You thought I was being condescending to you? That was not my intention; my apologies to you. Maybe it was your repeated use of the term “chicks” that made you seem younger. 
Regardless of how much experience you have, it’s hard to see you as the worldly expert in the ways of life when you say stuff like:
Really? A rockstar? Ima need you to see how comical this is.
I know a lot of women who had dreams of owning a pony. When they were ten. But at some point, most of us learn to put away these fantasies and focus on more realistic, practical goals. Not everyone can or should be Keith Richards. Nevermind that rockstars are some of the most dysfunctional, self-destructive people on the planet. Someone has to fix the broken toilets, remove the rotten teeth, teach the next generation, and deliver the mail. So if women are responsible for making sure men do these things, then this supports the OP’s point.
And OMG not everyone should own a pony, either.
Ratched back the loqacious know-it-allness and the grief people are giving you will probably decline. Just a hunch. Take it or leave it. Appealing to all this experience you supposedly have is unimpressive when stone-cold silly things keep tumbling out of your keyboard.
If you are giving up your hobby or career or “dream posessions” because a woman “told you to”, they probably either didn’t mean that much to you or they weren’t that realistic in the first place.
If you constantly feel that you have to give up those sort of things for a woman, then maybe you are with the wrong woman.
And if you resent that she is harping on you to do things like “loose some weight”, “get some exercise”, “don’t drink so much”, “stop hanging out until 5am”, “get a job”, “stop taking drugs”, “throw on some clean clothes”, or “stop acting like an asshole”, then maybe you need to take a hard look at your life. Because in this case, it sounds like the only thing the woman is holding you back from is being a fuckup.
Do you plan to compete against another human being in any of these scenarios?
And how “great” would Mozart or Beethoven or Van Gogh have been if no one ever heard their music or saw their art?
You don’t know if that’s true or not. That’s what makes it arrogant. As far as you know, the person you addressed might have spent their entire life living in Manhattan working in various people-centric jobs where they travel internationally100% of the time.
And even if it is true, it raises a philosophical issue of whether it is better to have a million “single serving friends” or a small number of really good life long friends.
I find it interesting that you are such an avid study of PUA while at the same time seem to have a very self-centered, almost narcissistic view of people. It makes me wonder what is the point of learning to attract people when you don’t seem to want to be put out by them in any way?
IMO, as there are a handful of supermodel type women on this earth, a handful of Hillary Clintons/Jane Goodalls/Queen Elizabeths/movie star types - so there are a handful of Alpha Male types who have swallowed whole the Playboy lifestyle. The firecrackers who travel the world, know their gourmet foods and wines, drive Mercedes, trek the Himalayas, dress sharp 24/7…Then there is a frighteningly large number of poor creatures (socially inept/autistic/mentally ill/morbidly obese) who live at home in their mommy’s basement…That leaves a large middle ground of Ordinary Joes who go to school, go to work at Cubicle Industries, date, and marry because That’s What You Do in life. And I say with the best of intentions, I married an Ordinary Joe and if it wasn’t for me, A Woman, we would still be living in an apartment, eating off his mom’s spare plates, spending vacation time cleaning out the garage, sitting on his bachelor pad naugahyde furniture, and eating pizza every night. Left to his own devices, Mr. Sali would either keep on keepin’ on as usual, or go wild and buy a Hummer, eat out every night, or drink a six pack a night. So yeah, I think a woman (OR a gay partner. Some significant other) makes a man be the best he can be, and moreso when there are children brought into the picture. I know the SD men are all above average in looks, talent, energy, creativity, and earning power, but the Ordinary Joes I see are content with what they have been brought up knowing. They need a bit of a push, to be better, more knowledgeable, well-rounded types.
Engaging in some armchair psychologizing, I would guess it stems from a need to control and not be controlled in turn. Accepting a partnership means allowing yourself to be controlled to one degree or another, while engaging in PUA practices ensures that you’re fully controlling your interactions with others.
My apologies for taking it wrong then! I get a LOT of condescending “you don’t understand how the REAL world works” stuff from people who don’t get that I understand it VERY well…I’ve just come to different conclusions about it than them.
That reaction is specifically why the full quote was written as:
[QUOTE=Me, earlier]
I can’t be the only one who knows guys who had dreams of being a rockstar (catch-all phrase there, basically making a career out of their statistically-unlikely-to-be-profitable hobby/passion), or travelling the world, or working on that dream project/hobby, or living in that dream location, or owning that dream possession (car, boat, etc.)
[/QUOTE]
(bolding/italics added now)
To show that “rockstar” could be anything “writer”, “film maker”, “professional dart player”. It’s like you just read until you get to a word or phrase you can over-react to and then stop reading there. I know I type a lot, but if you’d read the whole thing it would save a lot of confusion.
I imagine pretty much any successful entrepreneur had a ton of people around him/her who told them exactly that. Personally, I think that’s a very sad, bleak outlook to have and to spread around society.
I’m beginning to think it doesn’t matter how I word things, after all half of the arguments directed my way in this thread weren’t even actually about anything I actually said but what people just assumed I said because they’ve already summed me all up in their head instead of reading what I’m writing.
Agreed. I think people should be very selective about who they get into a long term relationship with…but I also don’t think many people are. Thus the epic 50% divorce rate and cheating and everything. And again, that comes down to knowing yourself and your goals/values in life…the right woman can enhance those, but the wrong one will snuff them out. So right there the answer to the OP becomes “She’s not necessarily needed, but if she has the same goals and values as you she can enhance your life” which is a statement I’d agree with. It’s only the notion that a man is nothing until he has a woman propping him up keeping him from being a fuckup that I have an issue with.
That’s a key point I think. Lots of great artists weren’t appreciated or discovered in their time, but their work itself hasn’t changed in content. If we consider it good now then it must have been just as good back then, logically.
Agreed. That’s why I said “I suspect I have more experience” rather than “I have more experience”. It’s always possible that someone has more, it’s just not likely statistically. And when people tell me in condescending absolutes that I lack experience and things simply aren’t true and that’s not how they work in the “real world” and all like they’re more worldly than me, they BETTER have more experience than me.
In the general context of being happy with your life, having some good life long friends is probably better.
But in a thread about social dynamics where you’re saying “this is the way things work”, if your opinion is based on interacting with the same 5 friends you had in high school and mine is based on interacting with thousands of people a year, how in the world is my opinion automatically the one to get shit on?
I’m not trying to seduce anyone here. I made this account purely to answer things without censoring any of my ideas or having to worry about being politically correct or worrying about my reputation. I present my ideas very strongly, but they’re based in a lot of real-world experience so to me they ARE very strong ideas and people who don’t socialize as much as I do debating that experience seems silly to me…but I don’t make fun of anyone else’s beliefs or insult them unless they do it to me first. I’ve been nothing but polite since I joined the board despite people taking pot-shots at me left and right that often aren’t even based on anything I’ve actually said.
If the person is important to me, they can put me out all they want. I’ll bend over backwards to help them. But if they’re being a dick to me on a message board (not because I’ve provoked them personally but just because they disagree with my opinions), then I’m not going to waste any effort trying to be nice to them. Golden rule and all that.
I agree with your whole post in that I think we need Ordinary Joes to make the world go round but I wanted to quote this part specifically…The question I’d ask here is: WHY are there only a handful? If everyone worked out like Schwartznegger, we’d all be giant body-builders. If everyone poured as much work into their craft as a movie star, we’d all be great actors. If every tall person put as much work into learning to play basketball as Michael Jordan, we’d have a ton of amazing athletes. These people aren’t inherently different from any of us, they just have a mindset of “I am going to be the best at what I do” instead of “Not everyone can be amazing so I might as well be happy with what I’ve got”.
There’s a great remix on YouTube of Will Smith interviews where he explains his phenominal work ethic and determination/drive. Why don’t we instill that mentality in our kids?
So in relation to the OP, in a relationship where the woman is the one who comes along and makes the guy go “I want to be the best man I can be for her!”, why was his mentality before that “I’m cool with being a hummer-driving take-out food alcoholic” and not “I want to be the best man I can be!”?
Like where along the lines of men growing up are they learning “it’s cool to just be a slack-ass” initially?
That’s what it is, alright.
- TWTTWN
That’s not the Golden Rule. Turn the other cheek, etc.
Most of the people who achieve the career from the statistically unlikely to be profitable hobby and or passion do so before the age of thirty. How long do they pursue it without achieving it before they give it up? I would say that more often men delude themselves to thinking they can get there still rather than the woman holding them back.
Sorry to simply +1 it, but I have to…
Minus the Navy- I am just a minor bureaucrat…
Naw, I read that just fine. I stopped at rockstar simply because it underscores what you’re really talking about: youthful fantasies that most people stop indulging in after a certain age.
That said, Stephen King is the most profilic writer of our day, and even Tom Cullen knows the name of his wife. Is Michael Moore married? Yup. So is Bon Jovi. So are most professional athletes. So how have you reached your conclusions about women holding men back? Be honest here.
Now that I think about it some more, I can think of a lot more married men who are exordinarily successful than I know of married women. Obama, Donald Trump, and Bill Gates are married, while Oprah, Martha Stewart, and Condi Rice aren’t.
Hmmmmmm.
Why even bother? I can sum up every post he’ll ever make about women and relationships right now with some dismissive nonsense about men becoming a bunch of Nancies due to the feminization of the world, some intermittent chest-beating, a loose collection of stereotypes, and an underlying tone that women are what’s wrong with the world.
I know several PUA’s who are incredibly decent human beings- they went that route as thirtysomethings with something new to learn about the human race-
it’s the smug and know-it-all folks like TWTTWN who make it a bad game, when in reality, it is simple fun for all involved…
Men and women are sometimes different. The differences are what makes me happy to me alive and a man! I work to the best of my potential when I have someone to please or to impress- male or female. It works best when that person is my sexual partner, and I have only ever been sexually attracted to women.
TWTTWN is a person I would love to pit, but I can’t get up the head of steam- I have to deal with the kiddo not wanting to do her homework…
- take a look at the thread- he has gone from women need 9 months of pregnancy and have PMS to women and men are identical…
WTF?
I understand you need to rationalize your totally incoherent and rather immature posting; I would too, had I typed what you had- but please don’t feel the need to repeatedly insult the majority of us who are simply quoting you and trying to track your multi-mis-quote responses that somehow manage to change your whole message…
LOL. This thread is chock full of hilarity, but this quote is my favorite! 
Don’t be silly, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with *his *writing. It’s everyone else who’s deliberately misreading him because they just can’t accept the profound truth of his words.
Exactly. I figured out long ago that my pipe dreams of being a super star aren’t going to happen so it’s time to live like an adult. That happened without a spouse holding me back! It was just growing up.
Those that do make it in the statistically unlikely fields are very unlikely to have the kind of personality where the wrong woman could “snuff out” their ambitions.
Because our kids are taught by people who typically studied liberal arts in state or community college so they can earn $45,000 a year and have their summers off.
Or most people’s parents are just as dumb, lazy and unambitious as their children.
Or quite simply, most people just aren’t good enough at anything to be Will Smith or Tiger Woods or Bill Gates.
I have more to say on this, but I have to go meet someone for dinner.
Whatever dude. You’re 28. Statistically you don’t know shit. I’m 38 and statistically I have more experience just by being on Earth 35% longer than you. It may not be the same experiences, but they are just as relevant. I feel like Robin Williams is going to bust in here and give the “you don’t know what you’re talking about” speech from Good Will Hunting.
you with the face ]
That said, Stephen King is the most profilic writer of our day, and even Tom Cullen knows the name of his wife.
[/quote]
M-O-O-N. That spells “Tabitha”.
Well, I was aiming more for banter than condescension, so sorry about that. But what you’ve posted elsewhere about your history both before and after your introduction to PUA does seem to suggest that your massive improvement in social skills, and general betterment as a person, was initially motivated by the desire to be more attractive to women. That’s not hugely different from working out because your girlfriend pushes you to. So I’m a bit surprised that you come into this thread laying down the law about how men who improve themselves for the sake of women are weak, when your own history might suggest to you that this is perfectly normal behaviour.
Also:
Maybe. But so does every **unsuccessful **entrepreneur. All the guys who are sure they’re going to be the next Donald Trump once this *next *investment works out, all the guys who turn down better-paid, more demanding jobs because they want to really focus on their music, all the guys who split up from their girlfriends because they don’t want to take time away from their online poker career… they’ve all got people telling them to put away these dreams and focus on the opportunities in front of them and those people are all right. I’m not a big fan of GK Chesterton, but he was on the mark here:
Belief in yourself is great if it’s actually based in fact. Some people will be capable of an honest self-assessment of just how far their talent and drive will get them. Others will not. Being able to accept feedback and criticism from people close to you is not a mark of weakness, it’s a mark of maturity.
Because I said specifically the right woman with the same goals and values can enhance a guys’s life.
So the OP was talking about only 30+yo’s? I must have missed that part. I didn’t realize no one could be successful before 30 or become successful later in life. I guess that’s why politicians and such are all under 30.
- TWTTWN
Yes that’s true. And then down the road I realized that wasn’t the best mentality to have so as I grew my goals changed to be more internal than external. I don’t see what the relevance is or how it nullifies my point…I said that looking back I don’t respect that old self.
If I stole something when i was 25 would I then be unable to ever say stealing is wrong for the rest of my life? Or could I say stealing is wrong, I did it before and I understand that I was in the wrong so now I don’t steal?
Other people’s lack of success doesn’t concern me. I know what my potential is. It makes me sad that so many people have such negative self limiting beliefs about success and achieving their dreams.
- TWTTWN
Why don’t you work to the best of your potential to please or impress yourself? Seriously.
Really? I said men get pregnant and have PMS? The OPs question was asked in gender specific terms so I answered in those at first. As the thread went on I said repeatedly that I don’t think the question should have been in gender specific terms because it can go both ways and should instead be “do people need others to be their best”. I dont see why you’re having trouble following this, I’m not contradicting anything I’ve actually said.
And why are people so upset over my stating a fact that women can get pregnant and have PMS. Like, really? I’m some asshole for pointing out that that might hamper a guy’s plans? Are companies all assholes for giving women maternity leave? For anyone who’s pissy about my stating that women get pregnant are you suggesting women shouldnt get maternity leave? Isn’t it commonly accepted that a woman whos pregnant may require more time/resources/attention and be out of commission compared to an un-pregnant woman? Or are you just looking for something to get angry about so you can tag me as some woman-hating macho blah blah instead of answering my questions?
- TWTTWN
I’d be interested, too, to find out the percentage of men vs. women who have dreams of “making it big” based on an unlikely success in a given hobby or profession, such as acting, being a rock star, etc. You hear about it mostly with men (“My husband came up with this gold-panning scheme to make us rich.” or “He’s come up with this business idea that he says will really take off.”), but I’d guess that almost or at least as many women have the same big dreams that don’t work out - being an actress, a singer, etc.
But back on subject, the idea that women need a man because they have PMS or need stability is laughable. Just an anecdote, most of the people I’ve known who’ve gone “spouse shopping” have been men. A very good friend of mine married the first woman who said yes because he wanted a Leave-It-to-Beaver existence - wife at home with the kids, dinner on the table when he got home from his 9 to 5 job, the whole nine yards. He later admitted that he liked his wife, but they don’t talk much to each other because they simply don’t have much to say. He confided that at the time (and still), the stability of family and the contentment he felt from having obtained this idealized dream outweighed the importance of the person he would have this life with. In other words, it didn’t matter who his wife was, just that she wanted the same things he did and was able to provide this whole scenario. He didn’t want the person - he wanted the package.
They get on fairly well, but there’s certainly a distance there. It seems to suit them both, but the idea is foreign to me. Still, I think it’s a mistake to assume that women somehow seek out this stability more than men nowadays. I’d say it’s about equal.
I think people can compliment each other in many different ways. In my friend’s case, his and his wife’s ideals compliment each other’s really well. They just don’t happen to take into consideration the individuals in favor of the package. It just depends on what you’re looking for and who you end up with. But it isn’t something specific to any gender.