Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit

[Babale]

@iiandyiiii

So the IDF admits killing the medics, and says it was an accident. They won’t release footage they have, of course. And it’s no big deal they buried them in a mass grave - that’s an accepted practice, to keep them from being eaten by wild dogs. They refused to explain why they buried the ambulances, though - maybe to keep them from being eaten by wild t-rex’s?

Go ahead and take your best shot at justifying this one, @Babale.

Since the IDF isn’t “justifying” this one, I’m not sure why you expect me to? It seems like a very serious fuckup and there’s an investigation that’s supposed to be delivered to the army’s chief of staff in the next day or so.

@MrDibble

Like I’ve said before when genocide defenders go “but where are the death camps?”, we’re clearly still at the Einsatzgruppen stage of this particular Solution. Instead of an Intelligenzaktion, you have a Sanitäteraktion.

Aren’t you the braindead fuck who last year claimed thousands would have died of starvation by now? When your hysterical bullshit claims about what Israel will do fail to materialize again and again and again, are you every planning to reassess your position, or are you too ideologically captured with your “Jew=White=Oppressor=Bad, Palestinian=Brown=Oppressed=Good” bullshit?

Your understanding of the situation is clearly orders of magnitude off from reality, given your absolutely ridiculous starvation claims, yet here you are, authoritatively spewing bullshit like the world’s ugliest fountain.

[iiandyiiii]

@Babale

Since the IDF isn’t “justifying” this one, I’m not sure why you expect me to? It seems like a very serious fuckup and there’s an investigation that’s supposed to be delivered to the army’s chief of staff in the next day or so.

According to the article, the IDF has said the following:

"The Israeli military originally claimed an investigation found the vehicles did not have any headlights or emergency signals and were therefore targeted as they looked “suspicious”.

But video footage obtained by the PRCS, and verified by Sky News, showed the ambulances and a fire vehicle clearly marked with flashing red lights."

ISTM that the IDF knowingly lied the first time.

"An IDF surveillance aircraft was watching the movement of the ambulances and notified troops on the ground. The IDF said it will not be releasing that footage.

When the ambulances arrived, the soldiers opened fire, thinking the medics were a threat, according to the IDF.

The soldiers were surprised by the convoy stopping on the road and several people getting out quickly and running, the IDF claimed, adding the soldiers were unaware the suspects were in fact unarmed medics."

Considering they already lied, and aren’t releasing the footage, I’m extremely skeptical they’re being truthful here.

"Addressing the fact the aid workers’ bodies were buried in a mass grave, the IDF said in its briefing this is an approved and regular practice to prevent wild dogs and other animals from eating the corpses.

The IDF could not explain why the ambulances were also buried.

The IDF said six of the 15 people killed were linked to Hamas, but revealed no detail to support the claim."

This burial shit is an obvious lie, considering the ambulances.

Here’s what I think – either this is the kind of fuckup that happens all the time, but the IDF is usually able to successfully cover up, or (as I’ve long suspected) there are very significant elements of the IDF that are genocidal mass murderers, and the IDF leadership has covered it up because (at best) they have no idea what to do about it. Because what are the chances that this is the only big fuckup that the IDF lied about, rather than it’s just the one that clear evidence for has been publicized (i.e. the IDF failed to cover it up)?

If this is all fine to you, or if you somehow think the IDF isn’t obviously lying and it was just a one-off screwup, then I think you need to do some serious soul-searching, because something is broken inside you.

[Babale]

@iiandyiiii

If this is all fine to you, or if you somehow think the IDF isn’t obviously lying and it was just a one-off screwup, then I think you need to do some serious soul-searching, because something is broken inside you.

Are you OK dude? First you pull that shit in the other thread, claiming that Nick Fuentes is representative of what your average right wingers believes before slinking off when I challenged that claim; and now you’re here, responding to my post where I said it looks like a very serious fucking and I’m glad that it’s being investigated by telling me that if I’m fine with it there’s something very wrong with me.

You used to be an extremely good faith poster; not sure what this nonsense is about.

[iiandyiiii]

I wonder why you ignored the substance of the post (the obvious lies of the IDF). Is it because you’re afraid of actually engaging on this? Can you admit that the IDF very clearly lied here?

If you can’t, or if you’re okay with it, then yes, I think something is clearly broken inside you.

[iiandyiiii]

@Babale

Aren’t you the braindead fuck who last year claimed thousands would have died of starvation by now? When your hysterical bullshit claims about what Israel will do fail to materialize again and again and again, are you every planning to reassess your position, or are you too ideologically captured with your “Jew=White=Oppressor=Bad, Palestinian=Brown=Oppressed=Good” bullshit?

Your understanding of the situation is clearly orders of magnitude off from reality, given your absolutely ridiculous starvation claims, yet here you are, authoritatively spewing bullshit like the world’s ugliest fountain.

ISTM that, when the IDF lies about killing unarmed medics and mass graves, it’s more reasonable to be concerned that there might be a genocide or ethnic cleansing in progress than to insist on something akin to 100% provable certainty before using that language.

[Babale]

@iiandyiiii

I wonder why you ignored the substance of the post (the obvious lies of the IDF). Is it because you’re afraid of actually engaging on this? Can you admit that the IDF very clearly lied here?

You are aware that the IDF is a big organization, not just one dude named Joe IDF?

The situation itself, as I already said, is obviously a monumental fuckup.

The investigation into that fuckup is ongoing, and has been since the incident occurred. It doesn’t have anything to do with the media shitstorm that’s been kicked up about it. Note that in those statements the IDF made that you quoted, they also said that the investigation was ongoing.

I don’t know who decided to release a statement on such an incredibly sensitive situation to the international press before the investigation was completed. That is, in and of itself, regardless of whether the statement ended up being right or not, a monumental fuckup, and I hope that there are consequences on that front as well.

I don’t know if that person was working from incomplete information or if they knew they were lying at the time. That person should face serious consequences either way.

Just because I don’t cream my pants screeching GENOCIDE like Der Trihs and MrDribble doesn’t mean I think this is acceptable.

[iiandyiiii]

Has the IDF corrected the obvious lies/misstatements already? If not, why should I or anyone else have any confidence that an internal IDF investigation will reveal the truth?

[Babale]

I really don’t give a shit what you have confidence in, at this point. You apparently have confidence that Nick Fuentes is a mainstream figure on the right, so we clearly live in completely different realities.

I guess we can just wait and see. When all of Dribble’s claims turn out as accurate as his “thousands will starve” claim, you might see sense; or you might not.

[iiandyiiii]

This “blame the messenger” stuff really makes it easy to ignore uncomfortable facts. The IDF lied about killing unarmed medics and mass graves, and AFAICT hasn’t yet corrected these lies.

Probably easier to ignore this than to consider what it might mean.

[Babale]

@iiandyiiii

Probably easier to ignore this than to consider what it might mean.

Wow. You’re so disconnected from reality that you’re ignoring what I wrote in the post you’re responding to.

[Czarcasm]

@Babale

Just because I don’t cream my pants screeching GENOCIDE like Der Trihs and MrDribble doesn’t mean I think this is acceptable.

“Acceptable” or “not acceptable” are not the first words that come to mind when talking about this horrible situation.

Or, at least, they wouldn’t be my first words. Or second words. or 997th words.

[iiandyiiii]

So they didn’t lie? Or they corrected the obvious lies? What did I miss?

[Babale]

@iiandyiiii

What did I miss?

That I’m ignoring it or don’t have a problem with it.

[Czarcasm]

That part nobody is missing.

[iiandyiiii]

So what do you think we should read into the fact that the IDF lied about this and hasn’t corrected it yet? Are they just too busy? Seems like it wouldn’t be hard to correct these obvious lies (i.e. “we don’t yet have an explanation for the mass graves but it goes against our values and we’re investigating it and will make the findings fully releasable along with all footage we have related to the incident”).

[Babale]

@iiandyiiii

So what do you think we should read into the fact that the IDF lied about this and hasn’t corrected it yet? Are they just too busy?

That would depend on who made the decision to release these statements to the press, and whether they were working with incomplete information or were being dishonest. Hence why I’m happy that there is an ongoing investigation of this matter that’s being handled by the Chief of Staff himself; that seems to me like the highest level of seriousness with which an army can treat a matter like this.

@iiandyiiii

Seems like it wouldn’t be hard to correct these obvious lies (i.e. “we don’t yet have an explanation for the mass graves but it goes against our values and we’re investigating it and will make the findings fully releasable along with all footage we have related to the incident”).

Because they’re investigating this matter and it may very well end up being a criminal investigation? No army would ever release “all the footage we have related to the incident” and as former Navy you damn well know that. As you were probably very capable of explaining in the various UFO threads where random footage of camera glitches was declassified, any footage recorded by military equipment is incredibly sensitive because it gives your rivals immense amounts of intelligence about your capabilities, even if you’re just recording a balloon floating over the ocean. No army in the world would just dump raw footage of an incident for enemies to pour over.

Video of the incident modified to remove that sort of sensitive information is the kind of thing an army would release - after an investigation.

For example, the Israeli articles on this are reporting that the army is using aerial footage of the incident in their investigation. Clips from that will probably be released as part of their findings, but that footage isn’t going to make available in full, for reasons you very well understand would apply to any army on Earth.

[Czarcasm]

@Babale

Hence why I’m happy that there is an ongoing investigation of this matter that’s being handled by the Chief of Staff himself; that seems to me like the highest level of seriousness with which an army can treat a matter like this.

How is his record when it comes to investigations of this sort, involving possible malfeasance by IMF troops?

[iiandyiiii]

This sounds like rationalizing bullshit to me. At the very least they could have corrected their lies, and they haven’t. ISTM that you’re inclined to read every fact in the best light possible for the IDF. ISTM that lies about killing unarmed medics and mass graves ought to lead to perhaps the slightest suspicion that maybe there’s at least a 1% chance that we could be at least in the early stages of ethnic cleansing or genocide.

YMMV, but IMO, after lies about killing unarmed medics and mass graves, better to be worried about a genocide that doesn’t happen than to dismiss those concerns when they might be right.

[MrDibble]

@Babale

Aren’t you the braindead fuck who last year claimed thousands would have died of starvation by now?

Thousands have died of starvation., you fascist pig.

[iiandyiiii]

This link is broken for me.

EDIT: Thanks!