Maybe nothing at all. Sometimes, weird shit is weird, and that’s where it stops.
As I said, for me, something (well, a variation on that something) usually has to happen three times before I pick up something from it.
If you’ve got one tree, well, that’s a tree. Hang around and see if there may be a forest going on. There may or may not be.
It hasn’t for me, either. Well, not one big one that fixes everything. But it has led to some micro-epiphanies of local relevance.
So… that’s where I’m at.
I did say that advice can seem contradictory, but isn’t necessarily, and that this will become apparent in a practical context. And I’m sticking to that.
Here’s something I’ve said that looks contradictory:
a) For a man, being more assertive will lead to more romantic success.
b) Women in our society, often, aren’t wallflowers. They are also assertive. They don’t sit around waiting to be picked up by assertive men.
Apparent paradox: If b is true, surely a isn’t necessary?
Solution to apparent paradox:
The kind of guy even an assertive woman finds attractive, is often (nothing is always the case, so it’s just a rule of thumb) a man that is also assertive.
in this case, luckily for me, the issue is simple enough to be explained right away. But even this will make more sense in a practical context. It… looks different, plays different, makes more sense, in the world than on the page.
That’s a really rough example. Sorry to hear about that.
Did this women seem like a typical woman? Any indication she was on the spectrum or was completely incapable of reading social cues?
Because barring that, it seems pretty clear to me that she was completely aware of your romantic intentions and asking to bring a date was her way of rejecting you. So I don’t mean to minimize your pain from the rejection, but if you want to understand what you were supposed to learn from it, it was: Most women are really loathe to reject men in a very direct way. It’s partly because they’re nice people and they don’t want to hurt men. It’s party because it’s personally uncomfortable and being so oblique about it is easier on them.
To be honest though, when people say to get out there and learn the ropes, we’re kind of hoping you get a little bit further than immediate rejection. The further you can get the better opportunities there are to learn about women and dating. When they say no from the get go there’s only so much you can learn.
Interestingly, this kind of makes them “nice” rather than nice. 
Well, not really, there isn’t malicious intent. But it does confuse the fuck out of clueless men, which is rarely if ever beneficial.
There is another lesson from that: When you interact with people, and weird shit happens, sometimes it’s not because you’re clueless. You may be doing fine. Maybe they’re clueless. Maybe she was looking to set up a threesome, and didn’t have a clue how to do it.
Which, at the risk of sounding like a broken record here, is another reason to gather more data before drawing conclusions. It’s really hard to draw a chart from one data point. You can speculate. But that’s about it.
BTW:
If you read the thread more closely, you’ll notice that much of the “blatant” flirting under discussion was in fact flying so far under the radar, and was so well camouflaged, that it would make a stealth fighter blush.
“How could I not notice? She was speaking in code and ignoring me completely! I was so blind.”
Um, you didn’t notice because, as far as I can tell, it was impossible to notice unless you were psychic. OK, not every example in that thread is like that, but much of it is.
I *hated *this exact type of behavior when I was single. I was rejected by a couple women who were direct and clear, and I really appreciated it. Usually it was very confusing from my point of view.
On the other hand, resenting women for it, or failing to understand it, or misinterpreting it, or complaining about it to your friends about it, doesn’t help any.
It doesn’t.
I’ve certainly come to realize that I can only work constructively with my own bullshit. I can improve me. Other people’s bullshit is… well, it’s kind of their problem. I can’t fix that. And bitching about it, while sometimes cathartic, doesn’t help any.
(Although I can tear certain posters called AHunter3 new assholes on message boards, in an attempt to fix their bullshit, if I think they have it coming. Hey, I’m no stoic. Or perfectly consistent. But I do claim a case of apples and oranges here.)
However, I do notice other people’s bullshit, see patterns, take notes, and find ways to navigate it. It is something that needs understanding, too.
Interpreting it right and understanding it is key.
And I think it can be a good thing to at least recognize that the problem isn’t always me, even if the results get wonky. I tend to take the blame for everything, intuitively. But in Robot Arm’s example, I can’t see that he did anything wrong. He did everything that he was supposed to do. The result was wonky, but that can happen.
Not at all. We’re still friends, in fact (we play Words With Friends, it’s my turn). We live on opposite coasts now so I haven’t seen her in ages. She dated a couple different guys after that, been married about 17 years now.
I asked her about that a couple years after the fact. She didn’t even seem to remember it clearly, but said it wasn’t a roundabout rejection. I believe her.
Suppose you’re right, though; when do you think she figured it out? Did she know instantly that I was asking her out, and the e-mail thing was pre-planned, or did she figure it out in the intervening two days and this was her kind way of getting out of it? If it’s the latter then that’s pretty much the same as if she was sincere; I went totally unnoticed when it mattered.
I’m not learning much, I guess. Haven’t noticed any particular patterns revealing themselves. Each attempt is a new and unique foray into the world of frustration.
You know, I honestly find that hard to believe. I mean, maybe I should take your word for it. But you don’t think you’re exaggerating? Or not getting enough data? How often do you, for instance, ask people out? If it’s once in a blue moon, it’s too rarely. How many relationships have you been in? If it’s two or fewer, you’re not supposed to understand anything yet.
So many posts in these threads sound like me twenty something years ago. It looks like things haven’t changed. The problem I see is that if a person has problems finding romance early on there’s the risk of inexperience making it even harder. That certainly happened to me. It would be easy for me to say “keep putting yourself out there” or “just be patient”, but the fact is that it was mostly dumb luck that I’m where I am today. Would I be alone if I hadn’t gone to the party where my wife and I met? Impossible to know, obviously. In my case, I grew up somewhere I was far from the norm. When I moved, I had more success getting dates but my inexperience hurt. Relationships take work, and having little experience with them at, say, 30, makes it very difficult. When my wife and I met she had been in a relationship most of the time sice she was 16 (she was 28 at the time). I was almost 31, and had been in a relationship for less than a year (two of about 5 months each, 8 years apart). I went over 3 years without a date at one point, and around 6 years without sex. There’s a learning curve, and falling further and further behind can hurt. To those of you who are now where I was, there is hope. To those who are tired of hearing others complain about how hard it is to find romance, remember that what is merely difficult for most can seem damn near impossible for some of us. In my case it would probably be fair to say it was a disability. There are no accommodations for those of us with that kind of disability, and I don’t think there should be. Just as some people with learning disabilities had that one teacher who refused to let them fall through the cracks, some of us with social disabilities found someone who saw something in us that no one else had. I wish I could figure out a way to get decent, kind people who would give anything not to be alone together. There should be a Nobel prize r anyone who could do that.
Much of it was undetectable, yes, but I’m thinking specifically of those cases where the flirting was noticed by someone other than the intended recipient, and brought to their attention afterwards. I’ve occasionally wondered if I’m oblivious to that kind of thing, or whether it just never happens to me.
I should say that my social life isn’t the complete wasteland I may be making it out to be. I went out with someone about 18 months ago and was having a fantastic time. I’m not sure how sincere her reasons were for ending it. I certainly didn’t see it coming.
Robot Arm, probably not seeing a breakup coming is a lot like not being able to read signals that someone is interested. The woman I dated before I met my wife said she was giving signals she wanted to end it, but it would have been less painful if it would have happened more quickly. Of course I didn’t notice the signals that she wanted to date me either.
I’ve always had an amazing memory and I have a difficult time assessing other people’s crappy memories. I’m often completely nonplussed by what other people manage to forget. So if you really think she didn’t even remember it, maybe you’re right.
Supposing I’m right, I’d say she instantly understood your intentions. Flowers on Valentine’s Day are not a friendly gesture. If you invited her out on a date in isolation I’d be willing to leave open the possibility that she misunderstood, but coupled with the flowers on Valentine’s day I say it’s completely implausible.
It’s really impossible to say though. She could’ve known instantly and felt uncomfortable while she was agreeing. She could’ve been so bewildered by the unexpected overture that she wasn’t thinking straight. She could’ve been really oblivious and a girlfriend needed to point out that it was obviously a date.
It’s even remotely possible she really didn’t understand that it was supposed to be a date.
Like Martian Bigfoot says, you can’t go into this assuming you’re the only one who is bad at it, or who is confused or confusing, or anything at all.
In fact, what I think you should take away from that whole nightmare is that a man buying a woman flowers on Valentine’s day and inviting her on a date is completely crystal clear that it’s a romantic overture. If she honestly didn’t know, it’s her issue not yours. You should feel confident that any woman would understand your intention and respond accordingly.
Personally I think the flowers were too much for someone you’re not actually romantically involved with, but that’s not really the point.
I’d love to hear from any woman doper who can honestly say a reasonable woman would’ve failed to understand your intention. I mean, I can think of scenarios where she wouldn’t. If she was 30 years your senior and interpreted it as a thoughtful gesture. If she was married and thought it was an awkward crush and you had no intention of her taking it seriously. But an age appropriate single woman? She should have known what you had in mind.
Have you had any success? What are your top 3 romantic experiences in terms of longevity and intimacy?
There’s more to it than that. There has to be. This is not Musical Chairs, I won’t just grab the nearest single woman so I’m not one of those lonely souls still standing when the music stops. The relationship is a means, not an end; a chance at some sort of inspiration (to receive and to give) that we just can’t do for ourselves. I’d rather be alone than as a couple making each other miserable. It matters.
Crack that nut and you really would deserve a Nobel Prize.
Look, there’s no way to know. But if she didn’t know you were asking her out when you a) gave her flowers on b) Valentine’s day and c) blatantly asked her out, there’s not much you can do. Even if if you went totally unnoticed, she should still have noticed the floating flowers that invisible you were carrying, and the disembodied voice asking her out.
Why are you dwelling on this, anyway?
Heck, dwell on this instead. (And yes, that part, not the rest of that paragraph.) Maybe I’m less of a masochist than you, but that’s what I would be dwelling on.
See, there you have success. (Even if there was a horrible breakup involved, it’s still success. Horrible, sudden breakups kind of go with the territory. They seems to be a normal thing even for… you know, normal people. Plus, otherwise, everyone would end up married to the first person they ever dated.)
See if you can understand and maybe even replicate that one. It’s more productive.
If it were that easy, I have to believe someone would have done it already. The reason people remain alone are myriad, and there are no simple solutions.
I don’t think I’ve brought this up in the whopping buttload of “nice guy” threads; how many of you guys were constantly told how sweet you were? I heard it all the time, to the point where I interpreted it as “you’re pleasant enough to be around, but I would’t want to date you.” Early in our relationship I still flinched when I heard it from my wife. It’s too bad when words that should be complements take on that kind of connotation. I got so tired of hearing “you’re so sweet, I know you’ll find somebody.” Yeah, I did, but it got really old hearing it year after year from well-intentioned people. Maybe it’s better than “face it, nobody in their right mind would want to be in a relationship with you.”
That’s funny. In another thread, I actually compared this stuff directly to Musical Chairs. I was being a bit cynical, but still: If you look at people around you, it’s shockingly random who they end up with. If you think everyone else are holding out for the Perfect Man/Woman, that’s dead wrong.
Not moralizing or giving advice here. It’s just an observation. Other people’s success isn’t always as Hollywood-esque as you think. Most people really do seem to settle down and have kids with the person who happened to stand next to them when the music stopped.
Not saying you should. But people *do *do it. That doesn’t mean that those aren’t happy or successful relationships. They are. Or, well, they can be. People don’t tend to make each other miserable. Or, well, actually they do. Life’s the opposite of a picnic. But… well, I guess you know what I mean.
My relationships so far have been very random. You kind of have to go with the flow on this.
BTW:
Seconding this. You might want to nix the flowers.
Hmm. I think if you keep the level of opening to level below this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa4y1QgTU58 you won’t be perceived by most as overly aggressive.
Now let’s talk about me! I hate rejection. I dread rejection. It puts a pit in my stomach to approach a woman that I’m interested in. Speaking in the past since I’m married. But even today if I had to it would be hard as hell.
Now that’s how I’m wired. Those aspects of my emotions are how I am. I hate rejection. But if you value a relationship and you are willing to look at this completely rationally approaching someone you are interested in is at least a chance of forming a relationship. Hoping for them to approach after a decent interval is practically the same low chance as you approaching and getting rejected. So you might as well approach and make the first move.
Now I don’t know about all this nice guy nonsense to be honest. I don’t know if I really know what’s in anyone else’s head so I try not to assign motive to these folks like that. I think some of what people are calling nice guys may be legitimate frustration at a world that preaches sex/gender based equivalency yet such preaching hasn’t been universally adopted in the date-o-sphere. In other words, there are still influences from traditional gender roles and that may tough for some. Furthermore, some people take other people with what they claim to like at face value.
Think about it, who’s 100% honest about sex and attraction? I don’t know anyone who is. So some men get confused when they hear that women like a particular set of traits than see women going out with men who exhibit an opposite set.
This topic is beginning to make me wonder about the existence of “nice gals.” Do they exist?
There’s a thread: What is the women’s equivalent of the “nice guy” problem?
Thanks for the link.
BTW:
I’m not accusing you in particular of this, but “holding out for the Perfect Person” must surely be up there somewhere on the list of excuses for just not having the ballsack to approach people.
I’ve done it.
“Why don’t you talk to her?” “Nah, her boobs are too big.”
“What about her?” “Nah, her boobs are too small.”
“The one in the corner?” “Her boobs are an ideal size, but the left one has a tattoo on it. So no.”
“That one?” “She has a very tiny personality flaw.”
“That other one?” “She once spelled ‘perseverance’ wrong.”
“How about the one over there?” “I don’t much care for her favorite composer. Look, I’m waiting for the Perfect Person! I’m not desperate!”
Bull. Fucking. Shit.