Dopers, my 29-year old daughter seeks your help. She is trying to come up with a professional-sounding letter to the store manager to start documenting a problem. She is trying to do this without sounding like a whiny crybaby. Please be gentle–if I wanted to hear how about how my daughter probably is a fat, homeless-looking person, I woulda gone to the Pit. I assure you that she tries to manage her weight and she dresses appropriately for where she works.
She is an office assistant at a flooring store. She has been receiving morale-killing comments from Bitchula, the assistant sales manager (not her boss, not her supervisor–really more of a lead salesperson), about her weight, what she can or cannot eat, and the way she dresses.
My daughter is 5 foot 3 inches and about 250 pounds. We all know she is overweight; she has not gained any weight since beginning work at this place. She tries not to eat at work at all because of the comments she receives. She wears business casual clothing to work. She had long, super-thick, wavy hair that she wears down, braided, or sometimes in a bun. She tends to go light on the makeup.
Example of comments:
She was told that she looks like a homeless person because her hair was up in a bun.
She was told she looked like an albino because she did not wear makeup one day.
She was eating a small ice cream cone from McDonalds: “Oh my god, you’re fat enough! You don’t need to eat that!”
How much detail should a letter to the manager include? Any specific language suggestions? Alternate documentation suggestions? Suggestions for politely putting Bitchula in her place? She has tried ignoring the situation but the comments continue.
I am the type to write a book when a paragraph will do. Plus I am in mom mode—fuck with my kid at your own risk, Bitchula. So I ask my Doper friends for their humble opinions.
I’d say your phrasing was neutral enough, just add details like dates, times, and names? The assistant sales manager is creating a hostile workplace environment, :mad: and your daughter should be keeping a detailed log of all comments, dated, and initialed. (And taken home with her when not stashed in her purse where the offender or her allies cannot find it.) It is bad enough it is affecting your daughter’s behavior in that she is skipping meals which is NOT healthy, :eek: and not something she should be doing, especially since she’s trying not to gain weight. The last thing she needs to do is have her body decide it is starving and start storing away even more fat!
Yup - detailed log of all the comments, and then pass them on to her manager. What usually happens is people get fed up and angry, then go to see their manager and say something like, “Bitchula says mean things to me, like, like…” and then can’t come up with the examples on the spot. Having a written down log of all the dates, times, who was involved, and what was said takes it out of someone just whining territory and takes it to, “This is a detailed log of my complaint to a workplace lawyer if this doesn’t get settled properly.”
Just some reassurance for you - oh yeah, those comments are totally over the line. No one at work needs to comment negatively on anyone else’s clothes, hair, make-up, or food choices - it’s simply not their business.
Do not do any employer-contacting on your daughter’s behalf, she has to handle this herself. She should not mention a lawyer the first time she brings this to her manager’s attention. It’ll get her employer’s hackles up when they may be willing to work with her and resolve the issue. I agree that documenting is a good idea, but the next time it happens she just needs to go to (or call) the manager and report it. Immediately, every time.
If you live in a one-party consent state, she can get a little tape recorder and hide it in her breast pocket or purse. She could either get an 8-hour tape and let it run all day, or discreetly press play when she sees the girl coming.
FWIW, I’m a fat chick. I would have gone straight to my boss the very first time this happened. I don’t care whether or not I look whiny, that’s flat-out unprofessional. It’s one thing when a coworker is being rude and snotty, but when someone *above you *on the org chart is making fat jokes? You go above her dumb head and take care of the problem.
Weight is not a protected class, so she’s not going to get a huge settlement by bringing a discrimination suit against the company, or anything like that. Filing for discrimination would be dismissed (actually a lawyer wouldn’t even take the case). But there may still be grounds for a hostile workplace environment.
UNfortuneately, many times the upper echelon has a blind ear. I know what you mean about the PIT thread now though.
While some states recognize Intentional infliction of emotional distress as a TORT, many do not recognize it as a workplace tort. Even if yours did, the conduct must be egregious and outrageous, that is legally defined.
This however is NOT a “Hostile work environment” that has a specific meaning in law.
I think just a few states recognize obesity as a protected class for discriminatory/possible lawsuit purposes.
When a person is, and most are employed “At Will”, even if one has a legitimate cause of action, they need to prove it, and the company has business insurance, lawyers on retainer, etc.
Her feelings are important, but bare in mind, some managers/companies care nothing about employees, as they are just a “hired commodity”.
If that is the case here, it matters NOT what she says, in any tone,
Be on record though with it. Mail a copy to herself, do not open it, and keep it, this is known as “Self Service”. When and if it becomes a legal/unemployment sign up question, she has back up.
Just because there might not be an avenue for redress for some type of discrimination, that doesn’t mean that the behavior isn’t garden variety harassment. I’d focus less on trying to meet some type of legal standard for discrimination, and more on the facts suggesting that your daughter is being harassed.
Good grief. This, ladies and gentlemen, is what happens when bullies grow up. I hope your daughter’s boss is receptive but if not, she needs to be prepared to stand up for herself against this witch. IMO, she still needs to address the co-worker directly. Something along the lines of “You don’t get to talk to me like that. I’m documenting each time you disrespect me and have reported it to my boss.”
The fact that you are in a “fuck with my kid at your own risk, Bitchula” mode for a 29 year old fully grown woman is kind of shocking. Wasn’t she taught how to handle herself? She’s 29 and cowering in the corner over some off the cuff comments? Seriously? This woman’s conduct, while a bit rude, is rather tame. Going to the store manager is total overkill, and yes, she will look like a whiner.
This is a simple back off lady situation and not a federal case.
Is there some reason your daughter can’t respond to this woman with an even toned but slightly bored “Thank you for your concern” and let the comment drop like a rock? The woman will stop. Or she could come right out and tell this woman that comments about her weight and appearance are off-limits, but that would give this woman an opening to tell her that she is too thin-skinned, too sensitive, she’s just trying to help, she’s just kidding, can’t you take a joke, blahbady blah blah.
Your daughter is 5’ 3" and 250 lbs. If she were totally ok with this, maybe the comments of a woman who holds such a marginal position in her life would not be affecting her so much. Maybe she’s not as ok with her weight as you might think.
There are so many workplace bullies out there. And so much of management is apt to receive complaints and view the complainer as a whiny crybaby. The truth is, management is often scared shitless, and afraid of confrontation or rocking the boat. They’ll listen, and often fail to act.
Is there anything wrong with making audio recordings of these comments? Many a bitch will say one thing when it’s just the victim and bully, and really tone down the act around management. A recording would be wonderful proof. I know in my state, one is allowed to record phone calls without the other party being aware of the recording. Is there a difference if you’re recording in real life, face-to-face? Does the recorded party need to be aware, especially if they’re harassing the recorder? Maybe they could be recorded anyhow, let management listen to it in order to serve as proof, and maybe the recorded bitchula would never find out that the recording served as proof to convince management there was a problem?
My daughter took this up with the existing store manager in conversation; he told her that he talked to Bitchula about these inappropriate comments but there have been no changes. I did tell her to start documenting everything and she says she has been.
A new store manager is coming. If this botheration continues under new management, she wants to be able to provide him with the right kind of documentation. Since I no longer think I know everything, I am looking for ideas I may have overlooked and polite ways to shut this bitch down. I personally am not good with the tact, but some Dopers are.
Oh, I don’t intend to get directly involved; I don’t fight* my kids’ battles anymore.
This is good and I’ll pass it along.
I don’t like it when people pick on my kid and I’m honest about it. The kid asked for advice; she’s never experienced this shit in the workplace and she wants to handle it right.
This particular problem has been going on for the last few months. Ignoring it has not made it go away. Directly asking the person to quit commenting on personal issues has not made it go away, and you are correct—she has been told she is too thin-skinned and that these comments are only in her best interest.
She is not okay with her weight—she is aware of it. It’s not news each day. Why these comments hit her so hard doesn’t matter; they are inappropriate whether they roll off her back or send her into tears. If Bitchula were her supervisor or actual management, she might have some say in matters of personal appearance, which is why I made it clear that she is not. However, it’s a small workplace; my daughter gets to interact with this person 5 days a week. To be frank, if it’s going to be unpleasant either way, she would rather it be hostile silence than constant comments; it’s much easier to ignore the former.
*I’m asking for advice on her behalf so I guess I’m still somewhat fighting those battles, or at least remaining in the trenches with this one.
There’s an app for that.
It turns your smartphone into a tape recorder, and is very easy to use, and no need to hide it, since everybody keeps a phone in their pocket.
(But it may be illegal. Check the law carefully…If it’s legal, it could save your ass and prove harrassment, hostile envirionment, etc. But if it’s illegal, and bitchella sees you taping her, then she could charge you with harrasssment, hostile workplace,etc, and maybe worse.
“With all due respect, I do not appreciate being spoken to in this way.”
Your daughter needs to calmly say these words. Nothing else, let the bitch rail. Remain calm, remain silent. Move on, and carry on, regardless. Let that moment pass.
That may well be, all that this situation requires.
Should it continue, she should approach whoever hired her, and have a little talk, along the lines of; “Do you mind if I ask you something? Do you have a problem with my appearance, in any way? Wish I’d wear more makeup? Do my hair differently? Dress more office formal? Do I look like a homeless person to you?”
When asked why she’s asking, she should be open, honest and reply; “I’ve had some staff comments. They were upsetting to me, I’m wondering how you feel.”
If asked who said these things, she should respond, “I’d really rather not say, can we keep this between us?”
No whining, just openness and honesty.
(She needs to be prepared that she may hear that she might be better off with better make up, or she does need to think about stepping back from casual. It’s always a possibility. If that’s the case, and I doubt it is, you ought to be able to help her with those things.)
Question: Is Bitchula your daughter’s direct supervisor/ team leader/ etc *in any capacity * ? It’s important, because if she has any authority at all over your daughter then standing up to her won’t do any good. I don’t like running away, but finding a different position would be the better choice.
However:
If she is in NO authority, the next time it happens, your daughter needs to stand up for herself in a decisive manner. " Bitchula, when I want your opinion, I’ll fucking ask for it. My weight is none of your goddamn business and has nothing to do with work, so shut your mouth." Leave it at that. No threats to take it to the boss, or anything else. Then keep documenting. Chances are it will stop after this, or Bitchula may push it and try to cause a ruckus which your daughter can play to her advantage by threatening to take her story to the media. About the only thing that a company hates more than a lawsuit, is bad press.
I agree with this. I suspect that Bitchula picks on your daughter because she can, the trademark of bullies worldwide. If telling Bitchula to back off doesn’t work, and talking to management doesn’t work, then your daughter’s last resort might be looking for a new job. It sucks complete ass, but sometimes you have to change jobs to save your sanity.
I agree with this. There has to be a definite moment when Daughter flat-out tells Bitchula to STOP NOW. Have that moment, record that it happened, have a witness there to note that it did happen. (I would personally forgo the profanity, but that’s just me). Once Daughter has firmly indicated that the commentary is unwelcome, then that’s just extra ammunition when she has to drag in management (which I imagine will eventually happen anyway.)
Otherwise, if you go to management first, Bitchula’s first comment when she’s dragged on the carpet will be “But, I was just being HELPFUL and I never IMAGINED that she would be offended or upset by my comments” and management will have to let her off the hook with a warning to stop. Now that card’s already played, so management will have to actually either do something or admit that they’re spineless weasels, whereupon your daughter can choose to work somewhere else.
I’ve passed on the information from this thread; now she’ll have to decide how to proceed. Ultimately, getting out of this place is the best solution and she is looking for another job.
Ugh, I hate that your daughter is having to put up with such childish behavior from a so called adult, especially at work!
Still, I’ll be honest in that I think it won’t do much good to bring it to the attention of management as far as dates and times and this-is-what-she-said type stuff. Even though it’s unfair, your daughter is going to be bringing them a problem (I’m assuming she’s somewhat new) for them to solve by addressing one of their lead salespeople. Totally unfair, but generally (it seems from watching these things play out over the years) that management rarely appreciates a problem being brought to them and (quite unfairly) the person bringing the problem is often the victim but still considered to be a complainer/someone who can’t handle personal interactions/troublemaker.
That’s not to say that she can’t say anything, but I just don’t think I’d rattle off a list of dates and times and I sure wouldn’t bring them a recording of the situation. That seems to take it quickly to THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM territory where it could be addressed by the excellent advice elbows gave in post #14.
I think if I were your daughter and this woman offered her stupid comments again I’d stop wherever I was no matter who was present and say something like “You seem to have an abnormal desire to appraise my physical attributes and report to me about them. Is there a reason, psychological or otherwise, that you are simply unable to keep your thoughts to yourself about things that don’t concern you? Is there something I can do to help you stop worrying so much about me and what I look like or is this something you’re going to need to work out on your own?” Obviously that’s a mouthful but I really would address it as soon as she said something again.
She’s counting on your daughter to say nothing while absorbing her abuse. Bullies usually are caught off guard if they are confronted about their behavior, especially if it’s done calmly and by throwing it back to them with a question. It puts her on the spot to defend her garbage. If that doesn’t work I would do what **elbows **suggested and go to my direct supervisor and ask if I was meeting dress attire requirements and if I need to wear makeup because I got some upsetting feedback from a co-worker and I wanted to be sure I was doing what I should.
If that doesn’t work I’d go with the dates and times and what was said route. Please let us know how it shakes out.
I think your daughter should line up another job, pronto, because even if her hag coworker quits commenting to her face, you have to know she will still slag her off being her back and nobody needs that.
So, line up new job. Last week of work daughter brings ice cream or something in to snack on. When nasty hag says something, daughter looks at her and says (loudly) ‘Shut yer trap, Cunt Face.’
Hilarity ensues. Its amazing how a well placed application of the c-bomb can change the direction of a conversation.
The assistant sales manager is creating a hostile workplace environment, :mad: and your daughter should be keeping a detailed log of all comments, dated, and initialed. (And taken home with her when not stashed in her purse where the offender or her allies cannot find it.) It is bad enough it is affecting your daughter’s behavior in that she is skipping meals which is NOT healthy, :eek: and not something she should be doing, especially since she’s trying not to gain weight. The last thing she needs to do is have her body decide it is starving and start storing away even more fat!
