It may have been said 4 pages before this post, but this really sums it up (generally) for what us guys think (at least it does for me):
A plain looking woman who says “Yes” is much more beautiful in our eyes than a flawless beauty saying “No”.
Actually I find this thread positively warm and cozy compared to some of the other threads broaching these subjects. And I know you are feeling pretty frustrated with this thread already, but I feel that nobody has really been as hostile or defensive in this thread as you have. And I say that coming from a position of total respect for you as a poster on this board. I think you’re in a position of extreme hurt right now due to the impact porn has had on your relationship, and it is affecting the way you’re interpreting these posts. I hope that doesn’t make you feel even more frustrated, but I don’t think fet… um, Hostile Dialect has come anywhere near hostility in this thread. Um, you know, except for the name.
And yes, you are correct, my husband is not interested in porn. He has never really seen anything sexy about people he doesn’t know (he is the same way with celebs, they just don’t do anything for him.) He figured since it’s not real, why bother? He was also uncomfortable with the objectification of women.
And since meeting me, his disinterest has turned to disgust. He views porn as demeaning and encouraging the degradation of women. He was emphatically against having a stripper at his bachelor party even though all his friends wanted it and I told him I could care less. But in order to comprehend how a guy could have such negative feelings about that sort of thing, you sort of have to understand that our sexual relationship is burdened by… well, by me. I’ve got issues. This affects the way he perceives all sexual relationships. Every time one of his buddies riffs off a cheap sex joke, he feels the sting of how they take for granted what we ain’t got. I think compared to the struggles we’ve had and the intensity of what we’ve gone through together, porn is like some kind of sick joke to him, something that cheapens something we hold sacred and that is forever out of our reach.
Don’t get me wrong, I fully believe that if he’d never met me, he still wouldn’t give a rat’s heiney for porn. It’s just that due to the circumstances of our relationship, his mild dislike has become acute loathing.
When I use a vibe or if I’m really turned on, I don’t really need that much time–five is about right. Sometimes I draw it out longer (or you know, we’ve got those awesome multiple orgasms, so things can go on for a while). Now, I pretty much never come from penetrative sex, so a guy can go on for five, ten, fifteen minutes and nothing’s going to happen.
Someone earlier pointed out that it’s not like the people in porn aren’t real. So I apologize for using “real people” in my thread title–I couldn’t think of a better way of putting it. But I guess what I’m saying is that there are some people in the real world who are going to like doing things that the “porn people” enjoy. Some women will come fast from penetrative sex, some will enjoy degrading talk, etc. And of course, some won’t.
But then, I guess that’s the point of treating people like people, and not like stereotypes. Does porn create those expectations? I’m not sure…I don’t think it has in my experience. You said that your friends’ husbands’ dependency on porn in many cases is hurting their marriages. Is that because of preference for porn, or is it that these husbands assume their wives will act the same way as porn actresses in movies?
Okay, you know that if any vampires frequent this board, you’re screwed, right? 
I’m not anti-makeup, but I don’t think that makeup all the time is necessary. I do find it odd that some women have such low regard for themselves that they cannot step out of the door to pick up the newspaper or check the mail without a full face of makeup on, but I don’t automatically feel that a woman who does so is deserving of disrespect because of her choice. I just don’t take shit over not wearing makeup every day from some of my male coworkers. What makes me “liberated” when I wear makeup or don’t is that I do not depend upon the approval of others based on how I look.
The real world taught me that some men have penises that look suspiciously like deformed crayons and that some guys could use a little help in bed. The “porn cunnilingus” does appear to be pretty prevalent among some inexperienced guys, and they always seemed amazed when it didn’t quite work out as they planned. Sometimes they can be taught, and sometimes it’s not worth the effort.
I think that’s a heavy part of some of the attitudes displayed. At 24, I personally cannot relate to the idea that the fantasy is so much more appealing than the reality that one is indifferent to an availability to real sex when porn is available. Well, I can’t relate to it not having to do with the dynamics of intimacy and communication without there being factors that are more significant than the availability of porn. Is it really such a novelty to these few men? I certainly haven’t met any guys around my age who are so obsessed with porn that they’d deny offers of real sex instead. [sub]The oddest thing I think I’ve come across with friends and acquaintances was a friend’s roommate; he apparently had a penchant for masturbating to horror movies. ::shrugs:: He wasn’t hurting anybody, he had a normal sex life when he had a sex life, and apparently he was more interested in masturbating to monster movies than to people-on-people violence. Fantasy and reality didn’t intersect.[/sub]
There’s also appears to be a LOT of hurt that’s blamed solely on the man’s reaction to the porn and, though we haven’t gotten into detail into your friends’ problems involving porn and their SOs, we know that you are disgusted enough by one video (out of probably a much wider variety of porn that he looks at) that it’s more or less shut off the arousal switch. There are things that I’d be weirded out by if I caught my fiancé masturbating to on the internet, but I don’t think I’d find it to be an act of betrayal and feel like I was being forced into his fantasies by finding out that bit of information. (Cheating, OTOH, is something that would be an unforgivable act in my book. Weird porn, not so much.)
Just to be clear, I don’t begrudge anyone (of any gender) for doing any of those things. Hell, I’ve worn makeup and had all of my nails painted at one time or another. It’s just that wearing a large amount of makeup is a turnoff for me. But there are lots of other weird little things that turn me on and off, just like everyone else.
Sure. Why not? I’ve undergone painful events in relationships too, and the onus is on me to get over it, no matter how unjust those events may have been. C’est la vie.
The fact that you don’t accept the rebuttals as part of a valid discussion doesn’t mean that no discussion has taken place.
Personally, I can’t imagine being enough of a saint to put up with a partner who would rather masturbate than have sex with me, for more than a month or two, tops. Maybe I would put up with it if they acknowledged that they had a serious problem and sought professional help for it, and showed progress. MMV and apparently does.
People are being axe-murdered by members of their immediate family. People are being date-raped by people they trust. Children are being molested by uncles, priests and teachers. All kinds of people are being shot by robbers. Spouses are being run over by loved ones in SUVs. What of true intimacy? I would say that just because something is happening to a minority of the population doesn’t mean that it foretells the impending doom of a basic instinct like intimacy, which can only go away if we evolve it out of the human genome–which doesn’t seem very likely to me.
I suspect you’ve got a large part of the answer. Maybe the combination of a 70s/80s understanding of porn with a 21st-century Internet connection bursting with porn of all kinds is at fault. I don’t have much except vague feelings to support this, but I’m just throwing it out there as a possibility.
I can’t help but think that a saturation of fast-food porn would eventually lead most normal people to crave more intimacy and personal interaction. Porn is entertainment, it’s not fullfilling.
To continue the fast-food analogy, just because Bigmacs are easy to get and provide a quick and easy feeling of satisfaction, most adults aren’t going to prefer Bigmacs three meals a day, seven days a week. Most adults are still going to prefer a balanced, well-prepared meal with a little variety. The presence of a McDonalds on every street corner isn’t going to change that.
Now, to continue the analogy even further, there are people with addictive traits that will take advantage of a McDonalds on every street corner and spurn the opportunity for more substantial fare. There are people that are just lazy and will turn into the drive-thru. But, closing Mcdonalds isn’t going to change these folks.
As far as porn being harmful to a relationship because it replaces intimacy of creates a desire for satisfaction without the intimacy, the same could be said of the internet in general. In fact, it could be said about this very message board. How many people fill their needs for personal interaction on this board rather than with their significant other in the next room?
I am not a sexist or ethnocentric, but I do think men and women view porn differently. Social values need to be defined by both men and women in society.
I think the plethora of internet porn along with mindless, salacious television coarsens the culture. It boils down to media control and prophet. There may be a generational difference in how the X’rs and millennia’s view the saturation of internet porn. Even My Space is being hijacked by sex driven advertisements.
Interesting topic
I think you mean “profit”, and are you trying to say that people who make porn are intentionally attempting to seize control of our culture?
Even MySpace? Not that surprising, since MySpace’s second function as a dating site is very thinly-veiled. (Age, gender, “About Me” and “Interests” are among the first things you see on someone’s profile. Come on.)
“Sex driven advertisements”? Wow, that is a novel development for our culture!
I wish I was as optimistic as you. Fast food makes money, as does fast food porn, which I find boring compared to the films with actual plots from 30 or so years ago. But the fast food porn has driven out the good porn. Every time I sample porn these days I’m disgusted - not from the sex, but from the bad writing.
I don’t watch a lot of porn…but was porn ever really well-written? And when you say actual plots, do you mean it was good the way sometimes “Friends” or “Everybody Loves Raymond” was good or good like “The Godfather” good? Or even “Legally Blonde” good?
You should watch Pirates- it’s actually got a moderately interesting plot with, well, like, Lifetime Movie level acting (which is good for porn).
Dear Abby and the like are full of cases of women who refuse their husbands and men who refuse their wives. Even though you aren’t saying porn makes men do this, do you think fewer men (and women) would if all porn disappeared today? Maybe your friend’s husband would be off playing chess, or reading comics, or watching TV, and be just as unavailable.
I’m not sure how you can distinguish the impact of porn on our culture, since porn is a part of our culture, and has been since Roman times and no doubt before. Sometimes it is beneath the surface, but it is always there.
And men, unlike Bruce Willis, can’t drive cars off of buildings and fall 10 stories and survive to get up and take out 20 bad guys. I give women credit for not expecting that from men. I don’t know a single man in my 55 years, porn viewers or not, who thought real women were like that. I’ll admit men have misplaced expectations because of the sorry state of sex education in our culture. And British culture - viz Richard Thompson’s “Read About Love,” a song funny and sad about this very subject.
I’m curious how porn is pervasive these days. Now, admitting there is sex, unlike the twin bed TV shows of my youth, is definitely pervasive, but admitting that people have sex is far different from porn. More easily accessible, yes, but pervasive? Gambling is also. Some people have addictive personalities, and are going to find something to be addicted to and spend time with in preference to people. Tom Lehrer satirized addiction to porn in 1965. (“I’m a market they can’t glut.”) There are only so many ways two people can have sex, especially with the lack of plots today. I’d argue that someone who needs subscriptions to 50 websites and a 2 gig library has an issue that goes beyond porn. I’ve got 6,000 sf books, at least a 1,000 of which I haven’t read, and still I buy. It feels good, but it’s cheap and socially acceptable, so I’m ok. Do you think there is no example of a man with lots of porn who has a good relationship with his wife?
I actually looked up a plot summary, and it left me cold - and we love pirates in general. Ah for the days of Flesh Gordon, sex and plot and humor and special effects!
Oh, my friend, Pirates has the hahas, it has the plot, AND it is the most expensive porn ever made- so there are even fancy pants CGI effects and period costumes. Seriously, it’s pretty damned impressive for a porn. Actually, in Blockbuster they rent the R rated version, further proving there is a bit of a plot in there.
I’m not saying it is an Oscar-level masterpiece or anything, but it’s pretty darned good (like I said, somewhere around a Lifetime movie- though I’d say a better). Most of the girls in it are the plasticy blonde types though.
Personally, my friends and I have a Pirates viewing night every once in a while where we all gather 'round and watch Pirates. It brings the funnies- much like all porn. (Of course, there is the whole, ya know, porn element. . .which is good for other times when the friends aren’t around 
)
I’ve heard good things about the quality, and I know it won awards, and my dislike of the plot is purely personal taste. And don’t talk to me about R rated versions. I saw Flesh when it was in theaters in X, and rented it when it came out on video in R. If the sex is integrated into the plot, R ratings destroy the plot. I understand the X footage has been lost.
It sounds like people are talking about a now somewhat narrow spectrum of porn. There are ALL KINDS of porn-
Are college age women upset because their metabolism doesn’t allow them to get heavy enough to look like ‘BBW’ type women? Or they can’t find a Fursuit that matches their purse? Come on!
What person is depressed they can’t act out the ‘Two Girls One Cup’ video?
Good point, and exactly what I’ve been trying to say for a while in this thread, but more concise and (hopefully) more noticeable.
And I have to say, after you mentioned it I finally Googled Two Girls One Cup. :eek: I’m tellin ya, I’ve looked at some nasty things on that Internet…but that takes the cake. ETA: So to speak.
While I agree that the video in question is, in fact, incredibly traumatizing, I don’t know if it is the worst of the worst.
I mean, I’ve seen some amazingly bad stuff on the internet. My roommate and I like to play a game when we’re bored that involves us Googling the worst things we can think of, usually in the form of weird word combinations. ____________ Porn. Like, for instance, Nacho Porn.
No, I don’t think the porn industry is trying to control the culture. I am saying that U.S. citizens have lost control of the airways, broadcasting, newsprint, and now broadband. The internet is complex because it liberates access to information but presents new issues pertaining to privacy, copyright, and cybercrime. As paid subscribers, internet users are losing the battle for intellectual freedom and a democratic voice over digital content.
The corporate conglomerates view the internet as a cash cow driven by advertising dollars. The advertising methods used on the internet like **ad click **offers no incentive for the advertiser or website operators to consider minors. If anything, it encourages all traffic instead of targeting the adult industry market.
My Space is not a dating service. It is an online community dominated by young people, particularly teenagers. It seems My Space is less concerned about its users and more concerned about profit. Yes, I meant profit. :smack: