On the topic of engagement rings: I asked my wife-to-be if she wanted one. She said “how much do such things cost?” and I told her what I was thinking of (that is, the money I’d set aside for that purpose). She said “which would you rather do with that money - give a ring, or go on a really nice adventure trip together?”. So, no fancy ring. Instead, we spent some months in Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand. I never regretted that decision, and neither I think did she.
That was many years ago. I just gave my wife a ring to mark the 20th anniversary of going out together. Not terribly expensive, but nice and sparkly with diamonds - I figgured that they looked nice. I wasn’t originally going to get diamonds because they are said to be over-priced, but what the heck? They really do look nice and sparkly, and we’ll never (hopefully) be in a position where we have to sell it.
To my mind, a ring and gems are luxury consumption - pure and simple; we never got fancy jewelry before, because we prefer other luxuries. But I’m the last to condemn someone elses’ choices in these matters.
DeBeers definitely said “Is two months’ salary too much to spend for something that lasts forever?” but The Bridal Industry is now saying three months’ salary. :rolleyes:
Me: I agree–that’s absurd. How much of your earnings would you be willing to spend?
You: 5%? Maybe 10%?
Me: Remind me what your annual salary looks like?
You(stalling): Before or after taxes?
Me: Whichever.
You: 24K
Me: So 10% of 24K is 2.4K Sounds like a lot of money. 3 months rent. Probably not a lot of diamond, but who needs a big rock anyway?
You: You know, I’m not all that keen on DeBeer’s and the whole blood diamond thing, anyway. Any chance I could you’d settle for a less-pricey stone?
Me: Sure, I could be persuaded. Let me know when you have an alternative picked out.
[OK, I’m being a little flip. But on the other hand, if DeBeer’s says you should spend 2 months salary on the ring, and the Bridal Industry has bumped it to 3 months, this is exactly why you should have a conversation or two about what kind of money you are interested in spending on a ring before you spend it. And I’m really not sure that I’d “need” to know more than the ballpark that this imaginary conversation conveys. Well, I might want to talk about houses and cars and stay at home parenthood at some point, (heck, parenthood at all).
But if the love of your life is reading Bridal Industry Magazines, and is eyeballing rings worth 25% of your income, and you are (understandably) reluctant to spend that much on a RING, the time to suggest that you aren’t falling for the Bridal Industry’s Propaganda is BEFORE you bring her the ring.]
That’s pretty much where I’m coming from. Try this exercise, Dudley - tell your girlfriend that how much you paid for something is none of her business some day. It’ll be a laugh riot, guaranteed.
Are we maybe having an age difference disconnect here? I got engaged when I was 33, and had supported myself for 15 years already. Me not being fully in the loop for a major purchase decision with my SO was just not going to happen. Maybe a younger woman with who is less used to making all her own decisions would be more open to not participating in this decision.
My fiancee and I are both 33. We’ve each been married before.
I bought her engagement ring, and you know what, its cost has never come up. She understands that some things are not up for discussion, that is, without a decent reason… such as, “Dudley, what is this loan for $22,000 and why am I paying it?”
I’d think it a bit sad, and maybe speaking of control issues on the part of the bride. But I’d be interested in what your take would be on what was wrong with a husband who let his wife buy her own ring.
My husband and I obviously have a different dynamic, because we don’t have any financial things that aren’t up for discussion, and we would have a major problem if my husband took your attitude. If it’s working for you, good for you. Your mileage is varying from mine.
I think an engagement ring is a are very special gift for man to give a woman. The proposal and presentation of the ring is often the first action that officially declares that a man would like to spend the rest of his life with a woman and to have her raise his children. Her acceptance declares that yes, he is the man for her and she has set the course for the remainder of her life. This gift of promise and intention should not ever have its monetary value questioned nor should its ownership ever be in doubt. It is a gift from a man, the man should be responsible for ensuring that it is paid in full and 100% owned by the bride, otherwise it’s a gift from the bank and the groom just happened to be the middleman.
If by chance the man cannot afford the ring outright and feels compelled to get a loan for its purchase, then those payments should never be visited upon the gift’s recipient, the bride. To me, if the bride ends up paying a dime toward this gift, and the man allows it, then it was given to the bride disingenuously.
In my case, I didn’t buy my wife a “hunk of rock.” There was no diamond or seriously precious stone involved. My wife would kill me if I bought something that required insurance payments. She knows full well that I’m not going to spend my money on something that will require payments after the wedding or that will in any way hamper my ability, or our ability, to function financially. She knows that I’d never buy something that would wipe out my savings account.
I repeat again that I spent my money, not our joint money, and I made a sensible purchase, one that required no payments or special insurance, and that did not in any way hamper me from normal financial functioning. My wife does the same thing when she makes a significant expense to celebrate something for me. The cost never comes up. We have the same values. We have the same financial acumen. When we give gifts, we don’t go overboard, and we don’t mention the price.
However, when it’s our joint account, the cost most definitely does come up. All the time. We each need the other’s permission if the joint account is to be used for anything even resembling a significant purchase. But the ring? That’s my money. The birthday bash she throws for me? That’s her money. And we don’t go overboard with these gifts.
To me, this debate does not revolve around outdated paternalistic male attitudes. I can only repeat that nothing could be further from the truth, at least in my case. Purchasing a ring for my wife was not what I consider a major purchase decision, and it in no way affected my or our finances.
Well, of course, if there are worries or concerns, all financial things are ultimately available for discussion, if necessary. I’m not standing around saying “It’s financial. I choose not to discuss! And my word is law.” Cripes. But something like the ring? I don’t follow the moronic three months advice from the diamond hucksters and I don’t make idiotic purchases with my money, and I have to clear all decisions when it’s our joint money. My wife does exactly the same. I really can’t see any objection to this. For the record, the ring was the minor part of the proposal gift I gave my wife. I presented it to her in a hand-made, finely dovetailed box that I created out of curly maple and walnut. I even made the clasp myself. Whole thing took me a month. The ring? Yeah, there was a ring. It was a nice one, too, but, once again, well within my means.
I have a suspicion that at some point before you bought the ring, you and your wife did talk about money, and possibly jewelry, in enough depth that you(plural) knew you(pl.) were on the same page and that a ring worth a couple months salary was not desirable. Maybe not. Perhaps it just didn’t take the form of a formal “Discussion about the Engagement Ring”. But I’m betting that when you gave her a nice ring in a fancy box, you knew she’d appreciate the effort that went into the box.
Either way, I don’t think you are really as far off from my position as you think you are, but I’ve already invested more typing in this issue than I should have. So I probably won’t type much more on this topic.
I think the moment you agree to be married, it becomes kind of moot who pays for what. And when you get married, it becomes really moot - your and your partner’s past financial mistakes, your and your partner’s past financial successes - those become the foundation for what your future financial life holds - and you can repair the foundation if its a little broken.
If I really want to look at it, I’m paying for albums Brainiac4 bought in college today. He chose to buy that album - he could have saved that money and at this time it would be a joint resource to do something that was a shared priority - like sending the kids to college. Likewise, he’s paying for the trip to Europe I took at 18 - once again, I could have stayed home.
I’m not saying I should have or he shouldn’t have bought the album, but you take all your history and baggage into a marriage to make it what it is. The emotional stuff. The health stuff. The financial stuff. And that is what the marriage becomes. For a good marriage, you need to accept what is in the past, but fix past issues (be they emotional or financial) that aren’t acceptable to the health of the marriage.
Its really nice that someone wants to buy me a really expensive ring - but in a marriage - it isn’t really a free gift. WE are giving up something for me to have that ring on my finger, and I think I have a right to understand what we are giving up, and a right to help make that decision.
And if the decision is NOT to buy a really expensive ring, I have the right to help make that decision as well. Or if not MAKE the decision, I have the right to the awareness that that decision was made.
Let me diffuse your claim of sexism by pointing out that I am a man married to a woman, and that I agree with Dangerosa.
If, before we got married, while under the spectre of the fact the our finances were soon to be pooled, we had a discussion about a major purchase, and if we agreed the the price should be between X and (1.4)X, and if my fiancee then purchased for the price of 2X, then, yes I might be upset a little, and yes it would be my business.
However.
It seems also that the extent to which married couples share financial resources and how they manage such an unwieldy task varies greatly from couple to couple, and as many posters have said, this is their business and none others’. Thus, I do not mean to present my example as a rule, but just as another possibility.
Maybe there are couples in which one partner controls all the finances, and they are both happy with it. While this personally horrifies me, that is their business.
In another couple, maybe they agree the (female) fiance pays half the cost of the ring, and they are both happy with it. While that personally horrifies you, that is their business.
Maybe there are couples in which only the woman gives the man an engagement ring. I would personally love that.
Oh, and just because I really wanted to say this in the last thread about rings:
Engagement ring: $24 at Ten Thousand Villages in Raleigh
Wedding rings: $8 (each) from a street vendor in Greenwich Village
My wife: Priceless
