Not months–years.
So it is your position that fetuses go from mindless globs of tissue into perfectly viable human creatures capable not only of gripping things with their fists but of survival outside the womb within a one week period starting at the twentieth week and culminating sometime during the twenty-first week?
I wouldn’t have thought even you capable of that kind of nonsense.
Having said that however, if I were willing to concede that a twenty-week-old fetus hasn’t a thought or “brain wave” in its head, would you be willing to acknowledge that twenty-one-week old fetuses are viable human beings, capable not only of conscious movement but of life outside the womb?
How so? RNATB made a claim about twenty-week-old fetuses. I showed beyond a doubt that that claim was false if applied to twenty-one-week old fetuses. Perhaps you’d care to show how that proves him right and me ‘hopelessly wrong’?
Except that they use a twisted, irrational definition of human life that has the purpose of justifying murder and the oppression of women.
Of course not; it’s all about malice and hatred of women. It’s perfectly consistent for one to shoot a “abortion doctor” with one hand, and toss a hand grenade into a room full of children with the other, as long as he thinks those children’s mothers love them. They have no reason to be anti-death penalty.
No, they SAY they do, but they are liars.
Somebody’s bound to notice, really, this place is full of smart-asses.
What hair is being split? He said no brain waves were possible BEFORE 20 weeks. Your cites in no way refute that. What are you even trying to contest?
I don’t see where any of that was contended at all. The contention was that no brain wave activity is possible before 20 weeks, not that it forms instantaneously, only that the brain doesn’t BEGIN to develop the necessary anatomy until then.
[Snipping the rest as the Greek idiot is still trying to distract.]
:rolleyes:
21 weeks is more time than 20 weeks.
BTW development in fetuses is really fast.
I thought before that time line ignorance among conservatives was a joke, but I always find people like you that show that the syndrome is a real one. I call it the Time-line Avoidance Syndrome.
TAS for short.
Okay, il luce, here’s your chance to shine…just how was I wrong?
(And I’d love to have you on record as defending the notion that twenty-week-old babies lack brain waves when they can move and live outside the womb a week later.)
Yes, it was a contention made by RNATB with no proof whatsoever. I offered proof that a week later babies are capable of physical movement in response to stimuli and to survival outside the womb as premature babies. So I’d say the likelihood is that RNATB is wrong, as it’s hardly likely that such dramatic development would occur suddenly and spontaneously at twenty-one weeks. If you or RNATB have proof to back up his ‘contention’ I’d be happy to look at it.
But having said all that, will you, GIGObuster and any other abortion supporters around here be willing to concede then that at twenty-one-weeks a human fetus has indeed become a viable human being? I don’t see how you could possibly claim otherwise.
Your cites did not offer any evidence that he was wrong.
Irrelevant for this discussion. The subject is the murder of a doctor.
Deal with it, not with your Greek idiotic hijack.
Given your responses to the information I’ve provided above, I hardly think you’re in a position to be calling anyone an idiot.
And it’s not a hijack at all. It goes to explain why some people are moved to murder abortion doctors in order to prevent the [often gruesome] killing of unborn babies…as that’s what they clearly are during at least the last four months of pregnancy.
“Viability” is more a technological definition than anything, not an ethical one; it refers to the point where a fetus can be kept alive. Fifty years from now, viability might well be “zero weeks” with the use of artificial wombs; it’s hardly a good definition of whether or not something should be treated as a person.
And second, all this talk about brain waves at best sets an absolute minimum where the fetus can have a human mind; it’s rather unlikely that it poof actually has one right then.
“Unborn babies” that are either beyond saving, or will kill the mother. Something they clearly don’t care about - but then, that’s because they ***don’t really care ***in the slightest about babies.
And that shows once again what an ignoramus you are.
The doctor was already under the treat of lawsuits if he did not follow the restrictive laws in Kansas. It was the health of the woman and the fetus that were the most likely reasons why this doctor practiced abortions.
The explanation mentioned is mostly a bogus one.
The extreme fundamentalist murderer had not even that rotten justification.
BTW a Greek idiot does not mean what you think it is, it is just another item on the mountain of evidence that shows that you are a certified ignorant.
It most certainly is an ethical one. If a fetus has developed sufficient brain, nervous system and internal organ development to allow it to move about and even breath outside the womb, no credible argument can be made that it is a mindless glob of tissue and that therefore no harm is done in aborting it. And this doesn’t even speak of the atricious way in which they are subjected to death, often by being torn limb from limb.
I agree wholeheartedly…but then I’m not the one claiming that fetal brains go ‘poof’ in the twenty-first week.
Hardly…unless you are speaking solely of late-term abortions conducted to save the mother’s life. And in this case I would have no objection, provided that it was done so humanely rather than in the horrible way it’s often done now.
I care about them, and that proves you wrong.
Note your use of the word, ‘likely’. It undermines your entire claim. Further, Dr. Tiller has been under investigation for *multiple violations *of Kansas law. This from the Los Angeles Times as of January 31 of '08:
*One of the nation’s few late-term abortion doctors was ordered Wednesday to turn over about 2,000 patient medical records to a Kansas grand jury investigating his practice.
Abortion opponents hope that the records will lead to further criminal charges against Dr. George Tiller, who already is facing 19 misdemeanor counts stemming from late-second and third-trimester abortions at his clinic in Wichita.*
So it appears that there is certainly some question as to whether he was performing abortions in accordance with state law and/or solely to save womens’ lives.
You keep saying things like this but you never explain yourself. Just how is it bogus?
What mountain of evidence? The evidence I presented is irrefutable, whereas the ‘mountain of evidence’ you posted in flaccid rebuttal was merely to tell me my comments were off-topic and a hijack of the thread.
But I do thank you for the explication of ‘Greek idiot’. Now, if you want to see one, I suggest you look in the nearest available mirror, because the mountain of evidence with regard to this issue is clearly not in your favor.
You’re “pro-abortion”? Pfft. Sophist. I’m “pro-unborn-baby-murder.”
Seriously though, you’re right that the terminology of the debate becomes oppressive. As a matter of course, people latch on to definitions and argue semantics, to the complete exclusion of the things they fundamentally disagree about.
It’s a crying fucking shame what happened to Dr. Tiller. I don’t know anything at all, really, about the man, his career or his patients and family, but no one deserves to have their life stolen from them by anyone else if they’re abiding by the law (and even if not the case, let it be brought to justice through our legal system).
When it comes to morals, it’s a different story. I’m pro-choice because I believe everyone needs to make those moral calls for themselves. Since abortion is one of the grayest areas of all time, we’re going to have to be content with drawing a safe line, from a scientific standpoint, and say no abortions beyond this point, unless it greatly endangers the life of the mother. Which seems to be what we have in place.
That said, I also feel really skanky about the thought of terminating a pregnancy, well underway. I can’t help but see a person in progress. An individual is growing there, not merely a lump of cells. Don’t fuck with it, and one day it might write music, or who knows what? So, let that be on the mother and father’s head. If they can sleep with that, fine. For me? I got my Vas difference clipped.
You do realize that by that definition a slug qualifies as human ? And you ignore the fact that “viability” depends on available medical technology as much as the devolopment of the fetus.
So if there’s no chance of a viable baby resulting, you want to force the mother to go through birth anyway. Which isn’t surprising; as I’ve said, opposition to abortion is about hurting women, and nothing more.
And late term abortions are ALWAYS about saving the mother, or a nonviable fetus; and in Kansas only the former.
Except that I think you are lying.
And if I didn’t use that word you’d talk about how fanatically certain I was no doubt.
Please; he was under constant legal harassment from anti-abortion vermin like yourself.
Or become the next Hitler ? That every-sperm-is-sacred oh-what-might-it-become argument doesn’t work for multiple reasons.
The killer did not even had the excuse you are claiming he had in his favor in this case.
Sure, if you can magically demonstrate that 21 weeks are smaller than 20.
Yes, indeed you are attempting to avoid dealing with the issue at hand and turn this into just another discussion on abortion.
To counteract your willful ignorance, an ancient greed idiot was:
Just by continuing to show obtuseness with the time lines you demonstrate that you are indeed a Greek idiot. And this murderer had no valid justification also.
Or the next abortionist murderer, the point is you’re missing the point. If the kid grows up to be an asshole, that’s why we have fucking laws in the first place.
I never said anything about anything being sacred. A sperm isn’t a human, it only carries half the code. I’m talking about terminating a human. Your call if/when you think it’s cool.
…or at least too busy contacting lawyers.
Speaking of avoiding timelines:
http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/1226717.html
Stop using your spam/blast emails from your relatives. Show us that you can use your own mind.
(But I think Starving Artist will just use his ancient “wisdom” and turn March 27, 2009 into an event that has not taken place yet.)