And yet when Israel tries to protect its citizens from those attackers, bleeding-hearts on the other side of the world who’ve had the luxury of growing up in a world where wars are things that happen to other people complain and hold them to a standard that no other nation under attack by its neighbor would be expected to abide by.
Yup. Like I said months ago:
But, of course, that would have resulted in Netanyahu being kicked out of office far faster.
Oh yeah, I’m sure my grandparents and uncles would really have enjoyed the rise of Arab Nationalism in Morocco had they not been able to flee to Israel. Or I’m sure the Americans would have let them in, right alongside the Yemeni Jews and the Beta Israel Ethiopian Jews.
It’s not as if the Holocaust is the only mass slaughter of Jews in history…
It’s certainly a safer place to be Jewish than any other country Mizrachi Jews come from.
How’s not having a country going for the Kurds? The Uyghurs? The Rohingya? They’re all doing just fine and dandy because the US is such a great friend to downtrodden minorities, right? …right?
Not to mention the Palestinians
I am aware of that. A prior one is why I grew up in the US and not the USSR.
If Israel was, in fact, a safe haven for your family, bravo. It’s not the only place that Jews can be safe, even if those other havens have barriers to entry. The world isn’t perfect, that isn’t news.
Yes, life sucks for them. On the other hand, being Jewish in the US is far from the worst thing ever, and about 90% of the Hmong were mostly re-settled in Wisconsin, Minnesota, and California, with some smaller communities in other states.
Is the US perfect? No. And neither is Israel. Right now I have no desire to go there.
Upon reflection, there is another reason I don’t view Israel as a “safe haven”.
Because my mother was a convert there have always been a certain number of Jews who either questioned my Jewishness, or who flat out stated I was not a Jew. So I do not and never have felt entirely welcome in the “Jewish community”. The synagogue I go to has been extremely welcoming, as have most other Jews, but I have also had some very uncomfortable situations as well. Because of the latter I am not at all convinced that I would be any more welcome in Israel as anywhere else.
For now. There’s a not-insignificant faction in US politics that believes the Jews are plotting to destroy capitalism and exterminate the white race, and there’s a real chance they could wind up running the country before too long.
There’s also a risk that Israel could be bombed into the stone age, with or without radiation sprinkles.
The racists wanting to kill off the Jews also want to kill off every other insufficiently White citizen as well.
Yes, I’m well aware of them. And that they will consider me Jewish even if Israelis do not. In which case I’m really screwed if the anti-Semites want me dead and I’m deemed insufficiently Jewish to emigrate to Israel, which will be the case if certain bigots in the current Israeli administration get their way.
The world is not safe. There are no guaranteed safe havens.
If the US goes down the bigotry shitter then perhaps Israel will look better, but honestly, if the US goes down that route pretty sure Israel won’t be long for the world, either.
And of course as we know a change in the ideology of US leaders has no effect on the stability of any other countries around the world.
I guess they learned the wrong lesson from our reaction to 9/11.
For most of my mom’s side, it was not, thanks to the British capping Jewish migration. Which is why, aside from the handful of Kibbutzniks who were already in Israel, and the one who got in illegally, they all died in Poland. The US certainly wasn’t taking them in, either.
For the tiny handful of Jews the Americans decided to allow in, that’s true. For the rest, knowing about how great American Jews have it is pretty cold comfort when you’re in a concentration camp, or a gulag, or being murdered by cossacks.
Even if the Chief Rabbinate makes you jump through some hoops once you’re in, Israel is basically going to recognize you as Jewish if you are being persecuted as Jewish. See: the Beta Israel community, and other obscure and isolated communities of Jewish people around the world.
Right. That’s why we have an army.
Anyways, you are neglecting a very important point, which is that unlike Jews fleeing from place to place, as we have been for 2,000 years, Jews who go to Israel weren’t refugees. They weren’t fleeing into someone else’s land with the hopes that they’d get to stay for at least a couple generations before the antisemitism is bad enough that they have to flee again; they were - finally - building something of their own, and banding together to prevent anyone from taking it away from them.
That’s not necessarily something that could only be done in Israel. In the very early 1900s, Zionism had a major competitor, that argued for Jewish mutual protection and self determination within the borders of other nation-states - Bundism.
For a while, Bundism accomplished some wonderful things. In Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus, Bundists and Zionists teamed up to form defensive groups to try and stop Cossack raids and pogroms. The Bundists apparently thought that they could keep this up in perpetuity; the Zionists knew that they were just buying time.
Unfortunately, the flaws with self determination within someone else’s country manifested very quickly. The General Jewish Labor Bund was founded in the Russian empire, and in 1917 it was coopted into the Russian communist party. I’m sure you can imagine what happened to those Russian Bundists who didn’t think that was a good idea.
Meanwhile, the Bund in Poland split off to try and continue prioritizing Jewish self determination, but… Well… You know what happened in Poland.
In what sense? If America fucks off and an ascendant China or Russia decides they want a new Middle Eastern colony, then sure, all bets are off. But if you just mean that without America there, the neighboring Arab countries would conquer us? I don’t buy that. They tried their hardest quite a few times before the US finally decided we were worth allying, and we didn’t have half the industrial base that we currently do at the time.
I have no doubt that Israel can defend itself from its Arab neighbors.
I do not think it could do the same against Russia or China, especially if those two joined forces. Right now, Russia is buddy-buddy with Iran, that’s not good for anyone Iran doesn’t like.
Sounds like the same problem for people going to either the US or the British mandate. Only a limited number got in.
Sure, I know about what happened in Russia and Eastern Europe, that’s where my dad’s family is from after all. I know what happened in Poland because those of dad’s family that couldn’t come to the US went to Warsaw. For the first half the 20th Century there were more Jews seeking safety than there were safe spots open to them.
Yes, I sure it was for my relatives who either couldn’t make the trip, chose not to make the trip, or waited too long to make the trip.
At this point in time, yes. Nevermind that I shouldn’t have to “jump through hoops” if I’m the child of a Jewish mother. American Ashkenazi is not an obscure or isolated community.
Here is a link to an article from the Times of Israel about this very subject. A relevant quote:
“This is the first time that a mikveh, a place of purity, has become a place of exclusion,” said Yesh Atid MK Aliza Lavie on Monday. The lawmaker said the legislation sends a message to Diaspora Jewry that the State of Israel doesn’t “count you in. Not at the Western Wall, or in marriage, or in conversions, at the mikvehs too — you have no place in the State of Israel.”
Smotrich would not recognize me as a Jew and does not want me in his precious Israel. If you’re not his brand of Orthodox you’re dirt and don’t deserve Israel. This isn’t some nobody squatting in the West Bank, this is part of the current Israeli administration.
Here’s another one about Ben Gvir’s position on the matter, along with relevant quote:
In a statement, Ben Gvir’s Otzma Yehudit party said he was demanding a law that would overturn this ruling, establishing that “only a Jew who converted in accordance with Jewish law (halacha) would be eligible [for citizenship] under the Law of Return.”
Such a law would likely revoke recognition of conversions performed by Conservative rabbis as well, though they are conducted in accordance with Jewish law. Ben Gvir’s office did not immediately clarify the matter.
Again - not a nobody in a backwater spouting off but someone who is quite powerful in the Israeli government. These guys are the Israeli equivalent of American’s MAGA, with the difference that at this moment they’re running the show.
Maybe you haven’t had your Jewishness questioned. I have. All my life. Smotrich and Ben Gvir want to slam the door against millions of Jews, they want to bar us from that “safe haven” you keep talking about. As long as they’re in charge I have no confidence that Israel will be there for me if and when I might need it. You keep talking about how the US is good for Jews now but might turn on us in a few years, or a few months, or even a few weeks. That is true. You refuse to see that Israel being a safe haven for ALL Jews might also turn in a few years, or a few months. Your promises of safe haven ring hollow when I might, like those of our ancestors killed in pogroms or the Holocaust, be trapped outside, looking in at safety that I can never have, in terror until the end comes.
Israel might be a safe haven for YOU. For me, that has never been more uncertain than now.
I found this interesting description of precisely Ratfucker’s behavior in this thread.
Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.
It kind of applies to Crane, too.
You’ll note that when finally called out, they slink away, but I’m sure they’ll be back with some totally not antisemitic humor (for Ratfuck) or insane ramblings any moment.
Want to read some quotes by him about secular people? He doesn’t consider secular Israelis to be real Jews either, and thinks they’re destroying the country.
(Those are probably not something you’re familiar with, because that’s not a narrative that has any bearing on the West, so I highly doubt any source you read has gone into it. I’d love to be pleasantly surprised, though.)
However, both Ben Give and Smotrich are only in Parliament because it was politically expedient for Netanyahu to get them jammed in to keep himself out of jail. According to every poll I’ve seen since Oct 7, neither of their parties will win the minimum number of votes to get even one Minister.
I wish we could say the same about the “They’re Eating Cats And Dogs, and Jews Will Not Replace Us” party in the States…
Oh that’s supposed to be me? I didn’t slink away, you didn’t, as usual, like the answer to another ‘when did you start hating Jews?’ question.
If you, Mr. Everything I don’t like is Blood Libel, want to accuse me of being an anti-Semite you better bring some actual fucking clear evidence otherwise it’s you that’s committing the libel.
Oh, you’re back? So please, go ahead and answer the question.
Is Israel controlling the world’s media through false accusations of antisemitism, which is the reason that Americans use the neutral term “Settlements” rather than a derogatory term?
That’s not a “when did you start hating Jews” question unless you do genuinely think that “Israel” is controlling the world’s media.
You literally “joked” about Israel harvesting dead Palestinians as “resources”, you moronic rat fucker. You’re not exactly being subtle here.
No, as you acknowledged, THERE IS NO FUCKING DEROGATORY TERM FOR IT IN ‘AMERICAN’, because “Manifest Destiny” is American history.
Wow! I’m so glad you can finally admit that fact! I really wonder why it took you so long to do so, but we can drop that.
However, I am curious about something else. If you now claim that you don’t believe that nefarious “Israeli” influence is responsible for the use of the neutral term “settlement” in English, what did you mean by this comment?
Maybe I am completely misreadong your post, but the plain text seems to claim that Israel does control what word the English media is going to use, or more generally how the settlements are going to be portrayed, through false, weaponized allegations of antisemitism.
Is that an accurate read of your post, or do you have some other explanation?