No, dammit. Did you miss the part about conditions in the detention centers becoming much worse with no bill, which was the real alternative here? Does this not matter to “real” progressives or something?
I would have been wrong if I’d said of AOC “it’s all about how progressives will spin the ‘cave in’”, but that’s probably more fair of an assessment than you’re giving Pelosi.
Pelosi is conducting all the investigations that would be conducted for an actual impeachment inquiry, and meanwhile, public support for impeachment has gone from the low teens earlier in the year to the high 40’s. Because she knows how to prep and how to wait for the right time. Apparently that comes with being one of those complacent establishment people.
Yeah, I hear the same sort of analysis from pot bellied amateurs after every major sporting event. You’re just as persuasive. Congrats.
I think you have completely misread what is happening. The “professionals” have made no such decision re impeachment. They’ve filed cases in court to compel subpoena compliance and lawful demands for information. And they’re winning. Sorry you’ve missed all that. I guess it doesn’t suit your narrative about how old guard Democrats are as much your “enemy” as Republicans.
I admire AOC a lot, and kudos to her for calling concentration camps what they are. People who have spent time in concentration camps refer to the facilities at the border as concentration camps. That’s good enough for me.
But I agree wholeheartedly with xenophon41: AOC and the others may be great at messaging, but they are babes in the woods when it comes to understanding the political calculus – which has never been more crucial.
As for the Dems having “no place to go” if it all goes “wrong” in 2020, consider this: What will Dems have in their back pockets if Trump somehow pulls off a win (no doubt with foreign help), they’ve already run their impeachment proceeding and failed?
American beltway journalism absolutely would have blamed the Democrats if no bill had passed. But lets be clear on what AOC’s position was here: “Under no circumstances should the House vote for a McConnell only bill with no negotiation with Democrats. Hell no. That’s an abdication of power.” She argued for negotiation: a position that Pelosi held until she changed her mind.
Without resorting to google what investigations are currently going on right now? If nobody knows these inquiries are happening then they are materially different from an actual impeachment. Hearings are not impeachment. Impecachment is the tool that is used by legislative body levels charges against a government official. “Conducting a hearing that would have been conducted during impeachment hearings” is objectively not the same thing.
And the level of public support doesn’t matter because we all know that Pelosi has no intention of bringing impeachment anyway. It will never be the “right time”.
We are all pot bellied amateurs on the internet. “Just trust the professionals who got us into this mess” sounds the same sort of analysis from pot bellied amateurs after every major sporting event to me. You are just as persuasive. Congrats.
Yes, the House can stay throughout the entire recess if they want – and get absolutely nothing done while the Senate takes its break. Congress is a bicameral institution.
Who said they’re doing nothing? The ugly reality is that for many people, migrants at the border are people who may as well be on the moon for all people care. It’s not an issue that moves the needle. I wish that were not the case, but that’s the case. They’re lucky to get anything, which is what Pelosi’s trying to get across to the progressives. America voted eyes wide open for a racist. The only way they’re going to change their minds is to show them on a personal level that backing the racist candidate isn’t making their lives easier. It’s not the solution to their problems. When they figure it out? I have no idea. But when the moment that it dawns on people that Trump isn’t going to make them rich and in fact may make them poorer, it will take a coalition to defeat him and his oligarch class.
With all due respect, I don’t think you understand what fighting back means in the American political context.
The House has no tools to make the Senate come back out of recess, much less even force Donald Trump to sign on to it. Look, I get it: people are outraged. We’re committing all kinds of moral sins and our 18th Century governmental systems are perhaps too hobbled to withstand another round racist counter-revolution. I don’t know if I or anyone has specific answers on how to put this fractured country on the right path, but it seems to me that pro-democratic coalitions, even imperfect and frustrating ones, are the solution and not the problem. Similarly, compromise is the solution and not the problem.
I don’t mean to disrespect AOC - she’s obviously done more than I have. But I think she should try to expand her worldview beyond her highly multicultural congressional district and understand that a lot of people come from a different world. They might not appreciate that world and its constituents, but whether they do or don’t doesn’t matter because it’s out in the suburbs and rural America where the power in this country lies.
Yes, it is the coalition that matters. Very good. So the Dem nominee needs to be sensitive to this if they want the coalition’s support. That means not agitating AOC et al. by talking down to them, treating them like they don’t belong, and trashing their positions. By doing these things, by proxy they are doing that to their voters. Whose votes they are gonna desperately need in the general. If they want to win.
Kinda feel like spelling this out is ridiculous, but the idea that I’m the one not thinking compels me to do so.
Let me ask you a few questions… do you think Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi can count votes? Do you think she has a) a better understanding or b) a worse understanding of US Congressional procedures and the current positioning of the various caucuses in the House of Representatives than a first term Congressperson does? Than an interested foreign observer does?
Also, do you think Pelosi has the authority to compel negotiation outside of her chamber of Congress, which would be required to send a changed bill back to the Senate? (She does not.) Do you think she has the authority to call the Senate back into session? (She does not.)
Pelosi determined that there was insufficient support among Democrats in the House of Representatives to successfully achieve the changes in the Senate bill that would have reattached the conditions and specifics that the House majority had initially desired. Do you have specific information to contradict this assessment? If not, do you think “the right thing to do” was to assure worsening conditions for detainees by stalling passage of that bill until after the scheduled recess? If so, then please justify that moral calculus, because this pot bellied amateur isn’t seeing it.
…of course they have. The Mueller report handed everything the Democrats needed to start impeachment proceedings right there and then. If that wasn’t enough then nothing Trump and this administration will do will be enough.
That doesn’t negate my point.
LOL.
Strawman. This isn’t my narrative.
We live in a world where the stupidest man on the planet is president. Where America is locking up kids in cages, holding men and women in cells with standing room only are kept for weeks. We live in a world where Trump nearly started a war with Iran, then changed his mind at the very last minute, and the story has completely dropped out of the news cycle the very next day.
There are literal white supremacists making decisions at the highest of levels on border policy. We are in the middle of a world-wide trend towards authoritarianism.
And you are asking me to simply trust the political calculus of people that have been in power for decades and are part of the reason why we are in this mess. You want to pretend that all of this is normal. Trust them. It will all work out. I’m sorry but I have trust issues.
There are experts on authoritarianism who say quite clearly that in their opinion this approach is wrong. Sarah Kendzior said this today:
Can you name anybody?
Remember back in 2016 where we were all running around saying “we can’t normalise this?” Well we’ve normalised this. The madness of this administration is being treated as “business as usual” here.
But the political calculus has changed. Trump & Co have systematically gutted institutions. They are looting and pillaging in front of your eyes. They are dragging America towards an authoritarianism regime. They aren’t their yet. But they are in control of the executive, they are working to take control of the judiciary and have effective control of congress. America is in clear and present danger. Do I trust the experts in authoritarianism, who have been consistently correct in their predictions on what the Trump administration would do, or “the professionals”, who have decided to take a completely different course of action?
Impeachment isn’t some sort of a “get out of jail free” card. It isn’t something to “be played” for political advantage. Its the appropriate tool to be holding Trump and the administration to account and it would be entirely appropriate to be holding them to account now.
Of course Pelosi negotiated with the GOP- behind the scenes.
And bring charges in the House which cant result in any action by the senate will do nothing but re-elect trump. Eyes on the prize, not short term satisfaction.
…I think you’ve got things the wrong way around. AOC doesn’t need to “expand her worldview.” Its her job to care about migrants on the border. Especially if most people are not. Its her job to move the needle. Its what we should expect from our elected officials, is it not?
This kind of thing is exactly why I dont like AOC. There are two possibilities here:
She had no idea what was really going on and what could be accomplished, in which case she was- as usual- running her mouth off due to lack of experience and wisdom.
She knew Pelosi was getting the best deal possible, in which case AOC was just trying to score cheap points.
The 3rd? that she knew more about how to wrangle congress than Pelosi? is laughable.
I’ll put it bluntly: the progressives need the moderates more than the moderates need the progressives. Simply put, there is probably a lot more on the line for them in the upcoming election.
No, it didn’t. It did not lift the understanding of a majority of the citizenry to what Trump and his team – including many Republicans in power – have actually done.
What Pelosi understands, and that you apparently don’t, is that she can respond with the emotion the situation demands, as you have done, or she can respond in a way that is agonizingly, frustratingly slow and painful – but has the best chance of yielding actual results.
You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that no one sees the travesties being wrought upon our country by Trump but you. That simply isn’t true.
You continue to ignore points made by xenophon41 and asahi about the need to educate the public as to the contents of the Mueller report, and how letting Trump flail around in his dangerous, incoherent attempts to deflect from his own criminality is scaring the hell out of people. Even some Republicans, though they won’t say it out loud.
You’re obviously not following the growing approval for impeachment, which is one of Pelosi’s main goals.
I think it kinda does. You said they’ve “decided to not hold anyone to account.” Taking the offenders to court to compel compliance is absolutely holding them to account.
Will they disregard lawful court orders? We’ll see. If they do, that pushes the needle much closer to impeachment proceedings.
Perhaps not consciously, but it is your narrative. I’ve followed your posts long enough to notice the pattern. I don’t think you realize the extent to which you indulge in confirmation bias. Just asking you to consider it.
You are far from the only person who is aware of these things, and far from the first person who has raised these points. No one who’s paying attention disagrees with you that we are in peril as a nation. And no one is asking you to “trust them,” or saying “it will all work out.” Please point to where anyone here has admonished you to do those things.
There’s a big difference between reacting in a hysterical, emotional, ineffective manner to a threat and making a cold, challenging, calculating analysis of what approach has the best chance of, you know, actually working.
Those experts are correct about the threats. Not sure they are in a position to say Pelosi’s approach is wrong.
Sarah Kendzior is an extremely bright, well-spoken journalist who has very strong opinions, and I agree with a lot of them. But she is not sitting in the Speaker’s seat. She is not trying to maintain a coalition of diverse Democrats who must hold fast together in order to accomplish any of your frantic “do somefink!” entreaties.
Are you aware that only 80 of the Democratic House members have come out in support of an impeachment inquiry? That’s not even half of the 235 Democratic seats, let alone all but one former Republican.
Your mistake is in assuming Pelosi is not fully aware of the threats you enumerated. I would submit she is painfully aware of them. Additionally, she has the political experience to understand what is needed to accomplish the goal of actually getting rid of Trump and not giving us 4 more years of him. Will it work? Remains to be seen. Can you guarantee your approach will work better? You’ve offered nothing that gives me more confidence it will.
Some may have normalized it, but many have not. Been to a protest lately?
And again, you are saying nothing in the above quote of which most of us have been well aware for a very long time, along with sounding the alarms since Trump took office. No revelations in your comments, no need to educate us as if you’re the only one who noticed.
In my opinion, you’re charmingly naive. Again, there is the approach that is emotionally satisfying – and there’s the approach that has a better chance of accomplishing the goal. The more people hoving in the direction of impeachment as the correct remedy, the better. It is the people who must demand removal. The House can only ask for the issue to be tried.
The greatest peril is that ~42% of the American population think everything Trump is doing is just dandy.
The moderate Dems will support whomever is the D nominee because they aren’t subversive enough to do protest votes. That is too radical for them.
The far Left doesn’t have that hangup. They will withhold their votes and then cheer when the establishment loses, relishing the joy of saying “told ya so”. Again, let me remind you of pissed off Bernie supporters. More than 20% did not vote for Hillary in 2016.
Again, I’m not saying we need a far left nominee. If we have a moderate, we need someone who can play nice with more vocal and progressive members of the party. Having an entitled “they need us more than we need them” attitude is a great way for us to relive the upset of 2016.
…since when was that a requirement for impeachment? (Hint: it isn’t.)
What I understand, and what you apparently don’t, is that I’m not responding in an “emotional way.” Impeachment is the process legislative body levels charges against a government official. Thats it. When Elizabeth Warren advocated for impeachment she did that after reading the report. Same with Justin Amash. Pelosi isn’t excuting some grand strategy. There is no guarantee that what she is doing will yield “actual results.” And it isn’t “agonizingly, frustratingly slow and painful” for me. I live on the other side of the world. The people that you should be concerned about are being held in the camps. It is more than agonizingly, frustratingly slow for them.
You seem to have completely missed my point.
:: looks around ::
There has been** zero** education coming from the Pelosi camp since the release of the report. What on earth are you talking about?
Pelosi has no plans to impeach.
It kinda doesn’t.
Just like how the so-called Muslim ban got held up in court, it got tweaked to the point where the Supremes said “okay, thats good enough”, and by that stage everyone had forgotten all about it.
Pelosi is not going to impeach.
It fucking well is not.
I do not believe that the old guard Democrats are as much your “enemy” as the Republicans. I don’t know where you got that rediculous idea from. I’ve hardly posted about the “old guard Democrats” here. Almost a year ago Biden was my number one pick for the nomination. I’ve praised Pelosi and supported Pelosi, I still support Pelosi but I think she has a big fucking blind spot here. There is nothing wrong with pointing that out. Your accusation is absurd.
Before I answer your question…
Who are you accusing of responding to the threat in a hysterical, emotional, ineffective manner? It certainly isn’t me. It isn’t AOC, it isn’t Warren or Amash. Where are these hysterical people? Everyone I’ve read who have advocated for impeachment have offered a cold, challenging, calculating analysis of what they think the best approach is, that offers the best chance of, you know, actually working.
And I don’t think you are in the best position to say Pelosi’s approach is right.
Not my “frantic do somefink! entreaties.” I simply echo the arguments of the " extremely bright, well-spoken journalist" whom I assume you would also think is being “hysterical and emotional”?
And? Pelosi has made it clear she doesn’t support impeachment. Pelosi is very good at her job. Of course the numbers would reflect her position.
She doesn’t act like it.
And you’ve offered me nothing to give me confidence that it won’t.
Nope. We elected a centre-left progressive government here, bucking the world-wide trend towards authoritarianism. I don’t live in America. I would have thought you would have known that considering how closely you claimed to have followed my posts. I talk about that all the time.
But thats how “normalization” works. People **have **forgotten what Trump has done. Its why the detention camps dropped off the radar for nearly a year. Its why the Iran crisis stopped being a crisis the day after Trump canceled the bombing. There is information overload and people have blocked most of this stuff out. There are people in this thread, who are liberals opposed to Trump, who have said that the people in the camps are “lucky to get anything.” That level of normalization should worry you more than anything I’ve said in this thread.
Ad hominem followed by another accusation of emotion. Just stop that already. Either your arguements stand on their own or they don’t. Tone policing is not an argument. I’m not after an “emotionally satisfying moment.” I’m simply looking at the same arguments and evidence as you are and coming to a different conclusion.
I’m not demanding removal.
That isn’t the greatest peril. The greatest peril is that the Democrats will get out-maneuvered. That 42% isn’t going to change. You need to be worried about the security of the next elections, voter supression, whatever Data Propria are getting up too.
I don’t necessarily disagree with you on this part. I think it’s important to at least show respect to the progressive wing of the party. My concern is that the progressive wing needs to think a little less emotionally and more strategically. The handful of times that Donald Trump has been absolutely owned it has been because Pelosi used political strategy against him, not because Ocasio Cortez or Ilhan Omar embarrassed him in a Twitter war. And frankly, some members of the progressive caucus (Omar, for instance) have actually been more of a political liability so far. It’s okay to be passionate and sometimes I would imagine that, just like in these forums, the passions get the better of people. But we need more than passion. We need a political strategy.
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Not so much a concession as a note that I can’t and won’t argue with the direction of your passion. And I don’t quibble even with your opinion on Pelosi, even though I believe that if any US politician has earned a large portion of trust over the best way to move a progressive agenda through Congress it’s her.
There’s nothing off base about what you want to happen, Banquet Bear. But unless you can specify exactly how Pelosi was going to negotiate with the large contingent of her own party in Congress that were vehemently against changing the Senate bill, including which representatives she was going to work, using what forms of influence, and then how she was going to get that done in time to convince McConnell it would be worthwhile to take back, and then how she was going to get POTUS to sign it, then your complaint seems to be about what should be (on which we agree) instead of what could be which is not actually amenable to my or your opinion.