Do men ever grow up?

At least, will my man? Will he ever learn to think things through? Will he ever learn that his actions affect other people, particularly me? Will he ever learn to accept responsibility for those actions?

Sunday I called my mom and asked her for the address of some relatives back east. She said she would have to call someone else to get them, but she’d call me back. I said we’re going out in a little bit. She said, ok, she’d leave a message. Sunday night we get home and there’s a message with the address. I say, Joel, bring me a pen and paper so I can write it down. He says, not now, I’ll save the message so you can write it down later. Fast forward to Monday night. I say, Joel, I have a pen and paper, please play the message so I can write down the address. He says, I can’t, I deleted it. I thought you already wrote it down. I say, when could I have written it down? Last night you told me to wait to write it down today! He says, But you talked to you mother yesterday, I thought she gave you the address then. I say, Joel, she left the message AFTER I TALKED TO HER! She left the message because she didn’t have the address when we talked! You said not to write the address down yet, you wouldn’t delete the message!

Then this morning he packed me a lunch. I put Christmas cards for my co-workers and a present for a friend in the lunch bag. It made for a big, heavy, awkward bag. We went to the car, I sat in front with my carpool partner, he sat in back with the lunch bag and my purse. He did NOT have a lunch bag of his own because he ate his lunch in the car. When we get to his work, he takes MY lunch bag, cards and all, with him. I don’t notice because I am in the front seat with my back to him. I don’t realize it until carpool partner and I get to work. I have no lunch and no money to buy another one. I get to my cubicle and there’s a message from him on the voice mail saying, “I’m sorry, but I’m surprised you didn’t notice the missing bag. I waited for you in the parking lot, but you didn’t come back. I’m surprised you didn’t see me.” So it’s my fault? He was in the back seat, I didn’t see what he was doing! I’m a passenger, I didn’t have the rear view mirror, am I supposed to sense or divine that he’s waiting for me in the parking lot? Why the hell didn’t he just pay attention and remember that he just ate his own lunch and didn’t have a bag??? Let alone one stuffed with cards and a present???

I know these are little things. But everyday is full of these little things. I just wish he’d pay attention to what he’s doing. I wish he’d think things through before he acts. Why can’t he? I hate being disabled, and I hate even more that it means I have to rely on someone who’s so unreliable. He doesn’t need a wife, he needs a mommy. I thought I was up to the task, but I also thought he’d eventually learn and grow out of some of this. After 3 years of marriage, I’m not seeing a whole lot of development. Am I wrong about this? Should I learn more patience? Frankly, it takes every ounce of patience I have not to try to knock some sense into him. I thought I was all right with me being the brains of this operation and him being the brawn, but it’s becoming so frustrating.

Yes, we are in marriage counseling. But it’s hard to talk about my frustration with him when he’s in the room. I don’t like hurting his feelings, and he turns it around into a victim act anyway. “Sorry, I guess there’s just something wrong with me, I shouldn’t have gotten married so when I do this stuff I’d only be hurting myself,” and so on. Jeez. C’mon, you’re pushing 30, you can’t be a little kid expecting mommy to take care of your messes your whole life! At the very least, if you can’t use your brain and avoid these dumb mistakes, own up to them! Accept responsibility! Say, “I screwed up,” instead of “But why didn’t you do this or see that,” and throwing the onus back on me. I can’t follow you around with a broom and dust pan to clean up all of your messes, and even when I try you get indignant. Last night I simply asked if you turned down the heat and you said, “Yes, of course I did, I turn it down every night, you don’t have to keep asking!” But I do! The moment I stop checking up on you, things go to hell! Now I’m going to wonder, since you put the responsibility back on me, if I’m going to have to ask you every day when we drop you off where my lunch bag is. Or make sure you don’t take it into the back seat with you. But if I do, you’ll get indignant again. “You don’t have to do that, I won’t make that mistake again!” If only I could believe you!

Thank you for indulging me. I’m just venting my frustration. We have a counseling appointment tomorrow night. We’ll talk. He’ll make excuses. I’ll cry. He’ll promise to do better. He will for a day or two, maybe a week, then things will go back to being the same and I’ll put up with it for a few more months until I need to vent again. And it’s all my fault.

Gee Kat, I was going to respond with a flip “nope!”, but I’m rethinking that now.

Was he always this way? Did you just not notice it before? Or did you commit the ultimate sin- think he would change later?

My husband is only a child in some ways, in others he is frighteningly grown up. Can’t decide which I like more.

Have fun in counseling. I have found that it only works if both people are willing to work very hard for change. Otherwise, it will be up to you to adjust your feelings so he doesn’t drive you nuts, or change your situation. Bummer but true.

Good luck! :slight_smile:

He won’t change. He’s too good at what he’s doing and from his point of view it works. Why should he worry about how other people are affected by his actions? Empathy is a grown-up emotion.
You have my deepest sympathies, mostly because you need to make a really hard decision. In the words of Ann Landers, would you be better of without him? Just for a moment, imagine that it’s thirty years from now…and Joel has not changed a bit…are you still married?..have you brained him with a shovel?
And to work this out, you need to see the counselor by yourself. Send the counselor a note, or call and ask to have some individual sessions. Push off the blame, saying the counselor asked for an occasional separate interview if need be. Is he using what you say in the counselor’s office against you at a later date?

Do men ever grow up?

Not in my experiece.

On the other hand it is part of their charm. I’m assuming this husband of yours has other charms, yes?

I totally hear where you are coming from, I got one just like it at my house. Only I’ve had mine for 16yrs. And to think, as a young woman I frequently described myself as having no patience!

Men change in ever more curious/strange ways; rarely in anyway that can be predicted or shaped.

Trust me, it’s like pushing a rope, trying to teach them to look after their things, pick up their things, keep track of their things, etc, etc. They will or they won’t ‘get it’ in their own sweet/stupid time.

You would allow, one hopes, your child these absences of forethought. You would forgive that they weren’t perfect. Not even in the ways which might come easily to you. Not even in the ways that make so much sense to you.

Now I know, you are just like all the rest of us, far from perfect, capable of just as many boneheaded mistakes as anyone. These are small, yet highly irritating things, for everyone. But we willingly forgive them in the ones we love.

Repeatedly.
Endlessly.

Just my 2 cents worth. Hope it helps.

My experience is that it’s rare for men to grow up.

One thing, though. If it’s hard to talk about your frustrations (with the counselor) with your husband in the room, see if the counselor will let you talk to him/her without your husband in the room. Some of them will let you do that. It might help.

Okay, first off, I want to take a moment to defend men, or at least to say that this type of generalization is part of the silly and pointless mindset of both sexes. Some PEOPLE never reach a level of maturity past a certain level due to their upbringing, but this is not just a male phenomenon. I know women who fall into this very same category, and it’s unfair to state that it’s just a guy thing. This is just as bad a stereotype as a bunch of men stating that “women are bad drivers” or “girls can’t run a company”; it’s a negative stereotype, and it negatively affects the person making the statement as much as the group of individuals it is lumping together.

Secondly, if you accept the blame for this situation, you are continuing to support his irresponsibility by absolving his role as the cause what you consider to be an unreasonbable situation. Do not accept the guilt!!! As long as you take the blame, he will be getting off scott free, and that’s the worst thing you can do in this situation. If you feel like it’s time to make a stand, then do so, and be prepared for the rough times ahead, but do not yield and continue to “mother” him.

That’s about all the advice I can offer, but I still feel that to make a blanket statement about men “growing up” is unfair.

Ditto. If your counselor won’t meet with you seperately, if this is what you think you need, change counselors pronto. The counselor is not being responsive to your needs. Even if the counselor does not think it necessary/advisable, he/she should at least do it once, if only to cement his/her relationship with you.
The above assumes you have broached the subject of separate sessions with the counselor. If not, do so soon.

Sua

I’m not sure that what you are describing is inherently a “man thing” although it does appear that they are more prone to what it is you are talking about…and we’re talking about selfishness. You are describing the behavior of a an individual that is unaccostomed or unwilling to alter their behavior in order to ease the burden of anyone else. Thoughtlessness does not count, not in a grown up and not all the time. Thoughtlessness is just another signal that you are dealing with the habitually selfish. These people are not thinking of how their actions impact anyone else they are way too focused on themselves. That’s why when you call them on it they either become outraged or contrite without ever doing anything to correct the behavior. Many of these people over the years will learn to mimic the behavior of less selfish people. Some will learn to manipulate others into thinking that their actions are not derived from some hidden adgenda of self gratification. Others will have some life change or event that makes them see the true meaning of their behavior and they may attempt to effect a change.

I’m no expert of course but I’ve been around a couple of years and have observed that people like this very often do not change, not entirely. They may work at the appearance of being more selfless but for the most part their motivation is still derived from their temperment which is selfish. So your husband may with a good shaking up decide that he loves you enough and wants you enough to straighten up his act a little because HE doesn’t want to lose you. But the truely selfish never really do anything that doesn’t serve them in some way.

Needs2know

Amazing how all the experts on male behavior are women, isn’t it? Did you guys post this tripe to balance out the “lezbians” and “dildoes” thread? Is their some kind of Ignorance about the Opposite Sex competition going on that I don’t know about?

Now I’m confused here. Does this mean you’ve have a 16 year old son or that you’ve been married to a man for 16 years?

If it’s the former then I would advise that you not extrapolate the bahvior of an entire gender based on a young man drowning in the high tides of puberty. If it’s the latter then I would suggest to you that it really was a bad move becoming involved with man who needs to be taught to “keep track of their things”.

Either way, you’re generalizing. And it’s pathetic that I need to point that out.

I’m sorry for the inflammatory thread title. I admit, it was to get attention (does that make me a…?), but I did qualify it in the body by asking if, specifically, my man would grow up. My perception of male behavior has been colored by broadcast television :wink:

I do thank everyone for their advice. Yes, I committed the ultimate sin by thinking he was still in a “stage” and would grow out of it with time. He is an only child, while I had a younger sister that was always very quick to speak up when she thought her rights were being violated. Slight hijack–when we were first dating, we ordered a pizza one Saturday night. I ate about 2 slices and the rest disappeared, whoosh, just like that. I asked him how many slices did he eat and his answer was something like, “How should I know?” I was floored! I did manage to teach him that we count, we divide, and we ask if it’s all right to take more if the other person doesn’t appear to want all of their fair share instead of just assuming. I just can’t teach him how to apply that to the rest of our lives.

I do love him. And part of me doesn’t mind looking after him because it feeds the otherwise unnourished maternal instinct. I guess the main reason I posted this is that I was angry that he turns his mistakes around on me. When I first got to work, I was disappointed I didn’t have a lunch. But when I heard his message full of, “Why didn’t you do this and why didn’t you do that?”, I got mad. He resents it when I check up on him, but when he screws up, he tries to pin it on me for not checking up on him. He doesn’t want a mother, but he needs a mother. And he wants a mother, too, he just won’t admit it.

I don’t like thinking about divorce. I don’t hate him, I’m just upset right now. And except for these little things, he’s a good guy. He doesn’t cheat on me, drink, beat me, break the law, steal (though he’s bad, bad, bad with money, but I don’t mind controling the purse strings), or do anything else that seems “worthy” of divorce. Being a big selfish irresponsible kid is a pain, but is it worthy of divorce? My parents were married for nearly 30 years, and I’ve tried to learn from their example. It was hard, they had different personalities, different likes, yet one way they could be similar was they both could be stubborn and selfish when they wanted to. But they were both patient and forgiving. I am trying to emulate that.

I will see if the counselor will meet with us separately, though I am still afraid even that will hurt his feelings. I wonder why I should care, though, when he doesn’t seem to demonstrate the same concern for me.

Basically, I’m married to Homer Simpson and I need to decide if I mind living in the role of the long-suffering Marge. Hmm. Anyone seen the blue hair dye?

Is is fair to point out that I spent the first 30 years of my life trying to be male? :slight_smile:

Aw that’s nothin’. It wasn’t the title or even your post that I had problem with, Kat.

It was the various followups that coughed up the two most perpetuated gender-war fallacies:

  1. Women are on a higher plane of consciousness than men.
  2. If a man isn’t everything you want him to be, you can train him.

I mean it looks like elbows is responding to a post asking “I just adopted a retarded box turtle. Any tips on caring for him?”

No. We get larger and more hairy, our toys get larger and more expensive, but that’s all that happens.

I have done extensive research, and there is not a single man anywhere in the world who has higher than a 10 year old maturity level.

There are no men anywhere who pay all the bills, fix stuff around the house, help out with the kids and maintain the family vehicles.

There are no men who help administrate entire countries, own corporations, fight in wars, and operate million dollar pieces of equipment that move at hundreds of miles an hour.

There are no men who are brilliant spirutual leaders of millions of people, and there never have been.

Good thing women do everything with their high levels of maturity and superior intelligence, otherwise we would all be totally fucked.

I am so glad that as a man I have utterly no responsibility in the world at all, and that everyone understands we all have the minds of children.

Whew. And here I was worried about what I was going to do with my life. Now I know I can just sit in the dirt in the back of my mother’s house and play with GI joes and Legos.

Woo hoo!

Word.

By the way Lex, have you seen my “things”? For some reason I can’t keep track of them.

ROTFLMAO, Alphagene. :smiley:

As for the OP, I think that your man in particular needs to grow up, but it’s not true for all men.

It seems as though you baby him in a lot of respects, though, like handling all the money. It’s possible that this leads him to think that he can be irresponsible and you will clean up after him.

This should be someone’s sig line. :slight_smile:

Lexicon, I feel myself being pulled into the Twilight Zone as I type this, but you are truly an enlightened individual.

Aphagene, ditto. And on your followup to Gr8Kat’s second post. I agree COMPLETELY.

Gr8Kat, I feel real empathy for you. My parents are locked in a similar situation right now, although I don’t think either one has as many hangups/problems as the man you describe. It sounds like he truly is immature, and just going off what you said I can see why you are so frustrated. You’ve got several options:
1- Learn to live with him as he is. As you’ve admitted, you should’ve made up your mind on thes before you married him. But its not too late now. You’ll have to swallow a little pride though, and that can be real tough.
2- You can leave him. Not something I would recommend to anyone, but for some it’s the best way out. The question(s) you should ask yourself before you do such a thing though are: will there be someone to take his place? Can I get by on my own financially, socially, emotionally, etc?
3- Keep trying to change him, and prepare for the long haul.

You sound like an intelligent person with a legitimate beef. Good luck.

Do men ever grow up?

Come on.

Does the Pope shit in the woods??

My son informed me that his ‘resolutions’ this years are to
1)be nicer to his brother
2) help me with more stuff, like cooking and groceries. (he already loads/unloads the dishwasher, vacuums sometimes, keeps his room tidy, well, mostly tidy, helps make the beds sort laundry, bringing in the groceries out of the car, etc - most of it without being asked or reminded…

He is nine years old!

Dont blame the man if he never grew up, blame the momma. You cant fix a man anymore than you can fix your best friend… you have to accept them, faults & all. If the faults are greater than you can accept, run for your life.

Thats not to say that with improved communication, behavior patterns cannot change: "Husband, I feel like you dont care about my feelings when you ‘whatever’. I would be happier if you didnt do ‘whatever’."

sometimes it doesnt work:
Me:“Shitboy, when you dont come home from work, and I have to scramble to find a sitter so I dont lose my evening job, and you dont call to warn me you wont be home, it really stresses me out, because they YELL at me for being late.”
Shitboy: “Stop trying to control me.”
Me: “I dont want to control you, just please call me if you wont be home, so I can get a sitter and make it to work on time…”
Shitboy: “There you go again! You nagging shrew! get the fuck off my back! I am going to my mothers for a break.”

It didnt matter what counsellors said to us, or how many time I tried to talk to him about it, that behavior was never going to change.

In any relationship, there is a limit to how much you can stand.

Good luck to you Gr8kat, I hope this works out for you. :frowning:

It always seemed to me that women were the immature ones…spending hours primping in front of mirrors…getting upset and throwing fits when things don’t go their way…gossipping like children about their friends behind their backs…there ARE a few exceptions, but they appear rare.

uh oh…