Do adult men need women to be the best people they can be?

[TheWhoToTheWhatNow]

@Cat_Whisperer

{Bolding mine} Freudian slip?

haha whoops

@Cat_Whisperer

You’re making a lot of assumptions here.

True, the question in the OP itself is “do adult men need women blah blah” so I mean right from the get-go I think it’s fair to assume that everyone reading this thread knows that what we’re talking about is VAST generalizations and not absolutes.

@Cat_Whisperer

To start with, women don’t always like being called “chicks.”

Probably not. But your instinct to post that starting note kind of illustrates my point: don’t do anything unless you’re 100% sure everyone who may read/hear it will approve 100% with it.

@Cat_Whisperer

If a guy wants to be a rock star and tour the world, he needs to not try to get into a serious relationship with one woman who doesn’t want to be the wife left behind.

Agreed. My point isn’t so much that having rockstar dreams is bad, or that getting into a relationship is bad…it’s more that men should do a little more self-analysis and realistically look at “What do I want in life? Where am I headed? And what should I do or not do to get there?” I think especially today, most guys are wishy-washy and just pinging off whatever the world throws at them, bouncing into whatever takes the least effort.

If a guy WANTS to be married and have the white-picket fence, that’s awesome, it’s not my thing but I fully support him because he knows what he wants. But I think a lot of guys fall into the white-picket fence because it was convenient/easy or because they didn’t really look at “what DO I want in my life?” or because they didn’t have the balls to say “this isn’t going to lead to where I want, so I’m going to end things now instead of letting them play out and waste both our time”.

Thus you end up with guys in marriages they don’t want to be in, cheating on their spouses or having a red-convertible buying mid-life crisis because they didn’t know themselves well enough to know that they would want to do explore those things before they die. Most people in the “I left my wife and kids” thread are harping on the guy because he made promises he isn’t keeping, and those stem from him not going “in my ideal relationship I want a woman who I have a solid friendship with and lots in common with” and now he’s discovering it late and acting on it chasing something he should have known he was looking for in the first place and hurting those around him because of it.

@Cat_Whisperer

I get the impression that you’re a pretty young guy, dating pretty young women.

29, and dating all age ranges. My current GF of 7 months is 32 and doesn’t want kids or marriage (or go crazy during PMS haha), I’m dating her specifically because I know I don’t want those things either. My last GF wanted kids/marriage and I didn’t know myself well enough to realize that I didn’t and I ended up wasting her time and crushing her in the end when I finally realized “We don’t want the same things and it’s wrong of me to not break things off now that I know that”.

So I DO have experience with both ends of the “man knowing what he wants in life” spectrum. I’ve BEEN the metaphorical guy I’m talking shit about in these posts and looking back I can’t really respect my former self as a man because I didn’t know what I wanted.

@MandaJo

The women you know might have bought into the “idiot man-child vs. all-knowing, all-powerful woman” stereotypes, but they don’t really fly in the real world of grown-up men marrying grown-up women.

There’s no reason to insult the girls I date by implying they’re not grown-ups.

@MandaJo

I don’t see how only women benefit from security/stability

Me neither, that’s why I didn’t say that.

@MandaJo

You seem convinced that only women are interested in standard-of-living issues.

I don’t believe I said that anywhere. I think it’s more important to women though, but not necessarily because it IS more important to them from a logistical/evolutionary/survival position…just that society encourages women to look for a guy with a good steady income.

@MandaJo

I’d say one of the traits of a good marriage is that the couple more or less agree on the standard of living they consider acceptable.

I agree. But women tend to have an idea of what they want (whether those things are realistic or not), but men these days are going “I’ll take anything with tits that smiles at me and accepts me for who I am because I’m pretty worthless and don’t really have any standards”. See the RIDICULOUSLY disproportionate number of messages men VS women get on dating sites for an example of this. Thus you have a bunch of guys who aren’t their best selves looking for a woman to “make them want to be a better man” instead of them WANTING to be a better man for their own self-esteem and confidence.

• TWTTWN

[you_with_the_face]

@TheWhoToTheWhatNow

In my experience the guys who go “I was nothing until I met my wife, she made me who I am today” and “she makes me want to be a better man”, were, before they met their future-wives, not guys that many people would consider quality male role models.

(bolding mine)

If by “many people” you mean you, then I can’t argue with that.

By your posting history, I’ve come to the conclusion that you see the entire world through the lense of status-minded, stereotyped masculinity. If a guy exhibits traits outside of this stereotype, you seem to dismiss his worth. In doing so, this makes you come across as inordinately focused on image and insecure in your own manhood. This gets old after a while.

Obama is the kind of guy who I imagine would say “she makes me a better person”. Tell me, does Obama strike you as inferior male role model? Because if that’s the case, bring on more inferior male role models, please!

[Phlosphr]

No.

Adult Men need to be the best they can be to attract the right mate. Some have the mindful capacity to continue to support their own personal heath and wellness over the years, so they can be the best they can be for themselves AND their partner.
The others don’t care, let themselves go, consistently argue over control and have very little real control over who they are and where they fit in the world.
In my experience, it is those men who take good care of themselves, physically and emotionally who have the happiest most well balanced lives with a partner.

[TheWhoToTheWhatNow]

@Troubles

:dubious: I’m pretty sure most women don’t experience PMS.

I might be using it wrong. I mean period-time when a girl’s emotions tend to be all over the map for a few days to a week. If that’s not what PMS is then I apologize, I don’t have a vagina myself so I only need a rough knowledge of the terminology to get by.

@Troubles

I’m curious…do you think gay guys are stronger than straight guys, since they don’t have to impress women or rely on them?

That’s an interesting point. But I think with gay guys you can just turn the “women” into “another man” and the discussion is the same. Really, in my mind the OP should be “Do people need other people to be the best person they can be?”

I actually have a lot more respect for openly gay guys in terms of strength of conviction, acceptance of themselves, confidence in who they are, etc. because they face so much more opposition in society (sadly). No one questions a guy when he says “I want to have sex with a girl” so he’s never really had to look at himself, his feelings/beliefs, and stand up for them. But a guy who, from his teens has been saying “I want to have sex with a guy”, has run into opposition left and right and has essentially been forced to look at himself deep down and have a very strong identity.

And if in the end he says “Yes, this is who I am and I won’t deny that for the sake of getting your approval of me”, I have a LOT of respect for that. Especially compared to the guy who got married just because he was pressured into it by the girl and his friends/family nagging him even though he may not necessarily have wanted to do it and now 10 years later he’s cheating or getting divorced.

• TWTTWN

[Spice_Weasel]

My favorite metaphor for a partnership is that it’s like a base camp. Your relationship is your safe space, your shelter from the cold, the place where you receive nourishment and sustenance. But those mountains out there? You’re going to have to climb them alone.

In essence, I think a good partnership will ideally make both people stronger as individuals. My husband plays a pretty significant role in my development as a person and vice-versa. To give an example of how that works, he’s currently a Ph.D. student in clinical psychology, and he has said repeatedly that he doesn’t know how he would get through it without my support. But because he has this safe space, this base camp, he knows even during the coldest of journeys that he will have me to come home to. And I think that security can give a person a certain sense of confidence or perspective about other things going on in their lives that really opens them up as a person. Like I know I can bomb a presentation or fail to meet someone’s expectations or have an issue with a friend or family member, but none of that will touch the loving and stable thing we have created together. It’s the comfort of knowing that someone really does celebrate you for who you are and that none of your petty outside dramas can screw that up.

So in short, yes. I think people need people to be the best they can be, period.

[TheWhoToTheWhatNow]

@you_with_the_face

If by “many people” you mean you, then I can’t argue with that.

Are you saying a good male role model is a guy who doesn’t know himself, doesn’t know what he wants, is wishy-washy, doesn’t take care of himself because he doesn’t believe in his own self-worth, etc.? Or do you just instinctively disagree with me because you dislike me?

@you_with_the_face

By your posting history, I’ve come to the conclusion that you see the entire world through the lense of status-minded, stereotyped masculinity.

You can label me in whatever way makes you comfortable disregarding my views.

@you_with_the_face

If a guy exhibits traits outside of this stereotype, you seem to dismiss his worth.

Exactly which part of my posts in this thread do you disagree with? I can’t very well defend myself against your profiling me if you don’t tell me what points I’ve made you disagree with.

@you_with_the_face

Obama is the kind of guy who I imagine would say “she makes me a better person”. Tell me, does Obama strike you as inferior male role model? Because if that’s the case, bring on more inferior male role models, please!

Has he said that? “I couldn’t have been president if it weren’t for my wife making me a real man”? You don’t think he would have been president if he had married any other woman? Besides, I would imagine part of being the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES is saying the politically correct things that ensure he’ll get voted for again. Plus you’re imagining he’d say that so I mean, that’s not even a valid example from the start.

@Phlosphr

The others don’t care, let themselves go, consistently argue over control and have very little real control over who they are and where they fit in the world. In my experience, it is those men who take good care of themselves, physically and emotionally who have the happiest most well balanced lives with a partner.

Agreed. A guy who has his shit together adds a woman to his life as an enhancement of who he is, not to fix who he is.

• TWTTWN

[Cat_Whisperer]

@olivesmarch4th

My favorite metaphor for a partnership is that it’s like a base camp. Your relationship is your safe space, your shelter from the cold, the place where you receive nourishment and sustenance. But those mountains out there? You’re going to have to climb them alone.

In essence, I think a good partnership will ideally make both people stronger as individuals. My husband plays a pretty significant role in my development as a person and vice-versa. To give an example of how that works, he’s currently a Ph.D. student in clinical psychology, and he has said repeatedly that he doesn’t know how he would get through it without my support. But because he has this safe space, this base camp, he knows even during the coldest of journeys that he will have me to come home to. And I think that security can give a person a certain sense of confidence or perspective about other things going on in their lives that really opens them up as a person. Like I know I can bomb a presentation or fail to meet someone’s expectations or have an issue with a friend or family member, but none of that will touch the loving and stable thing we have created together.

So in short, yes. I think people need people to be the best they can be, period.

And you bring all those stories (your successes and your failures) back home to your base camp, too, for commiseration and entertainment.

[you_with_the_face]

@TheWhoToTheWhatNow

I agree. But women tend to have an idea of what they want (whether those things are realistic or not), but men these days are going “I’ll take anything with tits that smiles at me and accepts me for who I am because I’m pretty worthless and don’t really have any standards”.

Maybe you see this attitude a lot from men, but I don’t. In fact, it’s a belief that flies in the face of reality. The majority of men aren’t that desperate, because if they were, the majority of women wouldn’t want to be with them. And yet the majority of women do want to be with the majority of men. They even have sex with them at unprecedented frequencies!

As a self-professed pick up artist, this should be obvious, right? In general, women aren’t attracted to needy men. So how come these so-called needy men manage running around nowadays manage to get married? Your math isn’t adding up.

See the RIDICULOUSLY disproportionate number of messages men VS women get on dating sites for an example of this. Thus you have a bunch of guys who aren’t their best selves looking for a woman to “make them want to be a better man” instead of them WANTING to be a better man for their own self-esteem and confidence.

I see a lot of men who feel entitled to relationships even though they aren’t all attractive. Many of them will not settle for anyone less than a 8.5, either. But I don’t see many guys who are looking for just any ole person with XX chromosomes to make them a better man. Not saying they don’t exist; just not to the extent that you’re making it out to be.

[MandaJo]

@TheWhoToTheWhatNow

There’s no reason to insult the girls I date by implying they’re not grown-ups.

This quote wasn’t from my post.

Me neither, that’s why I didn’t say that.

You said

Ya but you’re a chick, having a partner is good for you . . . Teamwork benefits you because it ensures stability/security.

That certainly implies that men don’t need stability/teamwork.

I don’t believe I said that anywhere. I think it’s more important to women though, but not necessarily because it IS more important to them from a logistical/evolutionary/survival position…just that society encourages women to look for a guy with a good steady income.

You said men turn away from dream careers because they feel the need to earn to satisfy women, not themselves. That sure sounds like accusing women of needing material comforts while assuming men are more stoic.

I agree. But women tend to have an idea of what they want (whether those things are realistic or not), but men these days are going “I’ll take anything with tits that smiles at me and accepts me for who I am because I’m pretty worthless and don’t really have any standards”. See the RIDICULOUSLY disproportionate number of messages men VS women get on dating sites for an example of this. Thus you have a bunch of guys who aren’t their best selves looking for a woman to “make them want to be a better man” instead of them WANTING to be a better man for their own self-esteem and confidence.

• TWTTWN

This has not been my experience. I know plenty of women who also don’t know what they want, and either wander around confused or follow the pattern of what they think is expected without any actual introspection. If you think this is limited to males, I’d suggest you simply know the hearts and minds of your male friends more than your female friends.

[Freudian_Slit]

@TheWhoToTheWhatNow

Males in society today are overall pretty pussified. “A generation of men raised by women” and all that jazz. That’s not entirely a bad thing, there’s a lot more social tolerance and such now.

I think you need to go back and watch Fight Club again before you post because it seems you missed the point…

[TheWhoToTheWhatNow]

@you_with_the_face

The majority of men aren’t that desperate, because if they were, the majority of women wouldn’t want to be with them.

Women do the same thing, settle for less than they wanted. They just do it later in life when their looks have faded and the baby-timer is ticking down. But in their hot early 20s they were turning down guys left and right.

@you_with_the_face

And yet the majority of women do want to be with the majority of men.

Then why did the football jock fuck the whole cheerleader team while the 30 nerds in computer class were virgins? I’m pretty sure the 80/20 rule applies here.

@you_with_the_face

In general, women aren’t attracted to needy men. So how come these so-called needy men manage running around nowadays manage to get married?

Because those women are needy/insecure too. Thus they settle with a nice guy they’re not really attracted to but who can provide a stable income and then they cheat and society goes “you go girl way to go for what you want, that guy was a loser anyway”. Generalizing here, of course.

@you_with_the_face

But I don’t see many guys who are looking for just any ole person with XX chromosomes to make them a better man. Not saying they don’t exist; just not to the extent that you’re making it out to be.

Work in any IT/tech/etc. industry or go to any bar on any given night and you’ll find a fuckload of them.

• TWTTWN

[you_with_the_face]

@TheWhoToTheWhatNow

Are you saying a good male role model is a guy who doesn’t know himself, doesn’t know what he wants, is wishy-washy, doesn’t take care of himself because he doesn’t believe in his own self-worth, etc.? Or do you just instinctively disagree with me because you dislike me?

I don’t parse all of these negative statements from “My wife makes me a better person.” Why do you?

Exactly which part of my posts in this thread do you disagree with? I can’t very well defend myself against your profiling me if you don’t tell me what points I’ve made you disagree with.

The impression I get comes from the voluminous posts you’ve made on anything remotely about dating and gender expectations. It’s enough that you’ve introduced “quality male role model” into this discussion. A role model for whom? An aspiring pick up artist?

Has he said that? “I couldn’t have been president if it weren’t for my wife making me a real man”?

Do you see the crazy lengths you’ve gone to interpret a simple statement about one’s relationship with another person into a negative statement about one’s own masculinity? I mean, come on. A “real man”? No one is saying this except you.

“She completes me.” How about that? If a guy said this about his wife, would you still see him as not being a “quality male role model”?

A guy who has his shit together adds a woman to his life as an enhancement of who he is, not to fix who he is.

I don’t think men need women to fix themselves as people either (and vice versa), and in fact have gotten into arguments with my very dad on this subject. That said, if a woman is enhancing a guy’s life and who he is, then by definition she’s helping to make him a better person. Nothing more serious than that.

[wonky]

My fiance brings out my better traits. I like who I am when I’m with him. The ingredients are the same, but the ratios change.

[TheWhoToTheWhatNow]

@MandaJo

This quote wasn’t from my post.

My bad, I fucked up the quotes when I posted and then panicked when I hit Edit because of that damn 5 minute Edit thing! I apologize!

@MandaJo

That certainly implies that men don’t need stability/teamwork.

You’re a chick, having an abundance of food is good for you…when you’re pregnant you have to eat for two. Having a secure supply of food ensures stability/security.

…that doesn’t mean men don’t need food.

@MandaJo

You said men turn away from dream careers because they feel the need to earn to satisfy women, not themselves. That sure sounds like accusing women of needing material comforts while assuming men are more stoic.

It accuses men of putting other people’s needs (realistic/required or not) ahead of their own needs.

@MandaJo

I know plenty of women who also don’t know what they want, and either wander around confused or follow the pattern of what they think is expected without any actual introspection.

Ya, there’s a bunch. That’s why I said the OP should ideally be “do people need other people to be their best selves?”. But if you ask a girl what she wants, she’s likely to list off a long laundry-list (good career, over a certain height, nice but not too nice, blah blah blah) whereas guys tend to go “uhhh I dunno…big tits I guess. And it’d be cool if she liked videogames.”

Granted I’m young, so the guys I interact with tend to be around my age…but isn’t that kind of the point? This is the stage where men are supposed to know themselves and choose between needing someone else to complete them or carving their own destiny in life, and I’ve met VERY few guys who actually have a purpose beyond “dunno, guess I’ll get high and play xbox today…” Where does that lifeless apathetic mentality come from? Why aren’t we surrounded by guys striving to achieve something?

@MandaJo

If you think this is limited to males

I didn’t say it was limited to males.

@you_with_the_face

It’s enough that you’ve introduced “quality male role model” into this discussion. A role model for whom?

For males growing up who are learning behaviors that will set them on a course of flailing around through life VS carving their own path toward what they want. That might not seem like an important thing to you, but you’re probably not the metaphorical wishy-washy guy who’s going to end up making an “I left my wife and kids”, “I cheated on my wife”, “I bought a new red convertible”, etc. thread 20 years from now.

@you_with_the_face

Do you see the crazy lengths you’ve gone to interpret a simple statement about one’s relationship with another person into a negative statement about one’s own masculinity?

The OP’s question says “need”. I’m saying a man shouldn’t “need” anyone but himself. He can “want” others, he can “enjoy the company of” others, but at the end of the day he should be able to stand on his own two feet.

@you_with_the_face

“She completes me.” How about that? If a guy said this about his wife, would you still see him as not being a “quality male role model”?

I would ask him what was incomplete about him before he met her.

@you_with_the_face

That said, if a woman is enhancing a guy’s life and who he is, then by definition she’s helping to make him a better person. Nothing more serious than that.

If the OP’s question had been “can a woman enhance a man’s life and bring out the best in him?” I’d have posted “Sure.” But the question implies that by default adult men are incomplete and need women.

• TWTTWN

[Malthus]

Heh, judging by some of my friends - if they were deprived of the companionship of women, and left to their own devices, they’d gradually regress to teenage-hood and beyond in terms of eating habits and basic hygene … left alone long enough, and pretty soon they’d be using rocks to bash cans of food open on the floor.

Reminds me of what happened with a friend of mine - he ended up living alone in a cabin with a couple of his buddies, and boy did they ever … regress. The place was beyond filthy. Once, when I visited the place, dinner was a big chunk on meat with a knife stuck in it - help yourself. After dinner, it was just left there on the table while everyone got stoned … then, up from a hole in the floor crawled an animal that looked sort of like a cross between a rat and a snake, grabbed a chunk off the plate, and dragged it back down the hole.

My first thought was “WTF am I smoking?!” but, as it turns out, this was a regular occurance - they had a family of minks living in the cellar. I mean, having mice is bad, and having rats is worse, but who has ever heard of people having minks?

That’s my stereotype of what happens when guys live without female companionship for too long. They end up with minks in the cellar.

[The_Understander]

@Phlosphr

No.

Adult Men need to be the best they can be to attract the right mate. Some have the mindful capacity to continue to support their own personal heath and wellness over the years, so they can be the best they can be for themselves AND their partner.
The others don’t care, let themselves go, consistently argue over control and have very little real control over who they are and where they fit in the world.
In my experience, it is those men who take good care of themselves, physically and emotionally who have the happiest most well balanced lives with a partner.

This, in spades.

[you_with_the_face]

@TheWhoToTheWhatNow

If the OP’s question had been “can a woman enhance a man’s life and bring out the best in him?” I’d have posted “Sure.” But the question implies that by default adult men are incomplete and need women.

I think you’re refering to just in the title, not the actual OP. Nothing is disagreeable in the OP, IMO.

I don’t think anyone needs a spouse to be a upstanding citizen, and this applies to men and women. But it’s not unreasonable to think that some if not the majority of people (irrespective of gender) operate at peak condition when they are in a good relationship. We are social animals that frequently pair bond, and it would be unreasonable to expect otherwise. And I say this as someone who has spent most of my life single (including the present).

This is not a man or a woman thing. To get a good an idea of why your posts invite argument from me, check out these snippets you wrote earlier;

Ya but you’re a chick, having a partner is good for you because you’re laid up for 9 months when pregnant…

If anything, I’ve found women will hold a guy back…

Males in society today are overall pretty pussified. “A generation of men raised by women” and all that jazz…

There’s so much contemptuous “girls are like this, guys are like that” going on here that it makes me wonder why you see the world so sharply split along gender lines. Maybe if this was one-off thing, it would not be weird. But its a pattern that is begging to be…mocked, quite frankly.

[TheWhoToTheWhatNow]

@Malthus

Reminds me of what happened with a friend of mine - he ended up living alone in a cabin with a couple of his buddies, and boy did they ever … regress.

It’s a funny story, but in terms of this thread it’s an example of what I’m talking about. Where are these guys’ drives to take care of themselves or be their best? We have a bunch of guys who are putting in the least effort possible to exist…that’s depressing and embarrassing to me. As a society we shouldn’t be encouraging this stuff (but flip on TV and there’s the sitcom Homer Simpson stereotype all over, making sure kids growing up understand that they’re useless without a woman to keep them on track).

@you_with_the_face

I think you’re refering to just in the title, not the actual OP. Nothing is disagreeable in the OP, IMO.

Now that you mention it, I’d say the OP’s title and actual post are two different questions. The actual text is about enhancing/supporting, the title is about needing. The “needing” concept is the only thing I have an issue with.

@you_with_the_face

There’s so much contemptuous “girls are like this, guys are like that” going on here that it makes me wonder why you see the world so sharply split along gender lines.

I don’t subscribe to the notion that everyone is exactly the same except some people have vaginas and some have penises and that’s the only difference. It’s not a judgement, I’m not saying one side is better than the other…an ambitious man could fall off Mount Everest.

@you_with_the_face

Maybe if this was one-off thing, it would not be weird. But its a pattern that is begging to be…mocked, quite frankly.

Why? Because it doesn’t fit the current norm of “everyone is a special wonderful snowflake and no one is different from anyone else and let’s all just get along”? Because I don’t jump in and say “ya, men are worthless without women! high-five grrrl power!!”?

I’m sorry if you disagree with me, but that’s why I’m explaining my views on a discussion board.

• TWTTWN

[Malthus]

@TheWhoToTheWhatNow

It’s a funny story, but in terms of this thread it’s an example of what I’m talking about. Where are these guys’ drives to take care of themselves or be their best? We have a bunch of guys who are putting in the least effort possible to exist…that’s depressing and embarrassing to me. As a society we shouldn’t be encouraging this stuff (but flip on TV and there’s the sitcom Homer Simpson stereotype all over, making sure kids growing up understand that they’re useless without a woman to keep them on track).

Heh, while the story is (sadly) true I’m not being entirely serious.

On a more serious note, I’ll say this: that in our culture at least, both men and women who are not in a relationship tend to hang about with peer groups of their own sex, who often as not drive the individuals in a lowest-common-denominator sense. For men, this sometimes takes the form of an extreme laddishness - excessive drinking and drugging is encouraged, along with low personal standards. It’s more a tendency than a rule of course.

[Spice_Weasel]

@TheWhoToTheWhatNow

I don’t subscribe to the notion that everyone is exactly the same except some people have vaginas and some have penises and that’s the only difference. It’s not a judgement, I’m not saying one side is better than the other…an ambitious man could fall off Mount Everest.

Men and women have differences biologically and different life experiences based on their gender identity, true. But the extent of those differences and the impact they have on human behavior are hotly debated and vary tremendously from individual to individual. If you’ve been around here longer than a week you must know this place is full of women and men with all sorts of different likes, dislikes, ideas, hopes, dreams and goals in life.

You definitely seem to think all women are motivated by the same or similar things and all men are motivated by the same or similar other things. This is simply not true. I admire you for your can-do attitude, and can relate to a lot of your posts about self-improvement because I have gone through a similar process. But there’s still plenty more you can learn about women. Right now it just feels like you view ‘‘manhood’’ and ‘‘womanhood’’ through a very narrow lens. For some of us, it feels very cramped when you shove us into boxes like that. Stick around a bit longer - I’ve no doubt it will be a very eye-opening experience, if you allow it to be.