I saw that information on the Wiki article you linked to, but unless I’m missing something somewhere that data accounts for only 11.8% of abortions. I was unsure as to whether a mistake had been made or whether the article intended to imply that the remaining 88.2% occurred prior to the 13th week. 
I read that too, but to me question of gestational age within that context was fairly academic anyway because it applied only to the 1.4% of abortions occurring after the 20th week.
Yes, ~90% of all abortions occur in the 1st trimester.
Yeh, um, thanks. Didn’t we land on the moon, or something, too?
Why are you directing this at me?
This particular fact can be misleading because - as the Guttmacher Institute cite I quoted above states - there are four types of facilities where abortions take place: hospitals, abortion clinics, nonspecialized clinics, and doctors’ offices. It is an open question as to how many late term abortions are performed apart from the three clinics listed in the article linked above, but I think it’s safe to say that there are a good many more than ‘three clinics’ implies.
And on preview, thanks, Dio. The longer this thread progresses, the less unhappy I am about the current state of abortion in this country. Frankly, I hadn’t been aware that things had progressed to this point. It appears that, by and large, things are already pretty much to the point that I said upthread I’d have no problem with, so…ignorance fought!
My opinion is, that you’re wrong.
Everyone knows its a dark place, littered with all my missing socks. They have to go somewhere, right?
If you don’t agree, you are just a bad awful terrible person.
So there.
Starving Artist - I’ve noticed that you’ve stated that you’re against aborting foetuses who are “fully physiologically developed”, including saying that a fetus at 21 weeks is fully physiologically developed and just needs to grow a little more, but this shows that you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.
Just because a fetus was born at 21 weeks and survived due to massive medical intervention does not mean that they were fully physiologically developed. They were certainly not “perfectly capable of surviving outside the womb”. Even at 24 weeks, the survival rate is only 50%. Premature infants who survive are not born as simply smaller versions of a full-term infant - they have yet to fully develop physiologically, and for them growth and maturation (distinct processes) will continue. A six month old infant who was born at full-term is not the same as a six month old who was born very premature - the preemie has catching up to do that taking quite a while.
For instance - I was born somewhat prematurely, 6 1/2 weeks early. My lungs were not fully developed, as fetuses at that age lack surfactant, which decreases surface tension in the lungs and enables better breathing. Nowadays this is not an insurmountable medical problem, and can be treated rather easily. However, things are not so rosy just a few weeks earlier in gestation, and there are many other physiological differences between preemies and full-term infants. Pre-term infants are at risk for many complications and disabilities, both physical and mental, due to their lacking full physiological development.
Physiological problems can include: apnea of prematurity, hypoxic-ischemic encephalopathy, intracranial hemorrhage, retinopathy of prematurity, developmental disability, cerebral palsy, heart problems like patent ductus arteriosus, respiratory distress syndrome, chronic lung disease, hypoglycemia, feeding difficulties, rickets of prematurity, hypocalcemia, inguinal hernia, necrotizing enterocolitis, sepsis, pneumonia, and urinary tract infection
To be clear E-Sabbath, I’m cool with abortion laws as they are. Never said I had a problem with them.
Waenara, I’m perfectly aware of everything you’ve said. By fully physiologically developed, I mean that they have a functioning nervous system; a brain developed to the point that it can control movement and breathing; eyes that are capable of movement, and, presumably, seeing; etc.
In other words, it is my opinion that once a fetus has reached this stage of development it is no longer a fetus at all but a conscious, living and feeling human being. This as opposed to the mindless and unfeeling glob of tissue that babies even up to full term have been described as by proponents of abortion going all the way back to before Roe vs. Wade. Advances in technology have allowed us to learn that this is not the case, and that fact has clearly been instrumental in bringing things around to the point now where so few abortions are carried out post-20 weeks.
I know there are many hurdles that preemies have clear in order to survive, but if you looked at the link I provided (way upthread :)), you will see a 21-week-old baby looking at it’s caregiver and breathing on its own. The article that accompanies it also tells of a database run by the University of Iowa’s Department of Pediatrics that lists seven other babies born at 23 weeks between 1994 and 2003.
Further, even perfectly healthy babies carried to full term are not capable of surviving without assistance, so I don’t really regard the ailments preemies are susceptible to or their need for assistance to be a factor with regard to their status as conscious, living and feeling human beings.
Here’s a thing-- Dr. Tiller and Palikia were high-school sweeties.
I’m looking through her 1959 yearbook right now.
I see your point, Starving Artist. Since it is a fairly grey area about when a particular fetus becomes viable, even someone pro-choice (such as myself) may find the idea of aborting a 20+ week old fetus for reasons unrelated to the fetus’ or mother’s health a little squicky.
I mean, at that point the woman’s felt movement, possibly even hiccups (weird but true) and I have a much harder time supprting an elective abortion past that stage. But I stay out of other people’s reproductive decisions.
My sister almost aborted my niece, her second child, because of several false positives for Down syndrome. She was fairly far along in her pregnancy and ill-equipped to deal with a special needs child. After researching adoption (which she ultimately decided against because of the difficulty of placing mentally handicapped babies in permenant homes) she scheduled an appointment at a clinic. She couldn’t go through with it, however, because it had advanced beyond the fetus stage in her opinion.
Luckily my niece is happy and healthy, and arguably the cutest 18 month old in the world.
Also wanted to add another anecdote. I know, anecdote, data, but this is too weird not to share. I have a friend who is the most fertile woman ever. She has had 6 pregnancies, 4 children (although 2 are twins). So she’s had 3 abortions. But she’s not “using abortions as birth control.” To the contrary, except for the twins, all of her other pregnancies occurred after the failure of at least one (sometimes 2) birth control methods. I believe the full list includes condoms, oral contraceptives, Depo, and an IUD. She is apparently the .001% of women for whom bc doesn’t work.
I was aware of that before but it is noticeable that the right wing media “forgets” to tell those facts to their viewers and listeners.
The groups fanning the anti-abortion flames are not just ignorant, but they are willing to lie and hide information from their followers to make it more difficult to women go even get legal and needed abortions.
Followers like the killer of the doctor.
’
Uh huh. Cute. Stop being disingenuous. You know damn well life is comprised of nothing more than organic molecules and carbon compounds, yet humans seem very much to be more than the sum of these parts. Or aren’t we?
I’m not sure why you’re responding with snark, as I was asking Cat Fight a rather earnest question.
My mind is not made up here, no matter how adamant I appear. I’ve changed my mind over and over on this issue, as my worldview has changed over the years. I can see it changing again if I’m sufficiently convinced. Forgive me if I’m testing and defending my thinking, to see if they hold any water, with strangers on the internet.
If all that matters is development of the mind, then why not terminate a pregnancy up to the ~40th week? Why not months after birth, even? I’m not talking about laws… I’m talking about morality. There’s really no one “in” there until it starts getting stimulus and developing self-awareness and cognizance from the world around them.
Here’s a sci-fi hypothetical:
Say you could travel back in time to the days your mother first found out she was pregnant with you (let’s say 3 weeks in). You get to talking, and she opens up with you… you seem like a familiar soul. You learn she didn’t plan this at all. She has little money, little support and this will throw a huge damper in her plans. She’s seriously debating an abortion. Do you encourage her to go through with it?
This issue is so volatile and for the most part each side is absolutely certain that they are right. I can not think of another issue that is so divisive. Page nine and we long ago forgot that the discussion was regarding the cold, calculated murder of a doctor.
I’ll weigh in from the radicals: My body, my choice. And if you’re a man, shut up, you have no say in the matter. Talk to me when you get pregnant.
I’m delighted to hear that your neice is happy, healthy and well (cute, too! :)), and I applaud your sister for following her heart. It must have been an extremely difficult (and courageous) decision on her part to to keep her daughter believing she would have to confront and deal with the illness that she thought would be part of the bargain, and I can’t commend her enough. (And I know how you feel about your neice. My two neices are like daughters to me and are absolutely the light of my life.)
This is one of the reasons I’m not altogether opposed to early term abortions. There are certainly times when a woman can become pregnant despite all reasonable precautions, and/or when having and raising a baby just is not a viable option. I’m not particularly concerned about abortion from a religious standpoint as I feel that if a soul is created at the time of inception it will find its way to God just fine on its own, and to me as long as the abortion takes place early enough so as not to constitute the killing of a viable human being, I think it can be the best choice for many women and teens in difficult circumstances.
Which, from the actual evidence at hand, hasn’t a whole lot of anything to do with the particular doctor who was just murdered.
I’m a man. The chances are I won’t get raped (and if I do, it most certainly won’t be in the same way that a woman would). Should I therefore keep my nose out of it if you are? Should I remain neutral and adopt the position that, oh, well, I’m a man, no skin off my nose…and besides, I don’t have a vagina so why should I even care if a woman gets raped?
The fact of the matter is that people…most people anyway…care about the plight of others, and that is generally considered to be a good thing. The fact that men care about women even though we aren’t women ourselves is why laws protecting women were enacted long before women became lawmakers themselves. Would you have preferred that we took the view that since we aren’t women we have no say in whether or not you get protected from crime? Or that the miscreants get punished?
And what about the baby you created? The one who had no say in its creation, and, if up to you, no say in its destruction? That baby is not you, and it is not a part of you. It is a separate creature that you created and that exists within you and is attached to you, but it is not a part of you. And like it or not, I’m gonna presume to speak for it if I feel it’s reached the stage where it has become a conscious and feeling human being.
It’s none of my business.
Sure. If changing the past can erase me, I’m already gone anyway. Just appearing there would do it.
More importantly, your hypothetical isn’t a good analogy, because an actuality ( me ) isn’t at all the same as a potentiality ( what a fetus might become ).
Ah, the Dope: where people who don’t disagree strongly will devote nine pages to disagreeing loudly.
Thus far, it seems we all agree that the presence of brain activity and the capability of viability outside the womb is a turning point in fetal development. We all seem to agree that abortions, while perhaps regrettable, that occur prior to fetal viability are reasonable under most circumstances. We also pretty much agree that late-term abortions should, for strong preference, only occur in dire circumstances.
Does anyone really think that a hypothetical woman who wanted an abortion illegal under Kansas law would simply request and receive a wink and a nod? He was accused of this and acquitted. Is merest accusation enough to condemn just because you think you might disagree with the fellow? Do you really believe this man was so bloodthirsty and so delighted to abort fetuses that he encouraged women eight months and three weeks pregnant to hop in if birth was going to get in the way of their trip to the Bahamas?
Given a complete lack of evidence, given only “well, I doubt that everything was as tidy as all that, but I admit I can’t give a cite” versus “We have investigated and found no wrongdoing”, the former doesn’t hold up awfully well.
And Guin, the “I want to have an abortion just to piss people off” comment was creepy in the extreme, in my opinion. I shouldn’t think it’s ever a delightful occasion, more a grim or unfortunate necessity. You might have no more attachment to a fetus than I do to a kidney stone, but I’d rather not have gone through that surgery either.
Yet again do we all begin to argue outrageous points just to avoid being wrong, being defeated in an argument.