Do survivors of severe child abuse ever get "normal"?

In My Humble Opinion
21

In my opinion, the only thing my ex-wife’s “therapy” accomplished was on-going validation of her self-identification as a Victim, as being Disabled, validation of her lies, and support of her development into a Sympathy Vampire because of Oh How Horrible Her Life Is.

If my gambit to force her into a hospital and into a psychiatric evaluation had been successful (it wasn’t), my next step would have been to try to bring into question the validity and positive or negative effects of her so-called “therapy”.

If the false legal charges she filed against me had gone anywhere and led to me being forced to carry my own (legitimate) charges forward, I would have been forced to bring up such things as…

“You certified her as Agorophobic and stated that she can never work in public again in order for her to get SSDI. How can you justify this knowing that she likes to spend a lot of time shopping at the Mall of America, a very large and very public place, and that she works outdoors at the Rennaissance Festival - another very large and very public place - every summer?”

But I digress. Sorry. I’ve had more than my fair share of negative experiences with the Psychiatric Profession.

22

I suffered mental and (relatively minor) physical abuse at the hands of my father. I’m not really all that normal at 18, but I have progressed far past what I used to be a little after my parent’s divorce. I used to do all sorts of wonderful things like threatening to kill myself, stabbing myself with pencils, etc. I’ve fully left the more dangerous ones behind (stabbing and self-dangerous threats) but I still have one minor one (biting) that I will do under extreme stress (or medicine malfunction, look through my post history, that’s the first time I’ve ever tried medicine, didn’t like it).

I also have what are, in hindsight, ridiculous double standards. If I admit I’m good at something, I’m conceited, if someone else believes they are Jesus himself, they just have good self esteem, well maybe not going that far, but it feels that way. Like Butterfly if someone compliments me I always feel they have an ulterior motive and it’s to suit their own needs or some underhanded insult I don’t understand, however if they don’t compliment me I think they don’t like me, or they’re mad at me. Oftentimes I’ll meet compliments with a really mumbled “thanks” or some weird self-humbling phrase elevating everyone else or being modest in a way that makes the heads of Mormons spin (no, seriously I have a lot of Mormon friends and even they tell me I’m being too modest).

I’ve never really had any friends since 7th grade (I’m about to go into college, for reference). Well, I shouldn’t say that, I’ve had friends, but I haven’t done anything outside of school with them. I have one who used to live across the street from me, but he’s an exception and he lives across town now so I don’t see him too often. It’s my messed up self esteem twisting something my mom used to say when i was like, 8, about “asking to go to someone’s house is inviting yourself” which makes some sense, but if you twist it enough, makes you lock yourself out of every group activity anyone doesn’t explicitly invite you to (which in high school doesn’t work because most people don’t think you’re interested UNLESS you ask if you can come along).

I’m also really afraid of getting a girlfriend because I’m somewhat afraid of becoming my father and abusing her (I have some minor rage issues that are really only inwardly directed), and if I get married, my kids. It kinda sucks too because I’ve definitely had bad crushes, and ones that I know from people telling me, the power of hindsight, and even strong hints I rationalized away at the time that I could have had 90% of my crushes at the time in a heartbeat. My little voice just tells me it’s a bad idea. I know that’s somewhat normal but I can’t help but think my self-esteem and other various issues amplify it a tad. (Actually I’ve been asked numerous times by acquaintances if I’m gay before simply because well over half of my closer friends are female and I’ve never had a girlfriend. The answer is, sorry, no, I just have no self esteem.)

My tying concept though seems to be I take “don’t be a dick” to the extreme. I know my two triggers by heart now:
Extreme Stress (which triggers lesser feelings it’s only gotten “out of hand” once in the last few years)

Offending someone. I’m so afraid of offending someone, or harming them in any way that I won’t go out and I won’t accept thanks for fear of taking glory away from others. The times I bit myself were all because I made someone sad, or offended them in some way. I can never live with myself knowing I made another human unhappy, and feel an odd need to “punish” myself for it. My hangup really isn’t fear of my father like everyone seems to think at first glance, it’s fear of being my father to other people.

Really the worst part about it is I KNOW most of these feelings I have are absolutely batshit insane, but when it comes down to it I can’t combat that small 1% of me that actually doesn’t believe they’re insane.

I wouldn’t say people like me never become normal, some don’t surely. But most people are at least highly functioning with a good portion of their “issues” put down to odd quirks, some of which may turn out endearing. Not to mention normal is the most fucked up thing you’ll ever see. There are plenty of people without any abuse or rape in their history that are meth addicts, gang bangers, or have less extreme various issues. If we’re going with TV idealism normal, there are maybe 3 people (people in general, not just abuse people) total that are normal in the world, maybe 2 now that Mister Rogers is dead.

23

The thing is, Jragon, although I didn’t go through the death threats and so forth, my adulthood is kind of the 52 year old version of your 18 year old self. And my parents were absolute paragons of good parenting. My point it, no one knows if a particular bad outcome is due to abuse or not. They can look statistically and perhaps (I have no idea) see that abused children have a higher rate of bad outcomes than not abused children. But no one can state that you in particular wouldn’t have been the way you are had you not been abused. Obviously your memories would be different, but the problems might well have been similar.

24

That’s interesting. I have had occasional bouts with agoraphobia but never once was it ever suggested that the solution would be to avoid public places forever. In fact, successful treatment of agoraphobia involves exposure to public places until they no longer cause anxious feelings. Anxiety is one of the easiest disorders to treat, given a willing client.

I’m sorry you had to deal with your ex who was most likely being enabled by her therapist in all her unhealthy ways, sadly this thing happens all too often and with very well meaning therapists.

There is a fine line to walk between minimizing abuse and being defined by it. Therapists who mean well but wouldn’t know an Evidence-Based Treatment if it knocked them upside the head make finding that line a lot more difficult for a lot of people. I have a lot of bitterness too, I’m just throwing in as many caveats as possible to avoid offending anyone on this board.

I was wondering if we were hijacking the thread, but I think this all pertains to the question of whether abusive survivors can ever be normal. It’s important for the OP to understand the vast amount of shitty advice and misinformation and stereotyping that abuse survivors have to wade through, even in the mental health community, to find their way back to sanity. It really sucks that so many professionals are totally clueless, because often so are the abuse survivors, and I know, personally, I was willing to do anything possible to get better–and wasted a lot of years on utter bullshit. Sometimes I wonder if I would have done better completely on my own.

25

When I was a clinician, before I became a professor, the theoretical orientation I preferred was CBT, when I could apply it. I mostly worked with people with very severe schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder, which often doesn’t lend itself to CBT. I’m well aware of the fundamentals.

I was curious as to the reaction of a person with the history of severe abuse but with NO concurrent extreme diagnosis, since, quite frankly, my experience was that no matter what I attempted as a therapist, most of my clients wanted to be left alone in their mental illness. This was somewhat difficult for me, since many of them were not capable of functioning independently on any level.

In my experiences (admittedly with clients who required 24/7 care due to their symptoms), whenever I attempted to validate my clients’ feelings and experiences, I was dismissed as patronizing. If I didn’t validate and recognize their feelings and experiences, I was dismissed as patronizing.

I was simply attempting to ask whether or not people who were NOT at the extreme end of functioning would have the same reaction.

26

As someone who has done it on their own, I don’t recommend it.

My birthday is at the end of June. Therefore, traditionally, at least for me, June is a time of reflection and contemplation of where I am and where I want to be.

In May/June 2000, I was turning 38. I had to admit at that point that I was no longer in my “mid” 30’s, but was now in my “late” 30’s. That time was passing me by. That I was a lonely, bitter, angry man who hated himself, hated his life, his job, his so-called friends, the entire fucking world. And I didn’t want to live like that anymore. I did NOT want to die. I wanted to live. Just not like that. So I set about to change. By myself, because I didn’t trust the professionals to know anything more than I did - from bitter experience and observation of others.

I lost my career (didn’t want anyway at the time, but could sure use it back now), lost my house, married a woman much sicker than I was and then had a very bitter and painful divorce. Lost every friend I ever had along the way.

June 2008. I arrived. I found who I am and I like who I am. I’m happy within.
A lot of pain along the way. A lot of wrong turns, a lot of wasted energy.

But I made it.

However, Externally things are really really bad and I don’t know if I’m going to make it financially. It’s utterly terrifying. But that’s not within, it’s without.

27

I was not a victim of abuse, nor do I know anyone who was the victim of severe child abuse.

Now that you know exactly what my opinion is worth, I think that it is absolutely possible for a person to be a “normal” adult, but I don’t think it’s possible for an abuse victim to be entirely unaffected by previous abuse. It will manifest in some way, like fear of people with certain personality quirks that remind them of their abuser, or intense anger and overreation to witnessing normal discipline, or heavy drinking, or SOMETHING.

Some of the ways people can be permanently affected by child abuse fall well within normal parameters. Normal people can be extremely pessimistic. Normal people can have aversions to certain situations, like claustrophobia. Normal people will sometimes get angry for no good reason, or go through dozens of relationships because they’re afraid to committ, or get drunk and make an ass out of themselves. Stuff like that can all be the result of child abuse, but I’m sure it’s possible to have a deep relationship with someone who was abused as a child and not even realize it, until they tell you.

28

I agree with you, and with what you’ve said upthread. Societal expectations do have a lot to do with it. I am not the only person in my family who has dealt with psychological issues, but it’s kind of tough to parse whether these issues are a result of the perpetuation of dysfunction or bad genetics. Personally I’m going with some combination of both.

I am one of the most psychologically healthy people in my family, and that was true even at my worst. I have specific issues that are clearly the result of traumatic experience, and I have other issues that are shared with other family members of various generations. We’ve got schizoaffective disorder, depression, anxiety, Bipolar, alcoholism, drug addiction, etc. But abuse in my family is generational too, so whether the chicken or the egg came first, I couldn’t say.

I see, I misunderstood the intent of your question and interpreted it the exact opposite of the way you meant it.

I am in awe that you would even attempt CBT with schizophrenic patients, to be honest, and I find it fascinating.

But to answer your question, I believe that validation is probably the first thing many abuse survivors look for in treatment. This is important, to an extent, and I seriously, severely doubt it would be viewed as patronizing in any way to acknowledge the difficulty of what that person went through. I have never interpreted any such offering as patronizing, only comforting. In fact, during the very first year of therapy, I remember just being in constant awe that I wasn’t a total freak for all the issues I’d been having – everything just made sense, and knowing that my reactions were very common for others who had experienced similar things really helped me believe that there was hope I could get better. All my life, I’d believed that there was something fundamentally wrong with ME, not with my circumstances. From this perspective, if my mother shredded our sofa with a butcher knife in a fit of rage, and I was emotionally upset by it, then there was something wrong with ME, not her. I needed someone professional and objective to patiently explain to me that my emotions were a totally normal reaction to the totally abnormal circumstances of my childhood. This was essential, therefore in the context you are referring to, I would say validation and psychoeducation is an essential part of the process.

If you are approaching this issue from a clinical perspective I strongly recommend the book Trauma and Recovery by Judith Herman. It was written for clinicians and is considered one of the foremost authorities in the field. It also changed my life. My husband, who is a doctoral student in clinical psychology, said it is the most emotionally difficult clinical work he has ever read.

29

This is what I think, too. I don’t know why I never bought into it, but I didn’t. Maybe ego, maybe stubbornness, or maybe just early clarity. I always knew it wasn’t my fault. I was afraid a lot, because I never knew what would set it off next, but maybe because there was no clear “trigger” I understood that it didn’t matter what I did or didn’t do; it wasn’t about me.

I think it would be impossible not to be deeply and permanently affected by that kind of abuse, but I also think it’s entirely possible to be “normal.” If I didn’t tell you I’d been abused, you’d never know it, and it’s not like I am living a double life. I’m generally happy, I seem to be fully functional and a reasonably productive member of society, I’m in a stable and loving marriage and I’m a pretty good parent. I don’t have to fight myself to do the “normal” things. I tend to phobias, but while my claustrophobia and my over-reaction to loud noises could be linked to abuse, I find it unlikely that my spider phobia would be – so maybe there isn’t a solid link for any of them.

30

Or if on some level or degree the “abuse” is still happening.

I am 30 years old and I still run to “them” for approval. Or even if I go down my own path, make my own choices; their opinion is still voiced. If not by them, it’s by someone else in the “telephone chain”. It isn’t that some look back and suffer the abuse by memory, some just can’t break the chain. The second I hear or know they are in disagreement of my choices, I automatically feel like a failure.

It sucks when you truly believe you are a good person, and the one, two or so on people that are suppose to build you up constantly tell you that you are a slut. They trash your friends and anyone around you that you care about. My BFF and a really close friend have helped me a lot in the last two years and sadly one of the biggest lessons is, sometimes blood isn’t the strongest bond.

As I was telling a fellow Doper who PMed me something that is related to this.

I have been to therapists. 3 of which I can remember (not sure if there were others when I was younger…) The first one was when I was younger for a my learning disability that I mention in another thread. Second and Third for just everything that has gone on in my life. The sexual abuse (happened with a baby sitter , not my father. Just to clear up any misunderstanding) and the mental and “hands on” approach/abuse with my father.

On the last two therapist I had no problem at all opening up about what happened. How I felt. My negativity. All that happy horse shit. Though when it came time to “Fix me”, I stopped going. Maybe it is my crutch. Who knows. Though seems or feels like to me that without my “baggage” I have no protection of anyone else that wanted to take advantage of me. Meaning, Walls. Barriers. They have protected me this long, why would you choose to be vulnerable?

It’s almost like walking out in the middle of a gun fight without a bullet proof vest. Only a matter of time before you are hit. (probably totally over pitching this example, but you get the idea.)

And I am sure you can all see the sopping negativity in this reply.

It’s all I know. :frowning:

31

I didn’t read a single word of this thread, just the title, and here is my answer,
No, they never get normal, they just date me and screw my life up.

Now I’ll go read the thread and possibly have something more constructive to say.

BTW, there should be a “reply to title” button.

32

And THAT took me three years of therapy and hard, hard work to get past. I suspect part of why that was such a certainty to me–that I deserved it–was in part because that was my reality from before I was two years old. And it was also the only way I could feel like I’d had any control (which of course I didn’t).

So yeah, getting to the point where I knew and believed that what happened was not my fault, I just happened to be the one in his sights was a big deal. Also realizing he did it before, he moved on and did it again, and was in fact getting ready to resume with me as I moved into puberty was quite liberating. Then the whole thing became more like a really bad car accident–terrible results to be sure but not personal in the least.

33

One of the well described sequelae of childhood abuse is Borderline Personality Disorder. Not a mental illness as such, it is more that because of the abuse the person’s world view and coping mechanisms have become so maladaptive that they don’t function well.

Yes, survivors of abuse can be entirely normal and function well in society, but if they don’t, fairly often they way in which they don’t function fits into that particular pattern of behaviours which has been given that particular diagnosis.

Certainly, a lot of my self-harming, attention seeking, “drama-queen” type patients have had very, very abusive childhoods, but this is anectdotal.

34

The opposite is also not true. My sister went through a horrible time (still is) with alcoholism. Was in an abusive relationship. She ended up on the wrong end of a belief in repressed memories. Because she was screwed up, she MUST have been abused as a child and repressed those memories. We shared the same parents, we shared the same teachers - my sister had a pretty functional family life with parents who seldom spanked (I think I was spanked three times growing up), were supportive, and modeled pretty healthy behavior.

Of course, “regaining” those memories of abuse just screwed her up more.

I have friends that came from abusive homes that are normal. As in “hold jobs, have real friendships, don’t need to visit a therapist to function, have healthy long term marriages, don’t abuse drugs or alcohol.” Some of them dress funny.

35

I have a friend who felt the same way you do. She refused to go to therapy, her logic being, “Why the hell would I want to uncover root causes to this or that? I’m not conscious of them now and don’t care to be. I am who I am (functioning, if somewhat fucked up) because I don’t have an acute 24/7 awareness of abuses from my father.”

I see nothing wrong with this. She had a decent job, children, and a general sense of purpose in her life. She had a rather negative approach to life, but it worked for her. The world can’t be all flowers and kittens ALL the time, whether you’re a victim of abuse or a victim of “life in general.” The bad shit is a part of her identity, both the good and the bad.

I think people who are actually NOT functioning probably need a different approach. But if you’re getting from point A to point B, hauling baggage all the while, you are coping. People without a dark history run into psychological roadblocks and do what they need to do to get through life. Those coping mechanisms are there for a reason.

36

And how many of those were subjected to psychological abuse or, more simply, never praised?

My parents never beat me up, but they never defended me when others tried to abuse me sexually, either. Every single time, I had to defend myself. One of the consequences was that I find it very difficult to ask for help, as those times when I needed my parents to help me most were times when no help was forhtcoming. Been working on that.

Myself and Middlebro were never good enough. My high school grades were high enough to get into any school and program in the country, but until we ran into the old gradebooks ten years go, I was convinced that those grades had blown goats; seeing all those high grades was a physical shock. Low self esteem, not from a teacher trying to slip his hand into my pants, “just” from having parents who could go over my failings and mistakes for hours without ever, ever, a word of praise thrown in. I got better now.

I thinks that abuse is like pain; the severity comes in part from some things that are physical observables, but also in part from how well the sufferer can withstand it. Some people yowl like hungry babies if they break a nail, some will bring their own finger to the ER in a baggie with ice.

37

You sound absolutely miserable. You CAN walk away from your family, you know. You really can. I did–and I don’t just mean the emancipation. When my Mom stayed married to one of my abusers and kept pressuring me to have a relationship with him, I just walked away, and didn’t speak to her for over a year. Eventually she got divorced. Now we have a good relationship.

The abuse can’t still be happening unless you are letting it happen, because you’re a grown adult and are responsible for the relative health of your relationships. It took me until I was about 22 to get that. Let me tell you an anecdote.

When I was 20 years old and living in the dorms, my Mom gave me a ride to the office store as she had some stuff to pick up. While I was in the store I guess there was a misunderstanding because she was waiting for me in the car. She came in furious and started yelling at me for being so rude and disrespectful of her time.

‘‘I’m really sorry,’’ I said, ‘‘I thought you were still in the store. I’ll pay for this stuff and be right out.’’

‘‘No way,’’ she said. ‘‘You are going to put every single thing in that cart away, I’m not waiting for you to go through the checkout line.’’

At this point people were staring.

So, while my mother stood there fuming, I, at 20 years old, put every single item in my cart back on the shelves, a process that naturally took way longer than it would have to go through the checkout line, and left with nothing. It was humiliating, and maybe a kind of humiliation you can’t understand unless you’ve had someone completely irrational, unreasonable and violent micromanage your life for 20 years. The whole drive home she screamed at me about what a selfish piece of shit I was.

Looking back, I’m in awe that I ever let my adult life be so controlled by the whims of another person. I am responsible for that day, not Mom.

What I should have done, and what I would do today, is say, ‘‘Fuck that,’’ get my shit and hail a cab.

When I was 12, I couldn’t do that. But I’m not 12, I’m 25, I’m a grown-ass adult and nobody treats me that way without losing the privilege of knowing me. You will be surprised – utterly shocked – how people treat you when they realize you won’t put up with their shit anymore.

38

Firstly, ‘Normal’ is just a setting on a washing machine. I’m not sure I know anyone who is ‘Normal’.

Every life has some instability and life is undeniably messy.

I think that it’s about what you bring to it, people do get through it and to the other side.

I would posit that language plays a huge roll. Those who define themselves as ‘totally screwed up’ will continue to be so. Those who can find their way to define themselves in gentler more positive terms, ‘I hope to, one day, be less screwed up…’, probably have what it takes, inside, to get through it.

There is some truth in that old saw; “Life can either grind you down or polish you up!” Who wouldn’t rather be a diamond?

39

I just wanted to chime in and say how absolutely bang on the nose I thought this was. Normality is severely overrated, IMO.

40

I swear it’s like a brain wash or something, though I didn’t realize how unhappy I was until I started working at my current job. I really didn’t know what it meant or how it felt to have people generally care and worry about you until I met the two people that I frequently mention.

If you search other threads, there are examples here and there of what type of things occurred. Examples. Though it is hard to make a laundry list of all the incidents. And as much as my childhood sucked, he (my father) has gotten better. Or maybe that is because I am not around as much.

I do try to distant myself from them. Moving an hour away. Not talking to them for weeks on end. It’s just hard because they are my parents and at some point they aren’t going to be there anymore. Sure there is anger, resentment, and fear of him at least… though there is a lot of love. I do care and worry about them and they aren’t generally degrading my choices and life all the time…

It’s really hard to explain and ever harder to live with in. How do you love and care about two people that constantly be little you and your choices. And it isn’t just me standing up for myself. I have done that time and time again. It has turned into screaming matches and at one point someone coming at me… they don’t back down and generally when I don’t either… it gets bad… and bad fast… so I just learned to cave in and pick my battles.

Which these days choose not to talk or hang out with them. Though that doesn’t help my sisters from reporting back to them or they (sisters) haven’t opinions of their own. They only way to stop the “cycle” so to speak is to completely write off my family until I learn how to stand on my own two feet, stand up for myself and never to give in. I’m just not at that place yet. With my father working in law enforcement, if I stood my ground and gave him the silent treatment for months and gawd forbid something happened to him and he died…

I dunno. Argh. This is getting way to indepth… Just in short… I think it is going to take my parents getting old and gray and dying of old age before I truly gain control of my life. Sad as it may be.