Thank you, CatFight–for saying what I’ve been trying to get across for several pages, without much success, it seems. The only thing I would add is that I question the impact on porn on our culture; and I’d like to talk about porn critically, but that is not to be.
** Hentor**–you are misconstruing the discussion and questioning of porn. I’m tired of this and feel like I’m beating a dead horse here. For the last time: your analogy re the 3 Stooges does not exemplify what some of us (primarily me) are attempting to communicate. That’s too simplistic; it’s a cop out. I think I’m done here and I can’t help but feel that what people will take away is that I am anti-porn and think porn is Bad. This is not true.
Hmm. I wonder why. For instance, you just said that CatFight expressed your opinion very well, but she said:
This is exactly what I’m saying about expressing the idea of porn making people behave a certain way. If you’ve really come across a guy like this, educate him or move on. But I’m particularly dubious about these guys existing, particularly the “cunnilingus ‘for the camera’” bit. Who’s doing this? What cliched lines? All they say in porn is “ooh baby, fuck yeah!”
And hoping for someone to come within five minutes? Why not? If the average guy lasts about 2 to 5 minutes, it seems pretty reasonable to hope for the woman to orgasm within 5 minutes. On the other hand, this seems to be based on an ignorance of porn, since the female orgasm is essentially absent in most porn. Now, lying there moaning and screaming - yeah, that’s common. But of course, if all these guys are running around thinking that porn reflects reality, they’re going to be very disappointed in themselves for a lot of reasons.
If you need longer than he can last, you’re going to have to let him know what else he can do. That’s true, however, regardless of whether he’s ever seen porn or not.
I think, eleanorigby, that I may have not understood what you were trying to say, sure. But I think you may not fully understand what you are trying to say here, too. You seem to go back and forth on a number of things (porn has bad effects/no I’m not saying porn has bad effects; porn makes guys behave in strange ways/no, that’s too simplistic; I’m anti-porn/I’m not anti-porn; this is a painful topic/no it’s not based on any emotional baggage of mine). Clearly it is a difficult topic, and I’m not trying to make light of that. I just don’t think you can fully blame others if they seem to misunderstand where you’re coming from on this.
They exist. It makes sense that what is performed in porn is for show rather than pleasure (or else you wouldn’t be able to see much at all. Hence all the tongue flicking and labial sucking), and that some guys may use porn as a reference when going down on a woman. As for the porn speak, it is hard to describe other than, well, I know it when I hear it (ha). It is totally out of the moment and cheesy and rarely speaks to the situation at hand, as opposed to spontaneous dirty talk or giving helpful hints at pleasure. But you’re right- after encountering this type of boy, one usually schools him or moves on.
Well, there’s hope and then there’s reality. If a guy assumes women cum quickly, ignoring or simply not seeking out all evidence to the contrary, he’s setting himself up for disappointment. And her. (while you’re right that women’s orgasms are not priority number one in most porn, I am assuming, perhaps naively, that their ‘Ohh baby yeah yeeeah that’s it oooooh!’ dialogue and scream right as the man is cumming is meant to signify the woman’s orgasm. Something else that’s difficult to translate to the screen. Which might also result in some guys not understanding why women simply whimper or stay silent when cumming, leading to the dreaded ‘Did you cum?’ question)
Male here… the only possible problem I see on my part is that porn tends to give you the idea that sex is a bit more theatrical and varied than it tends to be in reality. I went into my first sexual experience with a huge mental catalog of things to try. I expected that the girl would be eager to try, and probably would enjoy, all of these exotic positions and techniques. Meanwhile the girls entered the situation with little of this knowledge and none of these expectations.
(Now bear in mind I’m talking college years in the early-mid 90’s, so things may be different nowadays or with older women. I understand now that thongs are ubiquitous, threesomes are routine, and anal sex is the new blowjob. Or perhaps I’ve been misled from reading message boards like this here one).
Anyhoo, it resulted in disappointment for all parties concerned, with the women feeling defensive and defective, and me feeling vaguely cheated in some way. And y’know, this is bad, m’kay? But is it any worse than both parties entering with zero knowledge or expectations at all?
Fortunately, since then I’ve made it past fool’s hill as far as the reality of porn. I have learned to look at both porn and reality with a keen appreciation for what each one is and isn’t. My sex life still occupies both domains, and there’s plenty of virility left over for both of them.
I rarely see women come in porn, and when I do, it’s not after 5 minutes or fucking. The problem you’re describing is simply inexerpienced and/or self-centered men who don’t understand how the female body works. And hell, a good number of females don’t, either. But to blame it on porn is ridiculous.
I personally think that porn might be a symptom of a larger problem–if a problem exists at all. Despite the fact that sex seems to be more prominent and apparent in society, discussing sex is still pretty taboo. There are still schools where sex-ed consists of “the best protection is to never have sex” mixed with a good dose of urban legend (ie, condoms don’t protect from AIDS etc). It’s not that porn is sending a “bad” message. It’s that porn is the only message, and I hardly think that’s porn’s fault.
How many parents feel comfortable having open and frank discussions about sexuality with their children? How many parents would be comfortable providing film or literature that deals with sexuality in a realistic manner? I think most people are happy to let television and the Internet educate their children.
I think a lot of people are isolated in their sexuality, surrounded by bad information, or alone with no information at all. I see this all the time. And it’s not because there’s too much porn in the world. It’s because in many ways, we’re still a puritan nation, happy to repress anything carnal.
Quite frankly, I think it’s pretty hot. I never seek out non-con stuff when it comes to masochism, but I love to read about people who love to be degraded, “raped”, or humiliated. Why? I don’t know. I don’t really care to know, either. I’m not hurting anybody, and last time I checked, there are no Thought Police and I don’t have to justify the sorts of things that get me off. I don’t think it’s a sign that somebody is unhealthy. It’s a big, big world with lots of kinks–if you’re not causing harm to anybody, what is the difference?
Plus, there’s a big gulf between behavior that is acceptable in pornography (ie fantasy) and behavior that is never acceptable in real life. You turn to fantasy because you need an outlet, not because you think it’s ok/normal to behave that way. For example, I frequent a gay website that has really, really hot videos–and they’re all “barebacking.” I know it’s not cool to have sex without protection. When I write erotic scenes, my characters always use protection. When I have sex, I always use protection. I would always encourage any of my friends to use protection. I would buy my youngest sisters condoms myself if I thought she was sexually active.
And yet…I find those videos to be extremely hot and I love to watch them. Why? I have no idea. Maybe because I know it somehow is forbidden? But real life consideration doesn’t need to intrude on my fantasy. And I don’t think people who indulge their fantasies through written/visual means have anything wrong with them. I especially don’t buy the premise that it destroys relationships/intimacy/etc. I think a lack of communication will do that. I think behaving as though sexuality is a dirty secret will do that. I think the willful misinformation given to children and willful ignorance will do that. But I don’t think indulging in sexual fantasy and sexual gratification is worse than indulging in the fantasy of being a superhero, or indulging in the fantasy of being a rock star, or indulging in the fantasy of being a princess, or anything else that gets people through the night.
Why should they know that tongue flicking is bad? Why is tongue flicking bad? Just because you don’t like it? Most guys have no reference for how to go down on a girl. I actually did - I once found a sex handbook in an older brother’s room that described all kinds of different techniques. I still recall one being called “The velvet buzzsaw,” which involved guess what? Lots of tongue flicking. Geez - too bad I didn’t have you there to tell me it was a bad thing to do. [ETA: Of course, what works for my wife really wasn’t in that book at all - kinda had to figure that out together, since she didn’t know all that well either. The trial and error was a lot of fun, and I’m glad that she wasn’t simply clucking her tongue at my obvious “cluelessness.”
Why is that so dreaded? And again, I don’t think porn has anything to do with asking if a partner had an orgasm. If a guy were really mimicking porn, he wouldn’t even think to ask such a question. All they really think they should do is nut in someone’s eye, right?
It actually sounds like you have a good number of prescriptions about sexual behavior that you expect guys to know about in advance. Sounds like a lot of pressure to me.
Ok, see here is where I will concede expectations made by porn for some guys- though, I don’t think it is necessarily a detriment. Most men think all women can cum (and mind blowingly so) from good ol’ fashion sex.
Before I have sex with someone, I always tell them that I have never orgasmed that way and likely never will- just so we can all be on the same page and they can make other plans to give me my jollies. Usually, they all say, “Oh, come on! Every girl I’ve been with has.” To which I say, “Well, maybe you got lucky girls, but odds are they were faking, bud!” Then they get sad, but say, “Oh, well you just haven’t been with me yet, I can make you do it!” So I laugh, tell them to give it their best shot, but to also realize they’ve got to do a little somethin’ else, too.
Now, the thing is, they all have their expectations from porn that all women cum in an earth shattering manner from straight penatration- which simply is not anywhere near a fact (isn’t it something like only 10% of women can orgasm off of just that?). BUT, I’ve never had a guy refuse to do anything else or have an actual problem with it, just because that’s what they had previously expected. Frankly, part of me blames this problem on women who are clearly faking (there is NO WAY out of all the guys I’ve been with, EVERY girl they’ve been with other than me was able to cum like a porn star from penetration) more than I blame the porn.
Anywho, like I said, guys are more than receptive to change their ways and we always have fun, even though they had previously learned otherwise from porn (and probably lying girls).
And ya know, porn taught me that all penises are big and pretty. The real world has shattered my dreams in that regard :(.
I think not wearing makeup equals liberation IF that is the woman’s choice. I think people wrongly assume that not wearing makeup means a person is liberated, but that isn’t necessarily the case.
And you’re totally right- most of us that wear makeup do it because, well, it’s fun and WE like it. Only once can I think of ever wearing my makeup a certain way for a guy- and that was because my boyfriend was fond of one particular way I did my eyeliner sometimes; so, for him, I did that type of eyeliner more often than the rest. I still liked my eyeliner that way though and if I didn’t, I wouldn’t have worn it that way regardless of how he liked it.
To me, liberation is the CHOICE to wear make up or not to wear makeup- without judgments from others about one’s femininity or even intelligence (I, often, am dismissed as a dingbat because I wear makeup, do my hair, have a Coach purse, etc.-- there are about 100 others reasons to consider me a dingbat, much for valid than those, thankyouverymuch! ). Sadly, that time hasn’t come, as has been demonstrated in the thread. Some people are simply aghast that someone wouldn’t wear makeup, yet others are aghast that someone WOULD wear makeup.
Oh and, for what it’s worth: I see nothing wrong with the “Have you cum?” question. Sometimes I’m loud and crazy, sometimes I’m quiet- when I’m quiet, I’m glad you ask, it shows ya care.
Wow, this is some thread. Reading it has me incredibly frustrated, because I want to respond to about forty posts at once. I’ll try to be coherent.
I actually think a lot of people are hearing you just fine - they just don’t agree with you. You keep saying over and over that you want to ask the question - does porn have a negative effect on relationships? - and what’s wrong with asking? Nothing’s wrong with asking. Here’s my answer:
No.
I, too, know people who have gotten so into porn that they no longer engage in normal sexual relationships with real people. The proportion of the population that does this is vanishingly small. I also know a person whose marriage dissolved because she became so intensely involved with an online role playing video game that she came to prefer the company of her virtual friends to that of her husband. Relationships break down because one party can’t stop drinking, and comes to prefer the false reality of constant inebriation to the real reality in which his or her partner exists.
The point is, all of these behaviors are pathological. The fact that these things occur - they’re incredibly uncommon, but they do occur - does not say anything in particular about the impact of porn, video games, or alcohol on relationships, per se. If you eliminated video games forever, the people who start to see Everquest as real life would find some other pathological way to screw up their relationships.
Well, yes, and Sharon Stone showed her genitals in Basic Instinct, which wouldn’t have passed muster 10 years before that. What does that have to do with anything? Where is the evidence that increased consumption of porn leads to more provocative pictures on MySpace, beyond a strictly temporal association?
My thesis is that porn has no significant effect on “relations between men and women” as an overall concept, although it may have incidental impact on “relations between a man and a woman.” Your hypothesis seems to rely on the majority of men being either profoundly stupid or profoundly dissociated from reality. I have been a consumer of porn since I was (give or take) thirteen years old, and never once has it occurred to me that what was happening in those videos was meant to be reflective of sex in real life. As a kid, I watched Knight Rider, and even imagined myself having a cool car and doing all kinds of crazy things with it, but I managed to learn to drive in the real world and never once attempted to jump a closing drawbridge. I watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but I manage to keep from walking around with sharpened stakes to protect me from vampires. The vast majority of men understand the difference between fantasy and reality, and that the two are not in competition with one another, because they are quantatively different things.
I don’t agree with you re the being heard, and as I’ve said before I’m not looking for agreement. I was looking for a discussion on what impact porn may or may not have on individual relationships and our culture as a whole. Thank you for your straightforward answer. It’s a bit of a relief!
Well, that’s nice. But not everyone is you and not everyone has your experience.
Of course not. But I’m genuinely curious, if there is a substantial group of men out there who really can’t distinguish fantasy from reality, where are they?
I’m a guy. In my youth my family moved around a good bit, so I’ve lived in a lot of places. I was into both sports and into musical theatre as a teenager and young adult - and I was also a part-time nerd, friendly with other nerds - so I’ve associated with a fairly varied population. I’ve known a lot of men well enough to talk about women and/or sex - jocks, geeks, RPG enthusiasts, driven accountants, improv comedians.
Here are two true things:
(1) I have never heard a straight man claim to have no interest in porn.
and
(2) I have never encountered a straight man with the difficulties you describe. Every guy I’ve known is attracted to a range of women - not just women who look like porn stars - and none has ever expressed any belief that real-life sex resembles sex as depicted in pornography.
Where are these guys? I can accept that there are a few out there, but I see no evidence that they represent a proportion of the population substantial enough to warrant thinking about porn as a social influence in the way you suggest.
I’ve been trying to make my point understandable for 4 pages and you wonder why I’m giving up? I don’t feel like indulging in this futile effort any longer. As for your point re “moving on”–tell that to Andrea, Frieda, Joan, myself, and Sarah (I’ve changed the names of my RL friends–all of whom I have referred to [not by name]) upthread as women who feel that porn has negatively impacted on their marriages.
You’re dubious they exist? I’m dubious that all these porn saturated relations that are touted here are all fine, healthy and wonderful DUE to porn. I call BS on that. If you hear nothing else, hear this: porn is a tool that can be used or abused by an individual or by a couple. It can be a crutch as well. I’ve said this before in this thread. Porn can and does harm relationships-is it the SOLE reason for a relationship’s demise? That depends on the relationship. I’m sorry you won’t see that. Not all relationships are harmed (as I have said, repeatedly) but enough to make it a valid topic of conversation.
So much for the championed educational value of porn–5 minutes? Get real.
And some of them are going to be disappointed in their female partners as well. Why is that so impossible to accept? Cosmic Relief has admitted as much. His relationships progressed beyond that disappointment, to the gratification of all, I’m sure. But what of those that don’t? And what if those that don’t are more prevalent than is thought? What then? It’s just a question–a speculation.
This is aggravating as all hell. There have been several subtopics present in this thread–that much is true. I am not delineating the topics below–I am answering your points:
I defined myself within the thread as “anti-porn” from one poster’s contributions. I then thought it through with whomever it was (Dio?–not going back to check).
All through this thread I have asked what if any are the longterm effects of the saturation of porn we see today in media and our lives. If you think that means" I say porn has bad effects/no, I’m not saying it has bad effects"–you need to read more closely.
Nowhere in this thread did I say that I thought porn made men “behave in strange ways”. Where do you get this from?
Sure, porn is a painful topic for me IN SOME WAYS. As I made very clear to Hostile Dialect–the responses here are NOT the cause of that pain. I also made clear that porn was a symptom of larger problems in my marriage, I never said that porn was the cause.
If all you can say is that I seem to be confused about this and therefore my queries aren’t worthy of attention or merit than you haven’t been paying attention. Porn is not always innocuous. That’s great if it is for you–why is your experience the arbiter of all experiences? I have made sure I have not used mine as an arbiter for everyone else’s here. So, why is your POV valid and mine not?
And you wonder why I feel unheard and why I said I give up. Apparently, we cannot have a discussion of porn on this board that includes criticism of it or speculation on its(possibly negative/possibly positive) effects in general. Lesson learned.
I’d like to know the answer to that question as well. When I was in college, the group of guys in and around my dorm room became connoisseurs of porn. In all the times we watched movies together, nobody ever once expressed any belief that these things were typical. Nobody wondered if double penetration was a common activity. It’s just nonsense to assume that guys are so thick and dull that they will not be able to recognize porn for what it is.
It’s not being unable to distinguish fantasy from reality–it’s preferring fantasy to reality. Frieda’s husband hasn’t had sex with her in a year. He prefers porn. There was another poster in this thread that said her then lover knew she was waiting, ready for him in the bedroom, yet wanted to get off on his online porn. They worked that out, to both their benefits, but there ya go. Others in this thread (try page 2) have said that they can see how the quick/easy/accessibility of porn would make it tempting to disengage in RL sex.
I am NOT saying that porn makes men do this. Naomi Wolf speculated about that–I’ve said I don’t agree with her. Men-some men- make this choice, since they are sentient beings, unlike porn. They are not mind-controlled by porn, which is what someone else thought I said upthread. My speculation has been, if this type stuff is happening–what of true intimacy? What happens to relationships that are impacted this way? And then I expanded it to look longterm at the effects porn has on our culture. And this is truly disturbing a number of Dopers.
I’ve never met him, but I believe olives4march’s husband is not (I hope I have the Doper correct–if not, my apologies). I’m sure such men exist (and why do you specify straight? Do you think gay men less likely to have an interest? Just curious).
Well, then our experiences differ. I also was not of the argument that women had to look like porn stars. I am of the mind that real women can’t compare to porn stars because they are never always ready and rarin’ to go, they rarely have sex with pizza delivery men etc. That’s all.
I don’t know where all these guys are. I know where 5-6 of them are. I highly doubt that they are the only ones so affected in all the world and that they should happen to be in my life as husbands of friends and co-workers. I also know that these are all women in their mid 30s to 40s. Perhaps it’s an age thing.
Note: I think porn as a social influence is more pervasive than any of us realize. Obviously, most here are peachy with that. I am wondering where it goes from here. What next? How will porn influence relationships in the future. Not control–influence. It may not influence a thing–unlikely, but I’m open to possibilities.
Does this help? I’m truly sick of this topic–I’m repeating myself like a broken record and what I get reflected back is along the lines of “how dare you question porn?” and “you hang with losers” (paraphrases). Most aggravating.
I’ll accept that you are feeling hostile and snarky. There’s no need to be aggressive if you are ignorant of the topic. Feel free to search - my recollection was from my coursework on sexual behavior, but recent studies seem to bear this out.
I’m not being snarky–I’m aggravated. It’s aggravating to have words put in my mouth. I took your 5 minutes to refer to the length of time it takes for a RL woman to climax. Why, since most men “know” that women cannot or do not climax on coitus alone would you state that 5 minutes seems about right? Maybe because porn portrays an unrealistic time frame for climax, when it shows the female climax at all? And this is from your cite:
You have not addressed any of my points or my corrections of your misconstruing of my posts. I leave you here.
I said, the average guy lasts about 2 to 5 minutes. It’s right there in the quote you pulled from me. Talk about not being heard - seems like you read a whole lot into what I was saying that just wasn’t even there. As to me putting words in your mouth, I have no idea what you’re referring to.
If I were a guy who’d never had sex, I’d be researching this stuff high and low (and practicing kissing while I was at it). Though there are quite a few sex columns in existence and websites with tips for giving good head (assuming you google that and not dirty school girl sluts), I find lad mags quite progressive in this area. Most of the stuff I’ve read on cunnilingus in Maxim and even Vice has been pretty spot on. They could probably also learn a thing or two from women’s magazines (which are probably also partly to blame in creating unrealistic expectations in bed). I’d love to see something comprehensive in sex ed… but I guess that’s a lot to ask from an admin unwilling to teach anything but abstinence.
All that aside, my point was more logical than anything. If a guy is giving good head to a woman, whatever her preference, chances are he is physically too close to
her genitals for any regular camera to get a good shot. So porn stars resort to theatrics.
ETA Here is a decent guide. Took me all of three seconds to find.
). Sadly, that time hasn’t come, as has been demonstrated in the thread. Some people are simply aghast that someone wouldn’t wear makeup, yet others are aghast that someone WOULD wear makeup.