are every bit as popular as white and black men. Personally, I think that’s woefully naive. It’s as naive as saying that black women are just as popular as white and Asian women.

Maybe the black women and the Asian men need to get their grooves on together.

Great post.

Asians in more affluent areas are growing quite noticeably. Japan is a great example. Same in many areas of China. Amazing what good nutrition can do.

Various quotes from KMG365. I’ve bolded the relevant portions.

You also called me an ignoramus. Not an allegation of racism, but nonetheless, you started the flaming KMG365, not me. (Bold here is KMG365’s, not mine.)

[QUOTE]

Only ignoramuses such as HayekHeyst confuse China with Korea in this regard.

[QUOTE]

Given that I’ve cited data from the Korean Census and you’ve cited nothing from anywhere, it’s rather rich for you to call me an ignoramus. I’m not confused between Korea and China–both Korea and China have problems with ‘excessive’ males due to sex-selective abortions.

But that only strengthens the claim that son preference and higher value being placed on males are broad East Asian characteristics rather than specifically S. Korean characteristics.

You assert:

So, the devaluing of females that produces statistically significant sex-selective abortion in East Asian cultures and not in Western cultures is just a matter of Hollywood slandering East Asia?

Or, if you can find evidence of significant sex selective abortion for non-Asian cultures, you could argue that devaluing women is culturally universal, that it’s ‘a characteristic bent of ALL heterosexual males’. (I think I remember that India also has a problem in this regard, but that only proves that India also has a problem with devaluing females.)

At any rate, please provide evidence for your contention in the quote above, about the alleged ‘characteristic bent of ALL heterosexual males’–or I’ll have to regard it as an unsubstantiated assertation that sex-discrimination and male-dominance are ‘natural’–which I would have to regard as evidence of your sexism.

I do believe that Hollywood (broadly construed) doesn’t tend to portray non-whites in a full and equally complimentary range of roles.

But I think there are significant cultural factors within East Asian culture which try to promote ‘traditional values’ of men being more important than women and limit roles for women. To me, it’s not surprising that this makes Asian women more interested in marrying out and non-Asian women less interested in marrying in.

Look:
You can’t dispute the 115/110 sex-ratio figures for S. Korea. If you’d like to explain how that isn’t evidence of women being devalued relative to men, I’d like to hear it.

I’ve often heard this, but find it to be meaningless. In Western society, black, urban, hip-hop culture is overtly mysoginistic; it is aggressively and proudly asserting hostility towards women. Yet many white women will chase after this.

Also, I would like to point out that I am neither white or black. I am multiracial - Argentinian (with both white and mestizo genes) and Korean. My father in this instance was Asian. I myself date among all races, and I find black women to be very attractive. So I defy every generalization that I have made thus far in this thread, yet I can accept that it is an exception the rule. I would be blind not to see very obvious patterns in interracial dating.

Headcoat

Black culture is overtly mysoginistic? Wow. I’m black and thought I was intimately familiar with the African-American subculture, but this is news to me. Can we also conclude that white suburban culture is also satanic because a lot of the kids listen to heavy metal?

Why would black women chase after it?

And I’m going to have to ask you for a cite for the “many” qualifier. My experience has shown that black men who are married to white women aren’t “urban, hip-hop, or mysogynistic”. Actually, I haven’t come across too many black men in general who are mysogynistic…at least not any more than white men.

“Black culture” is neither hip hop, urban, or mysogynistic, btw.

I personally don’t agree that hip-hop is misogynistic per se, nor do I believe that blacks or African-American culture is any more misogynistic than any other culture or race. "

For what it’s worth, I believe “misogyny,” and all the other human foilbles that exist in society, are a human condition that is no more or less present in one race than another. No race or nationality has a corner market on being misogynistic as misogyny continues to be a universal aspect of human nature that transcends color and creed. The only difference among the cultures, nationalities and races of the world is how that misogyny is expressed.

This needs to be said, because someone in this thread, in an uninformed and a racially bigotted way, keeps on insisting that East Asian culture is markedly more discriminatory toward females and more misogynistic in its treatment of women than the West is b/c of an alleged existence of a cultural preference for male babies (which is a ridiculous racist, anachronistic and fallacious generalization to apply to a whole nation I might add). (Some families might prefer having a male baby, but to say that is typical of a whole race? That is going too far.)

However, in major U.S. cities like New York, Chicago, L.A., Dallas, Miami, etc., NO sane American woman would go walking off by herself into the night in a major downtown area or inner city neighborhood – i.e., if she had any sense about her own safety and personal security.

To wit, police blotters in the U.S. in large-, medium- and even small-sized urban areas in North America continue to be dotted on a daily basis with reports of rape and other forms of sexual assault against women so often, that we as Americans have almost become inured to it.

In fact, we who have lived in major urban centers in the U.S. practically expect that there will invariably be at least a couple of reported rapes per week in the inner city neighborhoods we live.

In Korea however, where I currently live, and even more so in Japan, it is so incredibly safe for young women to walk around in downtown areas and alley ways by themselves at all hours of the night, that the average westerner cannot comprehend it. And western women who visit here automatically take notice of this aspect as one of the biggest differences in street safety for women in East Asia versus the West.

And African and Middle Eastern cultures have their own forms of misogynystic practices such as female ritual circumcision, fundamentalist teachings that prohibit women from doing normal things, and forcing women to wear veils or burkhas.

So who’s to say what race or what nationality is more misogynistic than the other? Yes, in Asia, there tends to be overt male chauvinism and the sociopolitical status of women in NE Asia is perhaps 50 years behind their sisters in the West.

However, women in a city like Seoul should not fear getting raped or killed at night while walking home alone as women in Chicago do, b/c it almost never happens here, and if it does, it is usually perpetrated by white American G.I.s.

In the States though, white American serial murderers and serial rapists are part of America’s social fabric, such as the recently caught Greenriver Killer, Gary Leon Ridgeway who killed 50+ women; Ted Bundy; Richard Speck; Danny Rawlings, aka the “Gainesville Slasher”; Richard Ramirez; Ed Kemper, etc., etc. etc

Their crimes, and many others like them perpetrated by white American men, continue to be largely incomprehensible to Koreans and Japanese. That the rest of the world is shocked by such sheer brutality against women in the U.S. serves as perfect examples of how much latent and well- concealed misogyny continues to exist in the U.S., specifically among white American men.

So please don’t tell us that East Asian or African-American cultures are more misogynistic or more discriminatory toward women than white culture is. It really is beneath me to have to listen to such ignorant drivel. Such claims are also quite silly and smack of racism as well.

Please attack the statement(s) without referring to the word racism. Its as bad as calling someone an anti-semite for criticizing Israel or a homophobe for failing to embrace gay culture.

To western sensibilites, many aspects of east asian culture can seem to favor the male. A quick perusal of job statistics and promotion of female workers will support this.

As for my statement about " black, urban, hip-hop culture", I was referring to the phrase as a whole, and not all blacks culture in general. However, you can’t deny that hip-hop culture is an extremely large slice of black demographics in America. And perhaps the imagery that is most prominently projected towards white Americans. And will you really argue that hip-hop culture is not overtly sexist?

Hip-hop is diverse in its own right, so when you try to pigeon hole it into one type of attitude and then, on top of that, try to make it representative of an entire people’s culture–which is also diverse–then what you get is pure foolishness. Hip-hop (in its most popular form today) has been around for all of what? Ten years? Fifteen tops? How much of that is really misogynistic? How many black people listen to hip-hop and consider it “their” music"? (If this question stumps you, consider what country music/heavy metal means to a great many white folks and maybe you’ll see the light.) In other words, that “extremely large slice” of which you speak may not be so large afterall. How are you deriving that estimate? From a gut feeling and nothing else?

If we are basing culture purely in terms of music (which it seems you are), what about jazz, R&B soul, and gospel…genres of music also traditionally dominated by black people? Does misogyny characterize these, too?

Ah, KMG365, you’re even more fun that ** Sandino **.

Alleged existence? The statistics are there, KMG. There 115 (without criminalization of sex-selective abortion) or 110 (after criminalization of sex selective abortion) male babies per 100 female babies, as compared to the normal human average of 105:100. You can’t dispute those numbers.

You ** might ** be able to claim that people are aborting daughters for some reason other than a preference for sons. I’ve love to hear your theories on that, then hear some evidence to back it up.

Let’s see some statistics. I want to see the number of rapes in S. Korea and the percentage of them perpetrated by white American G.I.s

“Them big buck honkeys is afta our wimmenfolk”, eh?

Boy, not only is Whitey brain-washing your wimmenfolk, he’s also forcibly raping them too, eh? I’ll get your white bedsheet and your burning cross. Let me ask you again, directly, are you opposed to interracial marriage? If one of those big buck honkey GIs and a Korean girl fell in love (She must be ** white brain-washed**), would you oppose them being married? How would you feel if your daughter or sister (if they weren’t aborted) wanted to marry a white American. Or, Heaven Forfend, a black American?

I don’t doubt that US cities are more lawless than S. Korean or Japanese ones. But the majority of rapes, in the US at least, are not street-crimes. They’re acquaintance rapes. And acquaintance rapes are underreported, since often the victim has to see the rapists on a semi-regular basis.

You yourself admit male chauvinsim is greater and women’s sociopolitical status is lower East Asia. It would not be hard to believe at all that sexual assault (groping) of women in the workplace and/or acquaintance rape is therefore much more common in Asia. And given the greater male chauvinsim in many Asian countries (which you admit), it’s hard to imagine women are going to be very empower to report those assaults.

So I wouldn’t ring the victory bell on ‘less rape in Asia’ just yet. If you want to claim that, produce comparative crime statistics, including date-rape, sexual assault in the workplace, and estimated rates of underreporting.

There, the admission I’ve been looking for. Is it not hard to imagine that Asian-American women in the U.S. don’t like the prospect of marrying into that kind of culture?

As far as “who’s to say” I think we can answer that in several ways. The most obvious would be to ask women who’ve lived in both cultures and listen to what they say as to which culture is more misogynistic. Another would be to look at statistics of various types. Sex selective abortion, relative wages of female workers, whatever.

I’ve prevented one statistic that points to Asian culture being more male-centered than Western culture. You’ve presented zilch to show the opposite. Score: 1-0, advantage me.

So, there’s some sort of Law of Misogyny Conservation–that there’s some fixed sum of misogyny that every culture contains.

So, to you, feminism is ultimately pointless? Women are just destined to be under men’s thumbs, and they press for equality in the marriage or workplace, they should accept that it’ll come out in forcible rape on the streets?

Gosh. That’s not a misogynist attitude at all. Actually, it’s really a misandronist attitude. Men just have this irrepressible urge to oppress women.

Your worldview and your thinking processes (or lack thereof) as displaying in this thread seem entirely loathsome.

kmg365, surely things aren’t as good as you make it out to be. I don’t think “female-only” subway cars reflect a female-friendly society. That reflects a real big problem, IMO.

That’s an article about conditions in Japan, btw. I can’t speak for Japan having never lived there, but I certainly never said that Asia was crime free as you seem to insinuate. That there are jerks, bastards, fiends, criminals and gropers in Japan? Sure, why not? My point wasn’t that such people or crimes didn’t exist in Asia. My point was that “misogyny” is an equal-opportunity condition that afflicts every nation, color and creed on this earth, albeit in different forms based on the social norms of that culture.

So in Asia, you’ll find a patriarchical culture, that tends to be male chauvinistic, but on the other hand, anecodotal evidence indicates that the streets are much safer to walk at night in Korea – and Japan – for women than they are in the U.S. (This is hard to explain unless you’ve lived here.)

On the other hand, Korea has a lack of familiarity with what I consider as the ultimate form of misogyny and discrimination against females, which is the unlimitless supply of American psycopathic serial killers and sexual predators of the likes of Ted Bundy, Gary Ridgway, Ed Kemper, etc., that the U.S. is famous for producing. Fortunately, things like that just don’t happen here.

I denounce KMG365’s mention of white American serial killers! I will not listen to evidence!

I deny this

for serial killing by white Americans! His claim

All tongue in cheek, of course.

But, more seriously, note that KMG365 still seems to be claiming that there’s some Universal Law of Misogyny Conservation. Essentially, he seems to be saying that all cultures are equally misogynist. This implies that if Asian women gain equality in the family in the workplace, there will arise some other misogyny in Asian culture. So, American women, it seems that by getting more equal rights and status, you’ve caused stranger rapes and serial rapist-killers.

So, KMG365 would seem to imply:
Feminism causes rape, men can’t help but oppress women, and women’s oppression is an unavoidable part of our human destiny.

It’s the most unholy amalgam of sick male chauvinism and ultra-radical feminism I’ve ever seen.

All cultures are equally misogynistic? I’m going to have to ask for hard evidence for that claim.

Here’s a cite, not what I remember reading in college but the numbers seem the same (3-1 I guess based on census data, 5-1 for Asian-Black):
http://www.isteve.com/IsLoveColorblind.htm

A later synopsis by the same author:
http://www.vdare.com/sailer/interracial_marriage.htm

Not saying everything there makes sense but there’s a correlation drawn between relative muscularity of mates.