Disputation and The Straight Dope Message Board

[TubaDiva]

@Exapno_Mapcase

Is it ingracious to say that the ending I had hoped for was that you Tuba, as administrator, would see that Bone clearly had a blind spot that created a deficiency on the board’s most vulnerable issue and therefore remove him?

Where were you and this speech over the past week? Why were you not defending the women of this board? Why was a mod clearly in the wrong the only representative of authority? Did you not notice Miller correcting a mistake and owning up to his lapse? This problem corrected itself, but that cannot be the way the board runs.

Bone, I also hope that you will stay on as a poster. We need voices on all sides who see no need to make themselves pittable to gain attention or because they lack simple human decency. The vast majority of people here never get pitted (or get defended if someone is silly enough to do so). That number would be zero in a better world. Getting that number as close to zero as possible should be the board’s goal, and fairly easily attainable.

Tuba, it’s in your ballpark. Step up to the plate. Hit a home run. And continue sports metaphors to victory.

I have separated this out from Bone’s thread to focus on this query exclusively.

1. **Bone is no longer a moderator on this board. ** Like all of us, he had times when he was glorious and times when he was wretched. All moderators have this; we are humans, with all the potential greatness within us and also the most base and faulty choices possible. I’ve made plenty of both in 23 years here, I freely admit error. None of us are immune. (But we’re not always wrong.) We do the best we can with what we have going at any moment. The hope is that we learn the greater lesson from all we do and move forward.

Bone is no longer a moderator on this board. Nothing is changed or improved by trashing him or (literally) Monday Morning Quarterbacking his choices. This should not be used as an opportunity to revile him on the way out. You can disagree with his choices but that doesn’t mean you should slap him around.

2. There is no doubt the Board has fallen far from our highest ideals and many of the principles we had in mind about how the community should operate. If you look back over our history you will see rises and falls. There’s times we got things exactly right and times we have failed. All we can do is look at where we are, put on our boots, and go back out to strive for betterment.

We are overdue for this evaluation and correction. And it’s time for action.

The SDMB reflects our society. Today we are in an increasingly tribal, unceasingly warring culture. People don’t discuss or debate in good faith, they decry, they demand, they assault. On the scorched fields of discourse they relentlessly search for targets to attack and destroy. Much of this is played out on the board, and it makes for hard going.

There is much that needs adjusting here. Everyone needs to be less judgmental, less aggressive, less inclined to condemn. There needs to be genuine social discourse. The entire idea about this place to begin with was that this would be a place where we could talk about damn near everything. More and more it’s a place where we can’t talk about anything.

That’s messed up and we’re all to blame. We own it all; all the goodness in places and all the toxic spots too. It belongs to all of us. It’s the house we all built a post at a time. And 22 millions posts later, here we are.

We can make things better. We can have nice things. It might not be exactly the place you personally envision 100% because we cannot be all things to all people. But we can and should make room for everybody. We can hear most every note in the symphony of the human spirit.

I ask for your assistance and your forbearance too; we can’t get there overnight. And we can’t get there unless everyone does their part. Be an active force for better; model the attitudes and behavior you want to see here. I believe good content has the potential to drive out the bad. Light can dispel darkness. I believe we can go back to a time when we were more gracious, where we gave the benefit of the doubt, where we respected the right to agree to disagree, when we didn’t judge people so hard and so harshly and hated them because they were different.

This change comes from all of us. Please work with me to make it real.

Jenny
your humble TubaDiva
Administrator

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

I agree that we all need to work at being our best selves here. Christ knows I don’t manage it, and can work at it.

Something I’d like to ask my fellow leftists to do: please allow space for reasonable opposition. Y’all have seen the James Baldwin quote:

@James Baldwin

We can disagree and still love each other unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist.

There’s plenty of conservative thought that denies the humanity/right to exist of oppressed groups, sure. I’m not going to list them here out of fear that someone will come along and hijack the thread to squabble over specific examples.

But there’s also plenty of conservative thought that doesn’t do that. Let’s disagree and still love one another when the dispute is about, say, how to educate our children, or how to balance personal liberty and tax structure, or how maximize US foreign policy as a force for good in the world.

I think I see people in disagreements trying to change the arena from “we disagree on the best methods” to “we disagree because you’re denying humanity.” I’d rather we work to shrink that latter category, while still recognizing its strong pernicious influence on major areas of disagreement.

I have things I’d ask for from board conservatives, but I something think my voice isn’t the most effective one to make those requests :).

–As for Bone, his farewell post included enough jabs at board culture, I’m pretty okay with folks responding to it critically. Had he given a resignation that was more vague, that’d be different; but talking about he can no longer “suffer fools” is pretty much inviting a response.

[Procrustus]

I’m perfectly willing to stay civil (or go back if I’ve strayed) on all kinds of contentious issues. Guns, abortion, climate change, tax policy, military spending, calorie disclosure requirements, etc. I fear, however, that I cannot stay civil on discussions involving support of President Trump. I suppose the best I can hope for is refraining from participation entirely.

[TubaDiva]

LHOD, I agree with most everything you said, and I thank you.

We can choose to be kind, especially when people are hurting. It costs us nothing to be gracious. It may even be a lesson. It is not difficult to take the gentler path. I wish we all could do that in our interactions here and elsewhere.

We could even start a little something. What the hell. With Thanksgiving just around the corner, it could even be a movement!

Jenny
your humble TubaDiva
If you know what I mean and I hope that you do.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@TubaDiva

LHOD, I agree with most everything you said, and I thank you.

We can choose to be kind, especially when people are hurting.

That’s fair. I respect Bone and don’t want to kick him when he’s down. I get that he’s really frustrated and stressed and don’t want to add to that stress.

I hope we can hold the same space in our hearts for folks who are so stressed and frustrated over long-time ugly cultural patterns on this board.

[MrDibble]

@TubaDiva

But we can and should make room for everybody.

So, you truly have learned nothing from all this, that much is clear.

Since your “everybody” seems to include racists, misogynists, homophobes, transphobes, Islamophobes…the list goes on.

[SpoilerVirgin]

@TubaDiva

We can choose to be kind, especially when people are hurting. It costs us nothing to be gracious. It may even be a lesson. It is not difficult to take the gentler path. I wish we all could do that in our interactions here and elsewhere.

Thank you. I have adopted “Make America Kind Again” and more specifically “Make [SpoilerVirgin] Kind Again” as my motto this year, and have worked to take that path both IRL and on the board. I would love for that same approach to be adopted by more SDMB participants. Maybe then I could feel more comfortable participating in political discussions and adding my voice to the debate.

[Thudlow_Boink]

@MrDibble

So, you truly have learned nothing from all this, that much is clear.

Since your “everybody” seems to include racists, misogynists, homophobes, transphobes, Islamophobes…the list goes on.

Yes, everybody. Don’t exclude anyone for what goes on inside their head; just exclude certain types of behavior and language (and, if necessary, people who indulge in it).

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@SpoilerVirgin

Thank you. I have adopted “Make America Kind Again” and more specifically “Make [SpoilerVirgin] Kind Again” as my motto this year, and have worked to take that path both IRL and on the board. I would love for that same approach to be adopted by more SDMB participants. Maybe then I could feel more comfortable participating in political discussions and adding my voice to the debate.

Huh.

Obviously, I’m comfortable enough in GD and Elections that I participate there. It occurs to me that we could all stand to hear what people who AREN’T posting there need in order to feel comfortable.

That might almost be worth a separate thread.

[Jasmine]

Amen, TubaDiva!!

Too many people make a game out of walking the edge of civility or of crossing that line entirely and then arguing technicalities in an effort to justify themselves. If this Board goes up or down, it does so because of the behavior of the people posting, not because of moderators.

Working in the educational world has shown me first hand that far too many kids have the attitude that it is someone else’s job to “make” them behave as opposed to viewing it as a social responsibility that is their own. These kids ultimately become adults. Does that mean that their attitude automatically changes for the better? I don’t think so.

It is our responsibility to make this a good place and no one else’s. Pretty much all of us can do a better job of it, and that includes me.

[TubaDiva]

@MrDibble

So, you truly have learned nothing from all this, that much is clear.

Since your “everybody” seems to include racists, misogynists, homophobes, transphobes, Islamophobes…the list goes on.

While we strive for an open and inclusive community, there are certain people that are counterproductive to the aims of the denizens of this board.

Chief among them are the cynical, the cruel, the name callers, and the judgmental.

They are accomplices and facilitators to the axe grinders, the agenda seekers, and the trolls.

Everyone can be part of the process to improvement or a step on the Road to Perdition.

I know which one is likely be more productive and a hell of a lot more fun.

Use wisely your freedom of choice.

Jenny
your humble TubaDiva
Another way to look at it.

[MrDibble]

Again, that sounds like a threat…

[TubaDiva]

@Jasmine

Amen, TubaDiva!!

Too many people make a game out of walking the edge of civility or of crossing that line entirely and then arguing technicalities in an effort to justify themselves. If this Board goes up or down, it does so because of the behavior of the people posting, not because of moderators.

Working in the educational world has shown me first hand that far too many kids have the attitude that it is someone else’s job to “make” them behave as opposed to viewing it as a social responsibility that is their own. These kids ultimately become adults. Does that mean that their attitude automatically changes for the better? I don’t think so.

It is our responsibility to make this a good place and no one else’s. Pretty much all of us can do a better job of it, and that includes me.

Yes! Double yes with sugar on top!

Thank you!

Jenny
your humble TubaDiva

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@TubaDiva

Everyone can be part of the process to improvement or a step on the Road to Perdition.

I know which one is likely be more productive and a hell of a lot more fun.

I get where you’re going, but if you’re gonna convince me that the process of self-improvement is more fun than the road to perdition, good luck with that.

[HurricaneDitka]

TubaDiva,

I admire and appreciate your cheerful and optimistic attitude. I hope it’s contagious.

[Atamasama]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I get where you’re going, but if you’re gonna convince me that the process of self-improvement is more fun than the road to perdition, good luck with that.

The Dark Side does have cookies, I’ve been told.

[kopek]

Thanks TD – and everyone else involved as well.

And we’ll try while I am sure we’ll all turn out trying now and again.

[nightshadea]

first off what would help is making a bright line on personal insults even in the pit and strictly enforcing it

[What_Exit]

@nightshadea

first off what would help is making a bright line on personal insults even in the pit and strictly enforcing it

Not really, trolls love “bright lines”. “Don’t be a jerk” should be the guiding principle.

ETA: I want to make it clear, I am in no way calling you a troll, I just offering up why I don’t like the idea of defining specifics. Rules Lawyering is counterproductive.

[Johanna]

I’m with Jenny!

@TubaDiva

We could even start a little something. What the hell. With Thanksgiving just around the corner, it could even be a movement!

…and if you’re in a situation like that there’s only one thing you can do, and that’s walk into the Dope wherever you are, just walk in an’ say "Doper:

You can talk anything you want
At Straight Dope restaurant."

And walk out. …And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in, singing a bar of Straight Dope Restaurant and walking out. They may think it’s an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day, I said fifty people a day walking in singin’ a bar of Straight Dope Restaurant and walking out. And friends, they may thinks it’s a movement! And that’s what it is, the Straight Dope Restaurant Anti-Massacree Movement, and all you got to do to join is sing it the next time it comes around on the guitar, with feeling.