Boobs are too big? Is that a reportable offense?
It’s not the she didn’t remember, exactly, it just didn’t make any particular impression on her. To me it was “that time I screwed up my courage and asked her out”, to her it was “that time he wanted to hang out”, same as all the other times we hung out, had lunch, or whatever. Lends a certain credence to her claim that it wasn’t intentional.
Let’s see. Went out with one woman for a bit in '04. I can’t say we were perfect together, or that I was head over heels, but we had some good times together. The company I was working for sent me to Europe for three months. She dumped me by e-mail. Nothing like walking around Paris on an overcast November day after you get a message like that.
And then there was the woman I already mentioned a couple years ago. I really was falling for her. She also sent me an e-mail, details below. Sometimes I really hate e-mail.
Can I give you my third answer in eight years?
Not trying to dwell on it, but it did seem relevant to the thread. Just seems like one of those things that’s utterly inconceivable for anyone but me.
I suppose I’m cursed with a memory like Fuzzy’s, can’t help but remember the failures with the successes.
I wouldn’t say it was a horrible breakup. She sent me a message that said there was an illness in her family and she had to put dating “on hold”. Did she literally want to put things on hold, was it her way of sparing my feelings, or did she hope I’d try to persuade her to stay together? That was more than a year ago. We’ve traded some nice messages on Facebook recently, maybe I’ll have the chance to ask her someday.
Read the post again where I told the story. I was tired of not being noticed so I decided a grand gesture was in order.
I might add that it’s not just the objects of my affections[sup]*[/sup] that seem not to notice, but family and friends as well. I hear of parents who ask their children who they’re taking to the prom,[sup]+[/sup] when they’re going to settle down and have kids, etc. Does that really happen? My parents literally never mentioned anything like that to me, ever. It seems not to have dawned on them that I might desire a romantic relationship in my life.
- Not a great turn of phrase, comparing someone to an object (especially in this thread), but I couldn’t really think of a better one.
- Not to bring this back to high school, I hope. That is when parents are still more involved in our lives.
I don’t think I’m holding out for perfect. I couldn’t define or describe that sort of perfection even if I wanted to. Sometimes it’s the stuff I’d never have thought of that turns out to be what’s fascinating and attractive. I just want someone that I’m happy to be with (and vice versa), that I look forward to seeing, that brings out the best part of myself.
I would also like to point out that when a good guy asks why he is unattractive to women while bad guys are attractive to women, replying with, *“You have such an entitled attitude, you think you **deserve **a woman!” *is something of a non sequitur, unrelated, distraction/off-topic argument that doesn’t address the question at all.
To use an analogy, it’s like as if someone were to question, *“Why is it that people who don’t have a college degree and don’t have certifications in engineering are able to get hired for this engineering job, and I do have a college degree and do have a lot of relevant certifications but *cannot *get hired as an engineer,” *and then someone retorts, *“You have such an entitled attitude, you think you **deserve **a job!”
*
I understand. That’s starting to make a little bit more sense now. So you knew each other for a while before that and had done things socially one-on-one before? Like 5 times? 10 time?
If you have to, sure. Would you ever try something like speed dating? I did it once when I was single and I loved it. And a lot of what I liked about it, I think would be a great experience for you.
You get to meet 9-12 women in one night, every single one of them who completely understands you’re there looking for romance. And if you hit it off with them, your next move is a date. No dilly dallying having non-romantic lunches or hanging out.
There’s opportunity to be rejected a lot, but at least it won’t be women failing to notice you’re even interested, which is clearly really painful to you.
She was sparing your feelings. You should move on to a new prospect.
If you meet a single woman, she’s going to size you up pretty quickly. It’s just what most of us do. I say us meaning people. You shouldn’t feel guilty or ashamed for taking things slower, but practically speaking you need to realize that’s what most people do.
You haven’t actually said this, but I’ve heard it occasionally - “I like to get to know a woman well and make sure I like her before I ask her on a date.” Sorry, but that’s *why *the rest of us go on dates. You want her getting to know you in a candle lit restaurant after she spent a few hours picking out her outfit and painting her nails. Not while mixing creamer powder into her K-Cup coffee under a fluorescent light.
You need to make an unambiguous gesture early because a grand gesture late isn’t likely to succeed. Considering you worked together, and had hung out together, she had probably already decided she wasn’t interested romantically.
By the way, when people use that obnoxious term “friend zoned”, whether they realize it or not, they’re euphemistically saying “romantically rejected”. It’s obnoxious because a lot of men talk about it as if the woman is doing something wrong to them, but women get to make decisions too.
It’s possible there’s nothing you can do about it with any particular woman, but the only thing you can really even try is to make your intentions clear immediately, before she’s already made up her mind about you.
I met my wife on a blind date, but most women I dated, I met once or maybe twice before our first date.
It sounds like they’re just not assholes.
The trouble with your analogy is that we have accreditation bodies like ABET for engineering degrees, we have a PE licensing system. We have groups that define criteria for relevant certifications. None of that exists for Nice guys vs. Bad Guys.
Do you think you’d be acting entitled if you were angry nobody would hire you with your unaccredited engineering degree and the Velocity[sup]tm[/sup] Certificate of Engineering Excellence? That seems like a more apt analogy because “Nice Guys” are the only ones saying they’re such a catch, and I don’t even really understand why they feel the need to shit on other men as “bad guys”.
Even though I agree with your overall point, Fuzzy Dunlop, your “counter-analogy” is not quite apt either, in the sense that plenty of “Nice Guys” are consistently told by family, friends, and acquaintances that they are in fact a catch and that they’re “bound to find someone soon.” Now, of course, neither friends, family, nor acquaintances are a nationally-recognized institution capable of issuing Certificates of Niceness, and as such the issue that you brought up still remains - but I think it is highly unfair to compare the reassurances of family and close friends to a completely unaccredited degree in terms of “expected predictive value.”
People (whether rightfully or not) expect sentiments such as “you’re a really great guy!”, “there are plenty of fish in the sea!”, and “it’ll happen when you stop looking for it!”, etc to be something other than empty flattery and worthless reassurances, which is why it is so painful when that is how they turn out.
The real issue, in my opinion, is not that “Nice Guys” feel dejected and hurt by continued lack of romantic success, nor is it necessarily that they feel they deserve a relationship - after all, who can really be faulted for thinking they deserve to be happy like everyone else seems to be? The real issue is how they assign blame for their current situation, in the sense that projecting said blame externally and painting other men as “bad guys” and women as “bitches, etc” is vile and counterproductive.
I would also like to point out that in this discussion the notion of some men being “bad guys” has for the most part been dismissed, but some men genuinely do fit that definition. If a man is physically abusive, verbally abusive, etc., then it is quite reasonable to call that person a “bad guy.”
In this thread, people have said that nice guys only consider “bad guys” to be “bad guys” because they are upset that these men are attractive to women and they aren’t, and so the nice guys consider any man who is successful with women to be a bad guy, but there is sometimes a grain of truth to the nice-guy claims: Some men really *are *bad guys. And some of those bad guys really *are *popular with some women. It’s not an invalid claim.
But they are not attractive because they are bad, at least for the majority of women. They are attracted to the qualities that often correlateness with “badness”–like swagger and fearlessness. And this is hardly a “women” thing. Guys are attracted to alpha males too. What else can explain Trump’s popularity?
But even if it were true that women find “bad boys” attractive, I don’t know how you would like them to respond to you pointing it out. Why wouldn’t they just say the same thing that men say when women try to guilt them for being attracted to slender women? “Sorry, I like what I like.” And if a woman isn’t having a hard time finding a dude that meets her standards, then what impetus does she have to change?
I sometimes hang out at a subreddit for women who are the “nice guy” equivalents. They are not looking for “bad guys” or guys who are more assertive than they are. They are looking for guys who can overlook their obesity, bad acne, and mental illness. In other words, they don’t blame guys for being attracted to women who aren’t like them since they fully appreciate where they fall on the “attractive mate” spectrum. There is a ton of resentment, but it is usually directed at themselves.
If a stereotypical “nice girl” approached you for a date and you rejected the offer and then she turned around and tried to guilt-trip you about your standards of attraction, how would you respond?
You know, I think I’ll need to modify my earlier answer on this. **Fuzzy **is on to something.
When I think about it, I’ve most certainly had friendships where doing something like you described might not be taken as asking the person out in a romantic sense. With one very good female friend in particular, I often made “romantic” gestures as jokes. But we knew each other well, so she got the joke.
Although, that *was *a pretty odd friendship. Let’s see: Go on “romantic trip” to secluded retreat? (No actual romantic intent.) Check. Frequent physical contact, initiated by me or her, depending? (No actual romantic intent.) Check. Just hanging out a lot? (No actual romantic intent.) Check. Spending nights in same bed? (No actual romantic intent.) Check.
Point is: It must have looked pretty weird to an outside observer. And if I, hypothetically, suddenly had tried something genuinely romantic with her, there is probably no way in hell she would have noticed the difference.
Not saying that your example is anything like that. But, depending on your existing dynamic, it’s certainly not impossible that flowers and date invitation could be misunderstood as falling within “joking/normal”.
My example, there, BTW, is just the kind of situation where my “nice guy” tendencies might have gone completely ballistic. It’s like a perfect storm that never happened, where everything could have gone the wrong way, but never did. The reason was simply that I genuinely never had romantic feelings for this particular friend.
The friend zone can be a very good place. Ah, happy times… Anyway, I digress.
Although we did hook up eventually, very briefly, many years later. Much to my surprise. But that’s not important right now.
I’ve also found myself in plenty of “date” type situations where there was no date going on. Movie, play, coffee, dinner, sleepover. You know, platonic friends *do *do these thing together, completely innocently. The occasional misunderstanding of intent and motive happens in such contexts, I’m sure.
(Yeah, I know: It sure is easy to figure out! Piece of cake, really! Like bicycle repair! ;))
Yeah I agree that’s a valid point. I may have come on a little too strong in my analogy.
Trust me, I know all about those bad guys. That’s my wife’s ex-husband to a tee. His abusive behavior still has a negative influence on my marriage and he’s been completely out of her life for years.
I can relate to how frustrating it must be to be unhappily single while someone like that has an attractive and lovely partner, too. But honestly, don’t worry about those guys. It won’t help any. You don’t need to be a bad person to succeed with women. When you frame the discussion as nice guys vs bad guys, you’re ignoring the vast majority of us happily coupled men who aren’t bad guys.
Just try to be more like us and don’t worry about how there are physically abusive men who still manage to have girlfriends. There’s nothing productive to gain from that analysis.
I’m sure it happens, but my close family members have certainly never showed any kind of interest in my romantic affairs. And if they had, I think I would have been creeped out.
When they’ve met my romantic interests, they’ve acknowledged their existence, but that’s about it.
Basically, no asking, no telling. Which I’ve always been fine with. It’s none of their damned business.
Fuzzy Dunlop, I don’t want to come off as harsh here, so apologies if that’s how I end up sounding.
“… don’t worry about how there are physically abusive men who still manage to have girlfriends. There’s nothing productive to gain from that analysis.”
Look, I think I know where you’re coming from. I know that you ultimately mean well when you say this, but it’s simply not a useful sentiment. Think about it this way:
Ultimately, to some extent, a relationship requires that someone adjudges you, as a person, to be worth spending time on. So, now we have a situation in which someone who (whether rightly so or not is effectively not relevant) believes themselves to be a pleasant, kind-hearted, well-meaning person feels they are consistently judged as “not worth investing time in” whilst watching wife-beaters, deadbeat dads, etc manage to become husbands and fathers in the first place.
Now, the rational response here is to acknowledge that relationships are not, on the whole, an assessment of your worth as a human being, and that not having found somebody that wants a relationship with you doesn’t mean you’re human garbage. Humans, however, are irrational to the point where one could claim it is inherent and not be far off base, and so a lot of people will respond by either externalizing the fact that they are lonely whilst Bobby Beatshiswife gets nookie (“women don’t know what they want”, “you have to be an asshole to be attractive”, etc), or they internalize it (“There is something terribly wrong with me”, “Even though I’m generally kind-hearted and well-meaning, I’m clearly a less worthwhile person than Bobby Beatshiswife”, etc) and interpret it as evidence that they, as people, are somehow deficient.
This in mind, when you exhort people to just go ahead and “don’t worry about it”, you might as well be telling Lt. Dan to not worry about his missing legs. People are going to worry about whether their consistent lack of romantic success is a reflection of some sort of fundamental deficiency of character - and even though you mean well, when you, from a position of being in a fulfilling, long-term relationship, tell people not to worry, you’re going to come off as patronizing and out of touch.
I can’t speak to your experiences, and I’ll admit I’m someone with a lousy memory, but I only remember ever telling someone they were being flirted with once. I can’t even imagine bringing it up under most circumstances. (The one person I told was someone I was dating.)
Your story is a funny story (and, yes, I know it’s very painful for you, but “funny story” genuinely is another way looking at it. Tragedy plus time equals comedy.) … But, oh man, you’d be surprised.
I had this happen, just as a random example:
Getting to the making out stage with a lady. (BTW, which “base” is that? We don’t have baseball where I live. I’m in Europe. Or is the “base” thing even a real thing? Anyway…) Asking her: “How about we go to place X together at time Y?” Only for her to say: “Can I bring my boyfriend?” Me: “Who? WTF?” Her: “You know, that guy you met.” Me: “The one you called your ex?” Her: “Well, he’s not *really *my ex.”
Threesome invite, or total clueless clusterfuck? Not entirely sure. But let’s be realistic, most likely the latter.
That is something of a theme, BTW: “I broke up with X.” “Interesting. How about the two of us go out?” “Well, I didn’t *really *break up with X.” I’ve actually had that a couple of times. What I am supposed to learn from that? Heck, I don’t know.
Also, in general, as we’ve already talked about: A number of very roundabout and very vague rejections. That seems to be par for the course. After a date or two, the lady suddenly has to wash her hair, care for her pet hamster, visit her granny at the hospital, file her taxes, or something, every weekend from now until forever.
I have a name for it in my mind, as shorthand: The “call me after Easter” rejection. One early roundabout rejection was: “I’m busy until Easter. Call me after Easter! We’ll get together then.” I call her after Easter. “Oh. You actually called me? I thought you would have moved on to someone else by now. Um, gotta go, bye.”
The real problem is that nice guys don’t have yeyo for cupid.
To ramble on for a second:
See, ladies really don’t want to hurt your feelings. With the result that they end up hurting your feelings. Someone may go a surprisingly long way with you, simply in an attempt to “not hurt your feelings”. Multiple dates. Physical things. Heck, anything up to actual sex. Then they panic, and have to wash their hair forever.
It’s very, very easy to get upset, angry and confused by it. Don’t. The world is just like that. Maybe I should have a name for that, too. The “I know I gave you a hand job, it doesn’t mean that I actually like you” rejection.
Again, that’s *their *bullshit. I can’t, and shouldn’t, be upset or angry about it. And I don’t have to be. Being upset and angry is *my *bullshit. I can change that.
I had a crush on Bob, and we hung out all the time. Then someone told me Bob liked Beth, not me. I ignored this. Then Bob told me that it was true Beth was First Girlfriend, but said that I could be Second Girlfriend, in case things didn’t work out with Beth.
Now, granted, this was in second grade, and it’s all very funny now. But I think a lot of people really are stuck at this level of socializing and sophistication. You will encounter a ton of childish, selfish people in the world who think nothing of making the most outrageous demands and statements. Heck, maybe it makes sense as a strategy, since if you don’t ask, you don’t get, but still. A lot of people are twits, at least about some things. There’s no big message to take from that about romance, I think.
Have you ever heard the quote or aphorism, “Be kind; everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle”?
Women in abusive relationships are not in them because they think timid men are even worse. There are varied and complex reasons that I won’t pretend to understand, but they’re their own issues that they hopefully will work through some day. Plenty of women have never been treated kindly or don’t believe they deserve to be.
So I’m not suggesting you ignore it because it’s the rational thing to do, I’m suggesting it because it really doesn’t have anything to do with you.
We all get rejected. You’ll have plenty to feel bad about when you’re rejected by women who actually know you. Don’t torture yourself by feeling inadequate because of women whose radar you are not even on.
I am unsure as to why you assume I was referring to myself. I have plenty of issues, personally, with feelings of inadequacy, but they have very little to do with the romantic sphere of things.
I was simply trying to explain that “don’t worry about it” is decidedly unhelpful. Understand that people are going to worry about it (and telling people to ignore something because “it really doesn’t have anything to do with you” is, in fact, asking them to behave rationally) whether doing so is justified or not. “Don’t worry about it” comes off as dismissive and patronizing to people who are struggling with this sort of thing even if you are fundamentally not in the wrong for saying it.