Actually, I do now. Thank you.
I had a couple of conversations last week with friends who hold similar opinions about Mayor Pete, so my answer would be yes. Granted, Peck was much more extreme but after discussing this with a number of people it has become to me clear there is a significant part of the gay community who find Buttigieg to be too much of an assimilationist.
I have no issue with ‘the squad’ beyond the extent to which it will help Trump if he succeeds at making them the face of the Democratic Party heading up to 2020. I don’t have an issue with the things they are advocating for the most part but the overriding issue for me in 2020 is to take the White House back from the GOP.
It doesn’t matter one bit how many more votes the progressive agenda brings in in California, Illinois or New York. Those states will go to the Democrats either way.
What the Democrats have to do to win is to avoid alienating voters in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania who voted for Obama but went to Trump in 2016.
Moving hard left rather than talking about issues that matter to blue collar voters in those states will give Trump a second term.
YWTF people can rationalize away lots in service of policy they prefer versus policy they fear.
Make the policy choice a choice between an economy still in decent shape and what they fear, and their disgust of Trump the person and of evil policy (that does not directly impact them) will be ignored.
That’s not just so-called Independents and Ds who voted Trump even though they voted Obama twice and possibly even voted D in 2018 midterms. It’s moderate suburban voters and even Never-Trumpers who might just stay home, or vote third party. Some Black voters who lean more moderate who don’t come out in big numbers.
Of course your argument can be turned on itself too you know. Should we only see danger in policing ourselves to make ourselves more attractive to those who think a center Left politician in the office is worse than, or at least as bad as, an unapologetic racist who, by the way, has also probably raped some kids and colluded with Russia?
There is some sweet spot that gets multiple different parts of the base out and that also can … at least not repel others, even to the point of maybe even losing demographics of his strength by a bit less.
I’m not sure where that sweet spot is of course. It’s like one of those old max-min equations.
Regarding the part I bolded: Wrong. I have supported social democratic policies for the last 30 years. What I want to see in terms of policy is pretty much in line with Elizabeth Warren but I also like to win elections. I believe in incrementalism. Sorry, I know for a lot of folks that is a dirty word but the reality is change happens over time. Progressive ideas are and have been gaining ground over the last 20 years at least. When I was in my 20’s and Clinton sold out the gay community over Don’t Ask Don’t Tell I was livid. If you had told me then I would live to see SCOTUS uphold gay marriage I would have laughed in your face.
If DJT is reelected, the GOP will be in a position to reverse all of the gains made in the last 30 years.
…so you have a sample size of three?
Can I suggest that the problem isn’t with the far left, but with the quality of your friends? Maybe get better friends?
Is this “number of people” your two friends? Can you quantify exactly how “significant” this part of the gay community is and can you provide some cites for that?
Of course thats an important issue. But we can’t ignore the other issues. We can’t ignore the camps. People have died in the camps. More people will die in the camps. We can’t ignore racism. Trump is holding the equivalent of a KKK rally now as we speak.
We can’t afford to “do nothing” while we wait for the next election to roll up. Are you worried about taking the White House back from the GOP? Then hoping the squad are just going to “shut up” for the next year isn’t a strategy that is going to work. Because they have a duty to the people they represent: they are doing their jobs as they see fit. They are rallying their base. They will get the people that support them out to vote. They are well aware of the stakes. Stop worrying about them. The centre can rally and get people out to vote without worrying what the squad are doing. You can do many different things at the very same time.
There is nothing stopping you talking about " issues that matter to blue collar voters in those states will give Trump a second term." Talk about them. Get Pelosi to talk about them. What are those issue? What are we not talking about that we should be talking about? What are we missing? Why can’t we do two things at once?
Can you stop complaining that we aren’t talking about issues that matter to blue collar voters and start talking about the issues that matter to blue collar voters?
Nonsense. The VOTE was 304-227. And you know that’s the only one that counts.
It’s not the existence of the extreme left that is the problem. There has always been a progressive wing of the party, and the progressive wing of the party has occasionally been noisy about their disagreements with centrists. But what’s different over the last few years is that the progressive left, whether we’re talking about Bernie-ism or identity politics, has shown that it has the capacity to derail moderates. They are strong enough and some of them are mainstream enough within the party to punish centrists in ways that weren’t possible for a long time – maybe not since the late 1960s and early to mid-1970s.
I don’t have a problem with a Green New Deal at all – in fact I quite like it. I want more talk about a Green New Deal. I want more talk about climate change and what to do about it. I want spirited debate and discussion over the issues, and race is an issue. Intense debate and disagreement itself isn’t a problem – I like energy. It’s just that race and racism shouldn’t be an issue among Democrats (obviously I’m not talking just about AOC or the Squad here, but Harris and current primary candidates as well). I don’t think it’s wrong for progressive dems to debate and want to fight against the horrific conditions in the detention centers, but progressives should know, legislatively, when they’re in a position to do something and when they’re not. And their solution to the problem shouldn’t make the problem worse. Overall, except for the friendly fire when it comes to identity politics, I don’t see progressives as necessarily wrong on the issues, but I do see problems with their tactics. We don’t need AOC’s chief of staff or anyone to be throwing verbal grenades at other members of their party. That’s just dumb. And they also need to know when they have leverage, and when they don’t.
What a gracious reply. 
I have no problem with the existence of the extreme left and agree with this post 100%. I have no problem and am very much in favor of many of the things on the agenda of progressive and leftist Democrats.
I just know, the Democrats losing in 2020 will screw generations to come.
I’m glad you’re passionate, Banquet Bear. However, please don’t personalize your arguments like this. It kills debate and could be perceived as insulting.
…you’ve quoted a very long post of mine. Can you be specific on what part personalised the argument, and what could have been “percieved” as insulting, and is it the moderators instruction that I am to avoid the **perception **of being insulting, even when it should be crystal clear that I am not?
No offense, but no shit. There isn’t anything profound about this notion. History tells us that this occurs; current events tells us that this occurs.
The thing that bears mentioning is that so many Dems don’t see the danger in accommodating this rationalization. Despite what history has told us. Despite the slippery slope implications staring us right in the face. The travesty that is Trump becomes normalized every time we’re urged to think about the so-called independents in the Rust Belt.
If the people you were referring to were at risk of voting for our generation’s version of Hitler, you might have a point. But they are at risk of not voting at all, especially those that feel like collateral damage in a war between two parties that don’t care about helping and protecting them.
In contrast, Kolak is urging us to fret about Rust Belt voters whose reaction to Trump’s tweet isn’t “wow, this President is fucked up and has officially lost my vote” but rather, “wow, look at how triggered these Commie pinko leftists are”. And I don’t have any patience with this viewpoint. Anyone who thinks like this was never the Dems’ to begin with.
This should be a wake up call for unification and solidarity, but no, here we are still doing the fight between moderates and progressives and who is doing what wrong. If you want to talk about traps that Trump could be setting, I see this as the trap. Paralysis from analysis.
Do the math. If the Democrats don’t win those states - TRUMP WILL WIN.
The Electoral College sucks but we are stuck with it. It doesn’t matter if those voters are onboard with the issues you or I care about most. If Trump gets a second term progressive policy will be dead for a generation because of SCOTUS appointments at the very least.
…what is it, specifically, do you want the “hard left” to do so that you win those states?
Yup. This plays right into Donnie’s hands… tiny hands.
Maybe the problem is that you think that all Dems are like you, but they’re just not. Many Democratic representatives in the House are centrists and moderate ‘softies’ because they are the product of their voting districts. Let’s not forget that since the same people who supported Obama but who otherwise sit out mid-terms similarly sat out in 2010, Republicans were given the chance to gerrymander the absolute ever-loving shit out of the congressional maps. What this means is that the only way – the only way – that Dems were able to win back the House and to have the kinds of opportunities to impeach and censure that you seem to be salivating over is due to the fact that Democrats were allowed to run their own campaigns in their own districts. They didn’t worry about a party-wide strategy because they had no power. The overwhelming majority of congressional districts are nothing like those represented by The Squad. Believing that the progressive Democrats can take this ‘my way or the highway’ mentality into governing or into next year’s election is just a colossal miscalculation.
Take it from someone who has been involved with campaigns and studied politics out of necessity for a while.
What I want the “hard left” to do is employ language that helps the blue collar working class in those states understand how progressive policies on healthcare, education, jobs and climate change are beneficial to them and their children.
If DJT keeps on demonizing “the squad” I would suggest they do a tour of the country. Hit every state and county fair they can and talk to people face to face. Explain how their policies would improve life for them and their neighbors. That would seriously fuck him up. Retail politics is what I think they used to call it.
We need progressive energy, and we need moderates to step up and speak out more in finding some kind of way to openly embrace more of the policies that progressives are asking for. In this way, I kind of agree with some of the more progressive voices in this forum that Biden looks way, way too fucking timid.
I like progressive policies - shit I’m not even totally opposed to Medicare for All. I think there are politically safer alternatives, but to give Bernie some credit, at least he’s taking something that people are already familiar with and just proposing its expansion, so he’s not crazy about this.
Where I disagree with Dems is when it comes to campaign tactics and the tactics in terms of governance, and it’s the latter that worries me most. It would be bad enough of Donald Trump got re-elected but if the House Democrats fall apart and become viewed as the dysfunctional party, they could conceivably lose the House, or if nothing else, lose a lot of seats. I worry about the Democrats having another 1972 or 1994 type election.
…I’m hearing that from the “hard left.” Are you not? Warren and Bernie have tailored their message to the blue collar working class. Warren has toured blue collar states and this is clearly her message. So how come I’m hearing it and you are not?
AOC represents the people of serves as the U.S. Representative for New York’s 14th congressional district. Omar serves as the U.S. Representative for Minnesota’s 5th congressional district. Tlaib serves as the U.S. Representative for Michigan’s 13th congressional district. Pressley serves as the U.S. Representative for Massachusetts’s 7th congressional district.
Do you want them to abandon their responsibilities and do a “tour of the country?” You seriously expect them to hit every state and country fair and talk to people face to face? Don’t you think that doing that would be a serious slap in the face to the people in the districts they represent?
Can I suggest that your expectations are just a tad unrealistic? It isn’t the squad’s responsibility to do this. They have enough to do already. If Trump keeps demonizing “the squad” then what I would expect is for the Democratic leadership to step up to the plate, set aside their differences and unequivocally and proactively defend the squad.
The squad don’t need to sell their message to the grassroots. The squad are going to bring their base and their votes to the next election. Consider it a lock. Let them keep on doing what they are doing.
Its the centre that needs to step up their game. And they need to step it up not by demonising the squad, or demanding the squad do “tours of the country”, but coming up with a message they want to send the grassroots themselves.
Your strategy allows Trump to set the agenda. Its a **reactive **strategy. Just like almost everything the Democrats (apart from the squad) are doing. Reacting.
Yep.
Oh a dozen or so would do.
Nope.
I know. That’s why I’m confident DJT will be reelected.