Do survivors of severe child abuse ever get "normal"?

In My Humble Opinion
41

My heart really goes out to you. When I stopped speaking to my Mom I wrote her a 6-page letter detailing the wrong and painful things she had done, right up to that present moment. I laid it all out there and I told her that, sadly, I would not be able to have a relationship with her as long as she was married to that dude.

Then, I created a mix tape 30 deep full of inspiring songs about taking out the trash and writing unhealthy relationships off. I KNEW it was going to be difficult – and it was, it was VERY difficult, but that mix tape got me through. I don’t even recognize the person that came out the other side of that year–and having a relationship with my Mom again was not hard, because I was no longer dependent on her for my validation. It seems like you are coming around and beginning to see how much better things can be. With time maybe you will be ready to really protect yourself.

42

I mentioned Synchronicity in another thread.

Right now The Heart of the Matter is booming from my iTunes.

I’m thinking about
Forgiveness, Forgiveness
Even if you don’t love me anymore.

I can’t talk to my dad right now. I’m unemployed and every conversation is full of HIS blame and anger about why I don’t have a job and how I’m not looking hard enough and blah, blah, fucking blah. I don’t need it.

Yes, some day they won’t be there anymore. But are they there now? What will be gone when they are? Seriously, think about WHAT will be gone from your life when they’re gone. The chance of Redemption? The chance that all the stuff that hurts you will somehow be repented? When it comes down to it, that is the other person’s choice, not yours. If my father wants to repent of all his shit, I can’t make him do it, I can’t convince him to do it, and whether or not it happens isn’t going to depend on whether I’m still talking to him or not. OTOH, there is some value in NOT talking to him, because it tells him that I think there is something wrong with his behavior and it gives him a chance to think about it.

I’ve known a lot of people who wrote off their parents. While I’m kinda proud that I never did, I can also see that there have been many points where I may have been better off to simply walk away and let them stew in their own shit.

If he died while I wasn’t talking to him, I honestly don’t think it would be any worse than if he died while I was talking to him, because I don’t think that he has it in him to change. And while I’d be disappointed that we didn’t have a chance to talk, it would be more because he never grokked what he was doing to me and not because of any guilt on my part for being out of contact.

If we weren’t talking and he knew he was dying, I would expect that it would be up to him to contact me and ask to talk. I would, even if he didn’t admit fault. But I can assure you that it would end the minute the shit started up again, no matter how ill he was. Dying doesn’t give you a free pass to be evil to people who love you.

I dunno. I can’t tell you what to do here. I can simply suggest that you think about the reasons why you maintain contact, your fears about them dying, and what you’re afraid of in that context.

43

If I might ask… what do you think would happen if your father did repent? Would it make you feel better about all the shit you got handed at the start of your life?

I ask because when that time came, when my Mom actually saw, for a fleeting moment, what she had done to me, and she said, ‘‘I’m sorry you had to go through that,’’ it meant, approximately, nothing.

I don’t mean I was bitter or angry, I don’t mean I really have any ill will (my current therapist thinks something is wrong with me because I’m not angry), I mean it just had absolutely no relevance to my current life. I finally got the thing I had always wanted as a child, at a point when I no longer needed it to make me happy. It was an experience at once sad and triumphant.

By the way, can I just… ((((Group Hug)))))

44

It has taken quite some time and much soul searching, but yes. Probably the most horrible thing abuse has taught me is how to be violent. As I have always been fairly poor and not able to afford the therapy that so often seems to provide relief to those who have suffered, and it has been up to me to come to terms with this my self. Much of my youth was spent sharing my newly learned hate with others. As with all things much of what has been done can never be corrected.

I have seen my way clear to now spend my time and efforts helping others in an attempt to right the wrongs I spent a better part of my life inflicting on others. In my heart I know that all will never be forgiven until I draw my final breath, when my deeds will bear fruit. Such is life, and finally death, when peace will come in what ever form it comes.

Even now I am not always able to overcome what was once a way of life, but at least now I am able to better recognize the error of my ways and attempt to right my heart.

It is still a battle, but one that I know I can win.

I know there is a lesson here, but as with many lessons it can only be learned by living it. Such is life.

45

Probably the way the damage done from abuse has manifested itself in my life is my inability to maintain a healthy intimate relationship. Friends and family – no problem. Introduce sex into the equation and I end up being attracted to jerks who treat me badly. Recently, I dumped another one of these guys, who was more damaged than I am.

And let me interrupt myself for a second and echo the assertion that it wasn’t the abuse that messed me up. It was being told that I was damaged goods and the abuse was my own fault and I deserved it that messed me up. I’m over the abuse. But I’m still not over thinking I should expect people to treat me badly, instead of expecting people to treat me with respect. It’s hard work, identifying that element in relationships and then purging those relationships from my life. I decided a long time ago that I was happier, more productive, and much better off alone rather than hanging around with anyone who was toxic to my self-esteem.

All that said, I was talking through this last breakup with a good friend whose wife is a therapist. I told him that I wasn’t upset about the relationship ending, but I was upset that I’d found myself with that same frigging jerk. I remember saying, “Man, I’ve dated this guy 100 times. You’d think that by now, I’d learn to see the red flags and not even give these guys the time of day. Like, I’d improve my standards after experiencing the same painful situation over and over again. I must not be too bright.”

My friend, wise man that he is, pointed out that my problem could be that my relationship modeling was horrible and the script for who you are and what you think about yourself is written and ingrained (internalized) at a pretty young age. You can identify the areas you need to work on and you can recover from abuse to some degree, but he wasn’t so sure how you re-write your script. In other words, I had learned to be comfortable with certain patterns of behavior, such as nonacceptance, judgment, criticism, allowing others to control my choices. That’s how Daddy was and because I was accustomed to that, it was easy for me to be comfortable with guys who exhibited the same toxic behavior. I didn’t see anything wrong with it until I was all involved and woke up one day realizing that I was allowing myself to be treated like crap again. My red flags go up too late because my boundaries were broken down at such a young impressionable age.

That’s a pretty useful realization. My friend was all concerned, because he wasn’t so sure that a person can rewrite her script. I’m not convinced I can, either, but. I do have enough self-awareness and have worked hard enough to recover that I started looking to other families for better behavior and relationship modeling.

I think the answer is, next time I’m dating someone, I have to ask myself why I feel so comfortable or so attracted to the person. Is it because this person mirrors the behavior of the abusers in my life, or is it because the person mirrors the behavior of the more emotionally healthy people in my life?

Bottom line, I had to take responsibility for my choices and behaviors from the day I turned 18. My sister (and my last boyfriend) are still suffering from the damage done by their abuse because they are still wallowing in victim. My exBF is the master at blaming everyone and everything outside of himself for everything that goes on in his life that he’s not happy about. He couldn’t even see that he refuses to take responsibility for himself; I don’t even think he understands the concept. My sister is so used to being handicapped mentally by her abusers convincing her that she was “less than” or deserved to be treated badly, that she can’t get past victimhood either. She’s terrified to go down the rabbit hole; she thinks the recovery will be more painful than the abuse was. While I found the recovery to be difficult and painful, it’s still better than blaming yourself for some atrocious act that someone else inflicted on you, that you had no control over whatsoever.

In order to get past the victim stage and work toward “normal” (whatever that means to you), my opinion is that you have to accept responsibility for control over your choices. Some people are better equipped to do this than others. I think it’s probably possible to recover completely from abuse and be considered by all accounts “normal” but I think most of us will still suffer some inner demons. Hopefully, the inner demons haunt us less violently and frequently as we self-actualize, learn, grow, and mature. Time heals all wounds, but some things leave permanent scars. The scars don’t have to be disfiguring and crippling, though.

My $0.02. Keep the change.

46

Ah, my child, but change comes from within.

:smiley:

(no seriously, good post. It was just right… there…)

47

Like I said, I’m not talking to him right now because of the same abusive shit, the same constant stream of disapproval, every time I speak to him.

It’s less about changing the past, than about changing the present. No apology ever changes the past. But if they’re genuine, they change everything going forward.

That’s why, to me, hoping for that death bed conversion is useless. What, now you get how much of an asshole you were all these years? Fat lotta good that does anyone at that point. You’re still going to die knowing you were an asshole to your child, every day of his life. It changes nothing.

48

:smiley:

In the e-mail alert that someone posted to this thread, this is the only line that appeared. I was about to come in here and set your ass on fire for being that patronizing…

And then I saw this part. Outstanding!

49

Let me put this out there for anyone who is still struggling with relationships with their abusers that you can’t just cut off because they are close relatives and you still love them.

Can you set boundaries with this person? You know, “I love you, but I can’t get into XYZ topic with you, so if you start up with that, I’m going to hang up/leave/take my marbles and go home.” Or, “When you criticize me like that, I find it very hurtful and counterproductive. I’m not going to tolerate that. If you do it again, I’m going to hang up/leave/take my marbles and go home.”

Know what I mean? I don’t think apologies and repentance go very far either. I have found that boundaries go a looooong way to helping me distance myself from the abusive behavior. I find myself reminding my parents that I’m an adult with judgment and discernment and they cannot control my choices anymore. If they don’t back off, I end the conversation. There’s just some places I won’t go with them, conversationally speaking.

50

There was so much I agreed with and can relate to, but my brain is mush right now. But the part about it not being the abuse that messed you up, I get that. With my stepdad, it wasn’t the abuse that was so awful – that part was actually relatively mild compared to what a lot of kids go through. I have specific issues but I’ve worked through most of them. The worst part was being told I was wrong to talk about it, being told it was my fault, being told I was crazy and it didn’t happen, being told it’s just a part of life, being told I was selfish for not wanting to see him ever again. It was the sense of betrayal by my family. It was the loss of him as a father once I realized that he didn’t really love me. All that crap. It’s almost like the concept of the abuse was more damaging than the abuse itself.

But that’s just not the case with my Mom. She fucked me up but good. :smiley:

51

I hear you. And it took me years to finally understand that being told it was my own fault was a lie.

The difference between me recovering and my sister not recovering much at all was this. I had to make a conscious decision not to allow what happened to me inform and drive my choices as an adult. Sometimes I didn’t realize I was doing it, so sure, I’ve fucked up from time to time. As my friend says, I’m part cat anyway: I always land on my feets. I pick up and carry on and learn from each mistake.

My sister almost comes right out to say, “Gee, I was horribly abused, I’m broken and damaged, and therefore, I’ll never be right. This is just the way I am.” And if that’s always her attitude, she’s right. She believed the lie and she allows herself to blame her shortcomings on the abuse. A lot of abuse victims are unable to move from victim to survivor to thriver. Post-rape recovery sites have helped me a lot with this. (I recommend www.rainn.org for anyone dealing with sexual abuse, incest, rape, molestation.)

I decided that, despite the damage, I didn’t have to subject myself to any more and I could choose to not engage myself in toxic relationships. That choice has made a world of difference in how our lives have turned out.

But I still have faith and hope that, when her kids finally leave the house, she will be forced to focus her attention on herself and get some help. She knows I’m her biggest fan and supporter if that’s what she decides to do. And if she doesn’t, guess what? She’s still my sister and I’m still her biggest fan and supporter. We try to accept each other and love each other in the unconditional way that our parents never did: that’s how you re-write your script. Find a friend or someone you know who loves you. Ask yourself, how do you know if that person loves you? Seek relationships modeled after that paradigm.

52

Classifying my experiences as “abuse” seems like a naive and self-absorbed thing to do. However, I know things might have been worse if not for my emotional detatchment at the time. As a child, it is hard to “not care” about your situation, but I was given an escape in my books and shows. As far as normalcy, I strive to be the in the center of the situational spotlight, but I’m wise enough to know when I’m being irrational about my attention-whoring. My only real scar would be a profound emotional sensitivity that really didn’t spring up until my late teens. Maybe this is due to the ending of the supposed “latent stage?”

Anyway, it’s hard to define normal considering that everyone has something that bothers them. There are those of us who make it a goal to BE normal despite our shortcomings, and I’m beginning to think I should stop trying to work against who I’ve become and accept what I’ve grown into. Can anyone relate?

53

How does the abuse manifest itself in your sister’s day-to-day dealings? Does she inflict abuse on her own children? Is she in an abusive relationship? I’m curious as to how it shows up (other than low self-esteem, which is pretty obvious). What does she mean by “this is just the way I am.”?

54

She’s been in abusive relationships and I’m not too sure about her current husband. I think he’s better than he used to be, but he is still very controlling. She does not abuse her kids at all, but she is not as strict with them, in terms of setting limits and boundaries, as I would be. They kind of run a little wild (they’re not too bad, to be fair, but have gotten into their share of trouble). In my mind, neglect is another form of abuse. She doesn’t starve them or ignore them – again, it’s not that bad. But she doesn’t set an example for them to show them what self-respect looks like and they don’t have limits.

How it really manifests itself is in her outward appearance and how she takes care of her home. She’s morbidly obese and her house is really, really horrible. There are rooms you cannot get into because of the junk piled up. I stayed there last year and almost fell in the shower because I slipped on some slimy mold. Bleh. The pets are nearly completely ignored and nobody cleans up after them. The cat uses any room handy as the litter box, so there’s dried poop everywhere. It’s really gross.

To me, knowing there are no medical issues that cause the obesity, the appearance of her home and herself is a manifestation of tragic self-loathing. She has terrible self-esteem and doesn’t stand up for herself very much. Her younger daughter walks all over her, although she seems to be growing out of that a bit.

I think what she means by “this is just the way I am,” is sort of what the poster above me was talking about. It seems so overwhelming to overcome the low self-esteem and self-loathing that it just seems easier to accept yourself as a broken, damaged individual. I think she believes healing is possible, but so difficult and painful, she’s terrified to try. Daddy’s script of “you’ll never be successful at that,” seems to run in her head. My approach was to try to prove that bullshit. Her approach was to accept that she’ll never succeed in anything she tries, so why bother? Her relationships with her kids and family are just slightly less than healthy and that seems acceptable to her. It was not acceptable to me–I wanted healthy relationships in my life. Or was fortunate enough to stumble upon one that gave me good modeling for building healthy relationships.

It’s really sad.

Anyway, to the poster above… yes, I can relate. I try not to think of this in black and white terms of normal and abnormal, but instead, strive to improve degrees of healthy. If it doesn’t make you feel like a piece of shit, there’s no need to excise it from your life. If it does make my feel badly about myself, I try to work with the situation to change it so that I can feel good about my contribution (to the relationship or whatever we’re talking about). You can’t control anything except your own attitude, which makes a pithy cute sig line, but is much easier said than done.

55

Dogzilla, this ‘I must not be too bright.’ is the very thing I’m speaking of. When Buddhists say you create your own reality this is what they mean. When you say those words you make it so. As you define yourself so shall it be. You need to pretend you are describing the foolhardy actions/nature of someone you cherish, a best friend or a little sister. You wouldn’t say that about her, you’d say, ‘She was foolish in love, but she’ll learn from it…’. Recovery depends upon you being able to define yourself in generous and forgiving terms, warts and all.

One of the things that really helped me to deal with a toxic family was a very small but important thing. (I also moved a couple of hours away to another city, for sanity’s sake, a very, very wise choice, in my opinion.) In recognizing that they were toxic and I couldn’t really stop loving them, I just decided I would be loving them from afar.

I then found photos of them from when they were young, bright and brimming with potential. Before they became the twisted and toxic persons I knew them as. I had the photos matted and framed and hung them on the wall in an almost Chinese honouring of the parents fashion.

I could love these people. In fact, I found I could love these people without judging their actions. And, I found, I could accept who they’d become in a non critical kind of way. My love for them disconnected from their treatment of me or their actions in general, and when it did, their power over me evaporated. I didn’t care what kind of shit they stirred up because I was now outside of it. I could just listen indifferently. The interactions I chose to have with them changed shape entirely. It was more of the same, but I was changed.

This little exercise proved of enormous value to me. They were too screwed up for me to be able to reach any real resolution interacting with them. This helped me to find my own healing and resolution without having to engage them and their dysfunction, very helpful. I call it photo therapy!

56

Oh, I totally agree. I think you’re absolutely dead-on. I meant “I must not be too bright” in an ironic sense, but I found it frustrating that I kept repeating the same relationship patterns over and over again, despite my awareness that I needed to create different types of relationships for myself. It’s difficult to train yourself to expect to deserve respect. As many posters on page one pointed out, when someone treats me well, I am suspicious of their ulterior motive. I don’t trust people and let them in to help me when I need it.

I had to make myself stop that script, and my friend was really helpful with this. He asked me the same thing you just did, to define myself in loving terms. (That’s the trick, isn’t it? Abused kids don’t think they deserve love, so we have to convince ourselves as adults that we do.) He’d keep asking me what I’d learned and I realized that, even though I kept dating the same jerk, I’d learned a new little tidbit about myself and what was important. This last time I learned that I need my partner to respect my boundaries and honor my needs. I guess I could say I’ve been working on boundaries – understanding what that means, setting them, keeping them consistent. Separating myself from another and not taking on responsibility for their choices and their actions.

I wonder if the dysfunctional role we played in our childhood families helps determine how we approach healing and recovery as adults. Know what I mean? Some of us are the Scapegoat, some of us are the Peacemaker, some of us are the Responsible Parent, some of us are the Clown. We all end up in a role that helps the family function to some degree and I think we carry those roles into adulthood. The trick is to learn all the other roles and learn how to change roles to suit the situation, integrating the dysfunctions into a functional, healthy, whole person.

57

Oh my…very sad indeed. Sounds like she could use an intervention. I know it’s hard to be the bad guy when you know what your sister has been through, but maybe she’s overwhelmed and simply doesn’t know where to start. You may have already done so (I know of people who easily slip back into squalor after having their home cleaned up). But she needs to know what she’s doing to her children, and that they could be taken away from her if outsiders knew the conditions of the home. Sometimes it’s easier to clear the mental and emotional clutter when the physical clutter is under control.

I know there are no easy answers. I wish them (and you) the best of luck.

58

I’ve read the posts in this thread, and I’m always awed to see and hear those stories. At the moment, I don’t have anything more to say to any of the posters who have shared their histories, just wanting to affirm my support and admiration.
For the OP - I think that there are some people who can survive severe childhood abuse, and recover so that the uninformed outside observer would never guess about their history. There’s a whole range of responses, or endgames, and some will include what appears to be normal and others will end up with a crash and burn. I don’t believe that severe child abuse will prevent a specific child from having a so-called normal life, but it does make it much less likely.

59

They are 16 and 18. The older kid is there by choice at this point. The younger one is actually the only person in the house who keeps her room meticulously neat – rebellion in reverse, right? I’ve tried to approach her about this, but you know… it’s an eggshell walk. I don’t want to send the message that I don’t love my sister if she doesn’t – literally – clean up her act. Like some of the posters in this thread, she is extremely emotionally sensitive and the smallest criticism hurts her deeply.

My mom and I have struggled with this and struggled with it. We finally decided that unconditional support and love is the best we can do. When she’s ready to get help and help herself, we’re there for her. But, like an addict, you can’t force someone into fixing themselves.

I live 1,200 miles away, so that makes it even more difficult to help her from this distance. I chalk it up to “I can’t control anything but my own attitude, and that includes whether or not my sister ever gets to work on healing herself.” :frowning:

60

My friends who were raised in squalor are much like your niece. Their homes are immaculate and they are VERY angry with their mother for allowing the nine of them to live in a home that frequently didn’t have a functional toilet. Their mother, however, was left to raise them all alone while working 3 jobs. She just couldn’t handle it.