Libertarian: Thank you for your reply. Is Hell, then, the cause or the result of the absence of love? What I mean is: is someone without love because they are in Hell or are they in Hell because they were without love during their earthly existence? Is it specifically love of God we are talking about or love also of people ( specific people or general benevolence)?
One point I would like to make to Joe_Cool and others. I’ve made no secret of the fact that I suffer from clinical depression. This weekend, because of events related to a religious retreat and my decision to leave my church, I was afflicted by it severely enough that I came quite close to needing to be admitted to the hospital, if not actually dying.
If I seem reluctant to condemn people to Hell, it’s for a very good reason. I’ve been there, or at least as one can get and still keep breathing. Ten years ago, I was admitted to a hospital close to catatonic and beyond the reach even of a man who loved me dearly. I know what it’s like to be falling, unable to feel anything but pain and fear, certainly unable to feel love. A decade ago, my priest managed to perform a miracle by channeling God’s love to me which got me out of that place. I would not wish that fate upon anyone, not my worst enemy, not even the sniper down in Maryland, and certainly not anyone on this Board!
Are we punished for our sins? Yes, but it is not for me to decide that punishment.
Respectfully,
CJ
While I won’t back this up with scripture I think I’ll take a stab at Jack as a Liar.
Let’s see how about his claims the Catholic church is behind Communism , Islam and the Rise of the Nazi party and the Holocaust .
Sorry but Mr. Chick has been quite liberal in lying about historical facts if he can use it to discredit others. His claims against the Catholic church alone warrent the title of Liar. The Church does not have a clean history but the lies of Chick and his Ilk are ridiculous.
Also claiming we had a Flintstone Past is goofy enough to pass as just ignorence. But His lies about evolution are blatant.
Or does bearing false witness only refer to speaking about the scriptures and not general Lying.
Joe_Cool:
so…homosexuality itself is a sin?
So…all homosexuals are going to hell, even though they can’t change their homosexuality?
“No personal insults”?
You just called some of us verbal rapists!
I am a member of the Jesus Crew, if you don’t mind.
Sounds like poly is a captain or something…
cjhoworth, please reassure me that you’re talking to your doctor about this. I’m sure you know depression isn’t something you can ignore, but you have been pretty down since last weekend. Take care, m’kay?
My take on religious tolerance… which, in some respects at least, isn’t so far away from Joe_Cool’s
One of the things I have to accept, when I worship God, is that I can’t know Him completely.
It’s just not possible. I’m finite, He’s infinite; I’m temporal, He’s eternal. There are aspects of Him I just haven’t got the equipment to understand.
Bearing this in mind, I reached the conclusion that, since He is infinite, He can be seen in an infinite number of ways[sup]*[/sup]… and I, being limited, have no way of judging whether one way is more valid than another (except in a very roundabout way, which I’ll get to later).
I can try to listen to Him in my heart, and discover which way is right for me, but there is no reason why that way should be right for everyone else… since we’re all different, it seems unlikely that it would be.
I think this is consistent with the teachings of Christ, as reported in the Bible. He tells us not to judge others, but to love them - even to love our enemies. So, it seems to me that tolerance - at the very least! - is expected of me as a Christian, even for those who are not Christians, and reject the Christian way.
He also says (John 14:6) " I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." How do I reconcile this with tolerance for people of other religions? Well, I see it like this: God has (from my limited human viewpoint) many aspects. One of those is the one that reaches out, in love, for us, so that we can come to know Him as well as we can. That is the aspect that I know as Jesus. But someone else can know Him by a different name.
If we reach out to God, we will find Him reaching out to us. In whatever direction we reach. His love and mercy are infinite; if you truly call on Him, He will answer you… even if your lips are speaking another name, He hears what’s in your heart. And no one else does. Certainly, you can turn away from God - but not just by seeking the Truth under another name. You can follow, or create, an idol which you love more than you do God… or you can follow an idol which, for you, represents the Truth behind creation, and God, Who is that Truth, is not mocked.
Can we judge whether someone is following a lie or the Truth? Not really - God sees into people’s hearts, we don’t. But we do have, if not a hard and fast rule, at least a guideline. (Matthew 7.16-18) “You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.” If someone is living their life in a way which does good in the world, we can guess (though we might still be wrong) that they’re all right with God, no matter what their professed beliefs. Conversely, if someone does harm… we cannot condemn them or assume they’re damned, but we can, at least, try to persuade them to do otherwise (and work against whatever harm they’re doing; I remain convinced that the main reason God allows evil in the world is so that we can fight it).
So, as far as I can see… anyone who does good in the world is probably my brother or sister in Christ. Anybody who does bad in the world… could still be my brother or sister in Christ, but I can legitimately question their behaviour.
[sup]*[/sup]For example, as “She”, “It” and “Them”. I’m just using the form of words with which I’m most familiar.
My take on religious tolerance… which, in some respects at least, isn’t so far away from Joe_Cool’s
One of the things I have to accept, when I worship God, is that I can’t know Him completely.
It’s just not possible. I’m finite, He’s infinite; I’m temporal, He’s eternal. There are aspects of Him I just haven’t got the equipment to understand.
Bearing this in mind, I reached the conclusion that, since He is infinite, He can be seen in an infinite number of ways[sup]*[/sup]… and I, being limited, have no way of judging whether one way is more valid than another (except in a very roundabout way, which I’ll get to later).
I can try to listen to Him in my heart, and discover which way is right for me, but there is no reason why that way should be right for everyone else… since we’re all different, it seems unlikely that it would be.
I think this is consistent with the teachings of Christ, as reported in the Bible. He tells us not to judge others, but to love them - even to love our enemies. So, it seems to me that tolerance - at the very least! - is expected of me as a Christian, even for those who are not Christians, and reject the Christian way.
He also says (John 14:6) " I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." How do I reconcile this with tolerance for people of other religions? Well, I see it like this: God has (from my limited human viewpoint) many aspects. One of those is the one that reaches out, in love, for us, so that we can come to know Him as well as we can. That is the aspect that I know as Jesus. But someone else can know Him by a different name.
If we reach out to God, we will find Him reaching out to us. In whatever direction we reach. His love and mercy are infinite; if you truly call on Him, He will answer you… even if your lips are speaking another name, He hears what’s in your heart. And no one else does. Certainly, you can turn away from God - but not just by seeking the Truth under another name. You can follow, or create, an idol which you love more than you do God… or you can follow an idol which, for you, represents the Truth behind creation, and God, Who is that Truth, is not mocked.
Can we judge whether someone is following a lie or the Truth? Not really - God sees into people’s hearts, we don’t. But we do have, if not a hard and fast rule, at least a guideline. (Matthew 7.16-18) “You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.” If someone is living their life in a way which does good in the world, we can guess (though we might still be wrong) that they’re all right with God, no matter what their professed beliefs. Conversely, if someone does harm… we cannot condemn them or assume they’re damned, but we can, at least, try to persuade them to do otherwise (and work against whatever harm they’re doing; I remain convinced that the main reason God allows evil in the world is so that we can fight it).
So, as far as I can see… anyone who does good in the world is probably my brother or sister in Christ. Anybody who does bad in the world… could still be my brother or sister in Christ, but I can legitimately question their behaviour.
[sup]*[/sup]For example, as “She”, “It” and “Them”. I’m just using the form of words with which I’m most familiar.
[Note Jew posting. I am not a Christian. Nor, do I play one on TV]
The Bible is not all that clear on homosexuality. The English translation of the original Hebrew is usually “abomination”. The word toevah does mean abomination, however, it has a ritual connotation. The sense is the same as pigs being “unclean”.
Further, (must do search. will post again with cites) there is some evidence that the long list of prohibitions, and dietary laws was created by a group of Jewish scholars to prevent the Jews from assimilating into Helenic culture. Thus, the rationale for the laws becomes ‘Don’t do this because other cultures do it’-no exercising naked, no drinking wine made by gentiles, no eating off plates at a gentile’s house etc.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. "The Bible says" and "God says" are not the same.[Note Jew posting. I am not a Christian. Nor, do I play one on TV]
The Bible is not all that clear on homosexuality. The English translation of the original Hebrew is usually “abomination”. The word toevah does mean abomination, however, it has a ritual connotation. The sense is the same as pigs being “unclean”.
Further, (must do search. will post again with cites) there is some evidence that the long list of prohibitions, and dietary laws was created by a group of Jewish scholars to prevent the Jews from assimilating into Helenic culture. Thus, the rationale for the laws becomes ‘Don’t do this because other cultures do it’-no exercising naked, no drinking wine made by gentiles, no eating off plates at a gentile’s house etc.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. "The Bible says" and "God says" are not the same.Jesus taught that there is no difference between the love of God and the love of people. It is impossible to love God without loving people. People are made in God’s image, and even the very least of them, Jesus taught, are God’s own earthly representations. He said that when we have visited those in prison, we have visited Him. When we have ministered to the sick, we have ministered to Him. And so on. Likewise, when we have ignored the beggar, we have ignored Him. And when we have condemned the sinner, it is God whom we have condemned.
Each of us has our own private moral journey, and mine is to learn how to love as God loves. I fall short, but it is what I seek, and so I will find it.
Just as darkness is what happens when we turn off the light, Hell is what happens when we turn off the love. Like God, we are free moral agents. And like God, we may choose good or evil. The whole essence of our lives is as a moral journey, a morality play where the universe and all that is in it has only the significance of providing context.
There’s a little old lady begging on the street corner. In truth, it is merely atoms, and nothing of consequence. But significance arises when we make our moral decision. What will we do about the old lady? Help her? Ignore her? Steel the change from her cup?
God and evil are born in the heart. We hold in our heart that which we most value. Jesus said, “Where your treasure is, there your heart is also.” Those who treasure love already are in Heaven. Those who do not already are in Hell.
Sure does…In response to Polycarp saying, “No two people have the same god. That is, their conceptions of who (their) god is are different,” you said, “
Well, I practice Poly -theism…”
Yes, I know it was a joke. But there’s a reason why phrases like “the Polycarp crew” exist and are used.
And surely a Biblical Literalist will understand that the bible very clearly says that homosexual behavior is a sin, right?
And I’m not condemning anybody to hell. I’m simply a messenger. Every one of us deserves hell, since not one of us can live up to God’s standards. And therefore everybody is condemned to hell, unless they accept Jesus, his deity, and his gift of salvation. Regardless of whether they are straight, gay, thief, humanitarian, murderer, or doctor.
and vanilla, regarding “verbal rapists”…You were there participating in His4ever’s public burning, throwing matches along with the others. You did read the threads that you posted on, didn’t you? I’ll reread the threads again to see if I mischaracterized you and included you in that list mistakenly. But it most definitely took place.
Well, if God sets standards that He knows (omniscience, remember) that we can’t match without him cheating on our behalf, then I, as a free agent, declare God to be a poofter.
Interesting thing: In this universe, on this planet, there are only a very few souls that have accepted Jesus. If everyone else will be joining me in hell, then I will be meeting people (to use the term broadly) long after all Christians are in heaven. You know what stir craziniess is like? Add eternity onto that, with a finite, fixed number of Christains to interact with, and Heaven sounds a worse torment than Hell by far.
Joe_Cool wrote:
Whosever says that any man is condemned to hell has already rejected Jesus, His deity, and His gift of salvation.
This makes a lot of sense to me. Suppose an alien were to use a mind control ray on Polycarp to make him forget everything he knows about God, Jesus, and Christianity. I bet he’d still be a kind, loving person… and so, therefore, his God is a kind, loving God. I wonder who is creating whom in their own image.
Cross out the “heaven” bit, and it works for me.
I’m not so sure about that. I mean, yeah, some people (no need to enumerate who) have assaulted her with great vituperativeness, but to lay that at the feet of the SDMB as a whole (even with the “for the most part” disclaimer) is somewhat disingenuous.
I think I almost agree with this. It’s like dalovindj said – EVERYONE picks and chooses from the Bible what they like, and they somehow try to downplay what they don’t like. Hell, I’m not a Christian, and I do it. I’m a big fan of Jesus’s second commandment, the so-called Golden Rule, but I can do without almost everything else in there.
And I think I’ll end with Libertarian, because there’s lots of interesting stuff to chew on there.
**
Are those decisions irrevocable? Can I opt out of Heaven and go to Hell? Can I decide, once in Hell, that I was wrong and scoot up to Heaven? Can I visit Uncle Jesus on the weekends? (Pardon the facetiousness; it’s just my manner. The questions are serious).
**
Why is there no middle ground? You say, “If you love, it’s Heaven. If you don’t love, well, that’s your choice. Welcome to Hell, where no one will force you to love.” What about Option C, which I imagine is a lot like this world? No one ever forces you to love, but you can. Also, you can hold your love back, for whatever reason.
Quix
**
Sorry, DocCathode, I’ve got to call you out on this.
Firstly, the word toevah pretty much does mean abomination.
Secondly, the prohibition against (male) homosexuality is in the same section as the prohibition against various forms of incest. It could well be concluded from this that just as the Torah is clearly against incest, it is likewise clearly against homosexual behavior.
**
You’re right, but your application is wrong. There were a number of decrees in later generations to prevent assimilation. However, the prohibition against homosexual behavior is not among them. Examples of later prohibitions include (as you’ve mentioned) drinking the wine of idolators, eating their bread and others. These prohibitions are not expressly stated in the Torah. The prohibition against homosexual behavior, OTOH, is.
Zev Steinhardt
Joe_Cool, if Jack Chick isn’t a liar and a bearer of false witness, then I’m Marie of Roumania.
What about his so-called former Jesuit, Alberto Rivera-a well known and proven fraud?
EVERYTHING he has said about Catholicism is a lie.
Quixotic78 wrote:
I take no offense. I’m familiar with your manner, and I quite like it.
It’s easy to confuse a moral decision with an intellectual one. Spirit simply IS. In an eternal sense. Since you enjoy chewing on interesting stuff, these three things are true simultaneously: you’ve already made your decision; you are making it only just now; and you haven’t yet made it. Everything moral is from God’s reference frame, which is eternal. For God, the universe is not yet begun, is ongoing, and has already finished — all at once.
There is no middle ground because God is perfect. In fact, the moral imperative Jesus gave is “Be perfect”. God IS love. Therefore, it’s not that there’s a shut-off valve. It’s sort of the same reason that you can’t be a human part of the time and a baboon the rest of the time. Jesus said, “In all truth I tell you, before Abraham existed, I am.”
Where’s the panicking smiley?
I expected to have to provide cites.
I did not expect to debate Talmud with Rebbe Steinhardt.
Oy. Gevalt.
Problem#1- I can’t beat Steinhardt! It’s like being in a singing contest with Pavarotti, or an engineering challenge against Anthracite.
Problem#2-Usually when I’m in this type of situation, I get help from the SDMB. One of the Refusniks in the neighborhood was teaching me Talmud. But I sensed something was wrong. It was then I found out he was from Chelm.
Problem#3- I admit- I can’t speak Hebrew. I can translate the words into the proper sounds, but I know almost no vocabulary or grammar.
Hmmm, maybe I can get Esprix to convert and help me out. Since the death of Sammy Davis, the Jewish nation has become much less fabulous.
Joe Cool:
It’s funny you put it that way, since I’ve long maintained that all this stuff about fallen angels and demonic underworlds is just a load of “Tolkien”, that is, it’s fantasy literature; it’s mythology.
I think people have every right to peruse the Bible while using their judgement to decide what to believe and what to reject. Of course it would be wrong to be self-serving in picking and choosing moral precepts based on how they affect you. But it’s also wrong to accept them uncritically; that’s superstition. Besides, much of the Bible not moral precepts but assertions about history and cosmology which bear no resemblance to reality. Then too there is spirituality and prophecy which holds out hope that there is more in store for us than this motal coil. Skepticism and open-mindedness are two sides of the same coin and both are indispensible took in pursuing the truth. The trick is to separate the wheat from the chaff without throwing out the baby with the bathwater (not to mention mixing your metaphors).
But Satan and Hell? That’s just a video game based on a novel.