Discussing the engagement ring and $$

In My Humble Opinion
41

I am having a problem with the people (who seem to be guys) here saying that the price of the engagement ring is none of the woman’s business. It just smacks of that old, don’t bother your pretty little head about complicated stuff like money attitude. In my opinion, the engagement ring discussion is absolutely the decision of both members of the couple - the only people whose business it isn’t is everybody else.

Of course, I might have had a whole different opinion on this if we had been rich people with no debts and tons of disposable income. All I know is, money is and always has been tight for us, and I fully expect to be a contributor (if not the decision-maker*) on all our large purchases.

*I get to be the decision-maker because I’m more of a tightwad than my husband.

42

It’s a gift see, and as such it is the height of rudeness to be told the cost, to discuss the cost with others, or to judge it based on cost - like any gift.

People seem really comfortable judging the choices other people make. What ever happen to generosity of spirit?

As for discussing it with her, shouldn’t he know whether or not she’d want to be surprised or included, y’know, better than any of us?

Is it not just possible that he recognizes that, in the not to distant future, his every large expenditure will be a ‘we’ thing, and that this is his last opportunity to spend as a single man without compromise?

43

[QUOTE=featherlou]
I am having a problem with the people (who seem to be guys) here saying that the price of the engagement ring is none of the woman’s business. It just smacks of that old, don’t bother your pretty little head about complicated stuff like money attitude…
[/QUOTE]

You’ve got to be kidding. It’s anything but, at least in my case. Any guy with half a brain isn’t going to spend more money than is reasonable. I don’t discuss the price of the ring for the same reason she doesn’t tell me how much she spent on my 30th birthday bash. She’s not gonna go overboard, so I don’t have to know. I really don’t. Intelligent, mature, marriageable people make intelligent, mature financial decisions, even when affairs of the heart are concerned, and no one does anything ridiculous like blow the savings on a ring or a party. That’s all it is. It’s got nothing to do with old-fashioned male atttitudes toward a woman’s capacity to manage money. It seems to me we’re waaay beyond that. Of course, maybe that’s just me.

44

[QUOTE=elbows]
<snip>Is it not just possible that he recognizes that, in the not to distant future, his every large expenditure will be a ‘we’ thing, and that this is his last opportunity to spend as a single man without compromise?
[/QUOTE]

That could be the difference right there - as a couple living together already, it wouldn’t his last opportunity as a single man, because he really isn’t any more. Maybe if the couple weren’t living together yet and had separate finances, I could see the ring as being a gift from the man to the woman, with no involvement from her in it. I guess the couple involved would have to come to their own decisions about how much involvement both of them want. I suppose there are women in the world who would love to be surprised with a massive diamond ring; I’m just so far removed from that mindset that I have a hard time imagining it.

45

[QUOTE=Lunar Saltlick]
You’ve got to be kidding. It’s anything but, at least in my case. Any guy with half a brain isn’t going to spend more money than is reasonable. I don’t discuss the price of the ring for the same reason she doesn’t tell me how much she spent on my 30th birthday bash. She’s not gonna go overboard, so I don’t have to know.<snip>
[/QUOTE]

Not needing to know is not the same as it’s none of her business, which is the phrasing I took objection to. My husband does what he wants with our joint money; I don’t need to know about exactly what he buys, and I trust him to not be too frivolous with our money, but he doesn’t tell me that it’s none of my business how he spends our money (and vice versa).

46

My fiancée picked out a beautiful ring for me.

He considered my lifestyle and chose one that I could realistically wear everyday, I work with my hands so one of those “pokey” rings would be out of the question.

It was not at all what I had in mind, but I love it. I personally see it as a gift and have no desire to know the cost, and I would have been a bit disappointed if we did a mutual shopping trip for it.

IMHO the ring shows how much he thought it out. I know he spent hours in various store analyzing each ring until he found one he knew I would love and appreciate. His choice in a ring showed me how well he knows me.

47

Your interpretation and possibly not how he sees it.

48

[QUOTE=featherlou]
Not needing to know is not the same as it’s none of her business, which is the phrasing I took objection to. My husband does what he wants with our joint money; I don’t need to know about exactly what he buys, and I trust him to not be too frivolous with our money, but he doesn’t tell me that it’s none of my business how he spends our money (and vice versa).
[/QUOTE]

[Bolding mine] This is the source of my confusion. I absolutely do not do what I want with our joint money. I clear stuff like that with my wife, unless it’s a ridiculously small expenditure. However, when I buy a ring, it’s my money, not our joint money, and I make a prudent purchase, not one that’ll later have me saying, sorry, I can’t do this or that, I blew all my money and went into debt to buy you a ring.

49

[QUOTE=Malthus]
On the contrary, I think that they would serve the same purpose today, were the same situation to occur.

The value of small, highly concealable forms of wealth like gold and jewelry appears to be in direct proportion to the breakdown of society.
.
[/QUOTE]

But although Gold is Gold, Diamonds are near worthless in that situation. I mean really, when you are trying to bribe a border gaurd to let you out, will he really be set up to evaluate diamonds or even tell diamonds from CZ? Still in the east, families but high carat gold jewelry with that as a secondary purpose. They are just that- high carat gold, no diamonds, rarely any jewels.

50

[QUOTE=Lunar Saltlick]
[Bolding mine] This is the source of my confusion. I absolutely do not do what I want with our joint money. I clear stuff like that with my wife, unless it’s a ridiculously small expenditure. However, when I buy a ring, it’s my money, not our joint money, and I make a prudent purchase, not one that’ll later have me saying, sorry, I can’t do this or that, I blew all my money and went into debt to buy you a ring.
[/QUOTE]

That was my position, then some woman came in here telling me that she wouldn’t marry me!

:frowning:

51

[QUOTE=Lunar Saltlick]
[Bolding mine] This is the source of my confusion. I absolutely do not do what I want with our joint money. I clear stuff like that with my wife, unless it’s a ridiculously small expenditure. However, when I buy a ring, it’s my money, not our joint money, and I make a prudent purchase, not one that’ll later have me saying, sorry, I can’t do this or that, I blew all my money and went into debt to buy you a ring.
[/QUOTE]

A lot of this depends on the status of the couple and how they will handle money.

If we’ve agreed the “we should get married” and we’ve gone through the financial evaluations that are seldom done but prudent, and we agree that “we” will share finances - any significant change in those financial situations is worth knowing about.

i.e. We have the “we should get married” talk. We have a pretty good idea of where our finances sit. I have a little credit card debt, you have a student loan and a car payment. I have a little money in the bank, you have a little money in the bank. We know what our combined budget will look like. We know that when we get married, we will have a joint account and we will each get small allowances - not sufficient for major purposes but money you won’t be accountable to your spouse for. We agree that we want to buy a home (neither of us owns) and that saving for a home and furniture should be a very high priority. We also know that your car will need to be replaced in the next four years and that I’ve been delaying some uncovered dental work. We know we want to have kids in five years, and that we’d like one of us to be a SAHP.

Then we agree on a $5000-7000 ring.

You spend $10,000. What is getting delayed - my dental work, your car, the house, the kids? You’ve certainly made a major joint decision with money that isn’t technically “ours” but I’ve agreed will be “ours.”

Is that a big deal? - if you make $100,000 a year and have money in savings, maybe not - particularly not if I’m coming in broke - I don’t have a lot of room to complain. But if I’m coming in with the savings and the higher salary, and you are coming in already in debt - yeah, that could be a problem - maybe not, maybe I’m romantic and don’t care about a jewelry bill I’ll have to pay off.

52

[QUOTE=Dangerosa]
A lot of this depends on the status of the couple and how they will handle money.

If we’ve agreed the “we should get married” and we’ve gone through the financial evaluations that are seldom done but prudent, and we agree that “we” will share finances - any significant change in those financial situations is worth knowing about.

i.e. We have the “we should get married” talk. We have a pretty good idea of where our finances sit. I have a little credit card debt, you have a student loan and a car payment. I have a little money in the bank, you have a little money in the bank. We know what our combined budget will look like. We know that when we get married, we will have a joint account and we will each get small allowances - not sufficient for major purposes but money you won’t be accountable to your spouse for. We agree that we want to buy a home (neither of us owns) and that saving for a home and furniture should be a very high priority. We also know that your car will need to be replaced in the next four years and that I’ve been delaying some uncovered dental work. We know we want to have kids in five years, and that we’d like one of us to be a SAHP.

Then we agree on a $5000-7000 ring.

You spend $10,000. What is getting delayed - my dental work, your car, the house, the kids? You’ve certainly made a major joint decision with money that isn’t technically “ours” but I’ve agreed will be “ours.”

Is that a big deal? - if you make $100,000 a year and have money in savings, maybe not - particularly not if I’m coming in broke - I don’t have a lot of room to complain. But if I’m coming in with the savings and the higher salary, and you are coming in already in debt - yeah, that could be a problem - maybe not, maybe I’m romantic and don’t care about a jewelry bill I’ll have to pay off.
[/QUOTE]

Your basic assumption is that guys are dumb and need your assistance to make a sound financial decision. You’re a catch!

53

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
But although Gold is Gold, Diamonds are near worthless in that situation. I mean really, when you are trying to bribe a border gaurd to let you out, will he really be set up to evaluate diamonds or even tell diamonds from CZ? Still in the east, families but high carat gold jewelry with that as a secondary purpose. They are just that- high carat gold, no diamonds, rarely any jewels.
[/QUOTE]

That is a good point - the problem with diamonds is, as you point out, that their value is hard to assess without expert assistance. So bribing guards with diamonds is out.

On the other hand, while diamonds may be of little use in bribing guards and the like, they may be very useful in transporting large amounts of money from a messed-up situation to somewhere where order and civilization exist in a way that is hidden - it would be a trifle difficult to physically carry enough gold (say) to represent the value of one’s house, without being highly conspicuous when searched by said border guards. A bunch of diamonds can much more easily be hidden.

So a complete “self-rescue strategy” may be to have enough gold on hand to bribe your way out of trouble, and diamonds to set you up once you’ve escaped.

54

[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett]
Your basic assumption is that guys are dumb and need your assistance to make a sound financial decision. You’re a catch!
[/QUOTE]

I present,a link to a thread only 3 weeks old for your reading enjoyment, a young man who wondered if an 18K Tiffany ring that his girlfriend admired in passing was a good idea. He assured us that he will soon be making big bucks.

We said “No! Hell, NO” Men said “She’s a gold-digger, run, run, run” Women said “What about opportunity cost?” and “Diamonds are a sucky investment and You (meaning the man buying the ring) won’t ever have a chance to reap any investment value anyway”

OP came back and said “We talked, she just used that ring as a example. We’ll go ring shopping and look for a much cheaper ring together”

We said “Good!”

(All things in quotes in this post are paraphrased, not direct quotes).

Dangerosa may be paranoid and controlling–although I wouldn’t label her that way, (same goes for featherlou) but it is NOT stupid to suggest that not all men are savvy about the value of money or the value of jewelry. Neither are all women. We live in a consumer economy.

55

[QUOTE=Eureka]
I present,a link to a thread only 3 weeks old for your reading enjoyment, a young man who wondered if an 18K Tiffany ring that his girlfriend admired in passing was a good idea. He assured us that he will soon be making big bucks.

We said “No! Hell, NO” Men said “She’s a gold-digger, run, run, run” Women said “What about opportunity cost?” and “Diamonds are a sucky investment and You (meaning the man buying the ring) won’t ever have a chance to reap any investment value anyway”

OP came back and said “We talked, she just used that ring as a example. We’ll go ring shopping and look for a much cheaper ring together”

We said “Good!”

(All things in quotes in this post are paraphrased, not direct quotes).

Dangerosa may be paranoid and controlling–although I wouldn’t label her that way, (same goes for featherlou) but it is NOT stupid to suggest that not all men are savvy about the value of money or the value of jewelry. Neither are all women. We live in a consumer economy.
[/QUOTE]

But shouldn’t you know the guy is financially inept before he proposes?

And if you knew he was, why would you still be with him if your intention was to eventually get married?

56

[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett]
But shouldn’t you know the guy is financially inept before he proposes?

And if you knew he was, why would you still be with him if your intention was to eventually get married?
[/QUOTE]

Should you? Sure. Would you? Maybe.

But I’m not sure that this discussion from the female point of view is about assuming that the guy is financially inept.

Mostly, we, or at least I, object to two things.

  1. The idea of having a discussion about the appropriate amount of money to spend on a ring and then UPPING that amount by a substantial margin.

No discussion–no problem. Discussion and then spending more lavishly–problem.

And 2. The idea that if some guy someday offers me a engagement ring it is NONE OF MY BUSINESS how much he spent on it.

Nope, sorry don’t buy it, and if you want someone who will–look elsewhere. I don’t neccessarily have to know how much it costs down to the penny, but I darn sure feel entitled to know whether this hunk of rock requires insurance payments, will have to be paid off after the wedding, or just wiped out his savings account.

I probably would be willing to trust a guy to buy me an appropriate–and therefore not lavish ring. I’m not obsessed with size or shape or clarity. But I demand a relationship where we communicate about money and I want one where we value the same things.

57

[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett]
But shouldn’t you know the guy is financially inept before he proposes?

And if you knew he was, why would you still be with him if your intention was to eventually get married?
[/QUOTE]

There’s a difference between financially inept and having somewhat different philosophies about finances – there’s still a range within “financially competent.” That’s why Mr. Del and I talk through any major purchase, we have slightly different financial priorities and when we communicate them we both end up feeling better and more secure about spending.

Another thought occurred to me after I first posted. When we were talking about rings, we were already living together and had co-mingled finances, and at the same time we were talking about making a down payment on a house. If ring price went up, down payment was going to go down. We weren’t talking in theory, we were looking at literal columns of numbers representing OUR MONEY. So for me, participating in the conversation and coming to an agreement that would be accurate was very important. I might have had a lot less interest in the price if I were in a different situation.

I think Dangerosa was a great catch for someone who shares her view of finances within a relationship. From what I can tell, that’s all she was trying to communicate in her comment to you – that it’s important for many people to be well-matched in terms of approach to financial decisions. I’m sure you would also be/have already been a great catch for someone who shares your view of finances.

58

[QUOTE=Eureka]
Should you? Sure. Would you? Maybe.

But I’m not sure that this discussion from the female point of view is about assuming that the guy is financially inept.

Mostly, we, or at least I, object to two things.

  1. The idea of having a discussion about the appropriate amount of money to spend on a ring and then UPPING that amount by a substantial margin.

No discussion–no problem. Discussion and then spending more lavishly–problem.

And 2. The idea that if some guy someday offers me a engagement ring it is NONE OF MY BUSINESS how much he spent on it.

Nope, sorry don’t buy it, and if you want someone who will–look elsewhere. I don’t neccessarily have to know how much it costs down to the penny, but I darn sure feel entitled to know whether this hunk of rock requires insurance payments, will have to be paid off after the wedding, or just wiped out his savings account.

I probably would be willing to trust a guy to buy me an appropriate–and therefore not lavish ring. I’m not obsessed with size or shape or clarity. But I demand a relationship where we communicate about money and I want one where we value the same things.
[/QUOTE]

Well, I guess, I’m going on the basic premise that if I buy my future wife a ring, there are no payments and any insurance is taken care of by me.

I think having payments on a piece of jewelry that is for someone else (whether it’s the inital contract of marriage (an engagement ring) or simply a gift) is a little foolish, financially, and further, the potential that the recpient of the token would actually have to make those payments is just fucking crazy.

A wife paying for her own engagement ring (or anything that goes with it), is the sign of a really, really bad husband.

59

Actually, I married a guy who was financially inept. Married two of them, the first one didn’t work out, the second one posts here as Brainiac4. But I understood where his finances were when we married, and we understood that we were going to have to get on the same page regarding financial priorities. There have been a few “moments” buts its usually good. And we’ve been extraordinarily lucky - to live within our means, but to have ample means to live within - its much easier that way.

My big concern however comes from watching my brother in law, who married someone financially inept that he didn’t understand was financially inept. He didn’t ask enough questions before the marriage, and he didn’t get very honest answers to the questions he did ask. So he lost hundreds of thousands of dollars over about six years and left the marriage bankrupt, with nothing.

60

[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone]
Isn’t there some old standard like “an engagement ring should be 4 months salary” or some such convention from the days of yore?
[/QUOTE]

**One ** month’s salary!