I was specifically asking about the vibrator thread, though. I didn’t get that feel from that thread. Porn didn’t even seem to enter into it.
I mean, I’m not exactly a porn advocate here. I never watch it, and I personally don’t really enjoy it…I’m just generally in favor of people doing whatever it is that gets them off.
Ooh! I love MAC and clothes and stuff, too! I don’t like babies, though–puppies are my bent. Too bad I don’t know you IRL, eh? I don’t think I have a masculine equivalent. Though I do have a huge hard-on for the mafia–that’s military-esque.
Oh, sorry, Zoggie! The vibrator thread was depressing for a number of reasons.
the OP (I think) only intended to share her experiences and perhaps didn’t express herself well, but was also attacked for simply having an unpopular opinion.
the variety of expectations on the part of all the posters was a bit overwhelming for me–sometimes I think it’s a miracle any of us get laid, period.
I can’t seem to make a vibrator work for me at all–I used to think that it was just me, but that thread showed me that it is not all that uncommon (which porn will not depict, but I’m beating a dead horse here).
there was a lot of truth in that thread and I found it depressing–the way girls are socialized, the fact that so many have no clue as to their anatomy, the way some men are threatened by the use of vibrators etc.
No worries. I just felt bad in that thread because it made it seem like using a vibe was unnatural or weird. And I’ve always masturbated and have often never gotten off on heterosexual intercourse, finding it just…blah. Using a vibrator to masturbate–it’s like how I always thought sex would feel–like masturbation alone but a thousand times better. So for me, it was like being told that my favorite way to get off was not necessarily all that good, so I was defensive.
I suppose we all have different expectations–we’re not all uniform. Which makes things hard, sure, but probably more fun in the long run.
For those here who might be confused by my position, here is a quote from the Wolf article that may help:
I don’t agree with her last point here–I think some are not effected, that some are more turned on, and that some are, as she said, less so.
Mechanics, but not intimacy. Is this the future? (yep, broad brush). I italicized the one part because this has happened to me, and to women I know. I think it happens more than we know or want to admit, but it does not happen to everyone by any means. So, where to from here as a society? The answer for the individual can vary: sex therapy, talk to your partner, get out of the relationship, find alternatives. But I am more interested in the bigger picture. And where will this lonely conjoining lead us? More divorce? Fewer marriages? More open marriages? I am saddened by this picture of two people talking past one another, focused on their needs for the moment but never the larger whole. Thoughts?
And I think here it’s important to point out that we’re talking about the difference between porn and real life. In porn (and I include erotica in this mix) there really can be no denying that the sexual object is a sexual object, a means to an end. I don’t find this fact distressing in and of itself-- rather innocuous, really.
But – well, to be rather blunt, I once came across an ‘‘erotic’’ tale of a bunch of men gang raping a woman and then shoving a dry corncob into her vagina until she bled profusely, screaming hysterically the whole time of course. There was not even a tiny hint that she was in any way enjoying the experience… and that, given that this is only a story, you have to take at face value. You can’t ‘‘imagine’’ that she was in fact being deeply and truly fulfilled sexually as a result of the experience – the writing made it plain enough that she was being terrorized, and that means that it was a story about how sexy it is to cause extreme pain and humiliation to the sexual object.
I cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, sanction this as being ‘‘normal’’ and ‘‘healthy.’’ I can fathom that there are maybe a handful of people in the world who might possibly be deeply and truly fulfilled sexually by having a corncob shoved into their vagina, but it is pretty clear the lady in the story was not one of them.
Nor can I really call it ‘‘normal’’ and ‘‘healthy’’ for that guy who was willingly castrated and cannibalized… fulfilling as that experience might have been for him mentally, he wasn’t right in the head.
So yeah, I do think lines have to be drawn.
And there is an abundance of this kind of sick material online… scads of it. There is a wide audience of both men and women who read this stuff, and I cannot for the life of me imagine how anyone in their right mind would be turned on by it.
Zoggie, you have mentioned that you’ve gotten off to some weird ‘‘Marquis de Sade’’ style stuff, and you strike me as a reasonable and balanced person. Would you find the story I described arousing? Why?
I don’t think I’d f ind that arousing, personally. Though quite a lot of rape scenes are depicted in “Misfortunes of Virtue” and I rather liked those. The one you describe seems pretty gruesome. Maybe too gruesome for me?
The thing is, I’m not really sure where I’d draw the line. And if people do find that erotic, but they confine it to their fantasy lives, are they bad/disturbed people?
And, another question–is it only okay to get off to something if the other person is enjoying it? I’m not talking about porn where actors/actresses feel coerced. I’m talking about finding the idea of someone being degraded erotic, but not caring about whether or not it fulfills the hypothetical person being raped/degraded.
I’m not sure that there are definitive answers…just something to put out there.
I disagree with much of this, though it seems right on its face. There is an ever-growing sub-genre of romance that is as objectifying as any porn I’ve ever watched. Ellora’s Cave is a publisher devoted to “romantica”–which is just cover to cover smut with the flimsiest of non-existent plot, and a HEA out of nowhere. The dirtier, the better. The more partners, the better. The more kink, the better. They insist there should be sex within the first chapter. They also don’t worry too much about grammar, characterization, or good writing in general.
They move a huge amount of product every month, both online and in bookstores.
In a growing number of cases, there isn’t a big difference between print erotica and visual pornography. And these sort of books are just growing more and more and more popular, and they are most assuredly being marketed to an audience of women.
I guarantee you, a good deal of the scenarios you would find in “regular” porn are becoming increasingly common in the written form. The more hard-core, the better.
But this wasn’t porn, with a real person having a corncob rammed into her vagina. This was a piece of written erotica with an imaginary woman. Am I endorsing “corn cob rape fantasies”? Not necessarily, but in here, there’s only two people who need to consent: the person who wrote it and the person who reads it. And since you said “woman”, even the fictional person in the fantasy was at least of age*.
Some posters seem to be ignoring the “BOTH partners of the sexual act need to be willing and enjoy it (or quit when one doesn’t)”. There’s lip service paid to this idea and then the arguments go right back to unwilling, doing what they don’t want to do, that’s “wrong/degrading/sick”, etc.
because I do NOT want pedophilia being brought into this discussion!
Why does it have to take us anywhere? That’s what I’m asking. This question assumes that porn has the ability to reach right through people’s skulls and rearrange the workings of their inner mind. When pressed for evidence that it does have that power, the best argument I’ve seen is, “Well, it has to! It’s porn!” That’s what people used to say about marijauna in the 1930s–that it was a devil weed that enslaved young men and turned them into depraved deviants. I don’t see this argument holding any more water now that the subject is porn.
I wasn’t trying to be snarky, honest. Hence why I included the disclaimer that I, myself, am not at peak emotional health. Far from it. In fact, I think it’s partly my emotional problems which lead me to spend as much time downloading porn as I do. But when someone says that porn has destroyed their personal relationships, it smacks (to me) of running and hiding from the real problems in the relationship–just like the men who look at porn instead of nurturing the relationship do. And if I’m interested in a particular woman and she rails on about the evils of porn, the first thing I think is “baggage”. Like I’m sure you do when you hear someone rail on about the evils of, say, alcohol, or gambling, or dangerous driving. Yes, those things have the potential to cause problems, but IMO they’re mostly symptoms of other problems when done in excess–problems which can be solved in better ways than by focusing on the porn itself.
Prevalence and importance are two entirely different issues. For example, suspense movies are pretty prevalent. What importance would you say those have to our society (other than their effects on storytelling, film and other expressive art forms)?
I don’t know. The arguments about the specific ways that porn is changing us, just don’t ring true for me. I mean, it’s possible that I’m just deluded on a grand scale, since I had all the porn I wanted at my fingertips soon after I hit puberty.
Is this a rule for reality only, or does it apply to porn as well?
Agreed… though I would add that I don’t think it needs to be ‘‘smutty’’ to qualify as objectifying. I think many romance novels are just as exploitative and disregarding of the humanity of the sex object as any porn. They are a means to an end… cheap gratification, whether emotional or sexual. I don’t find anything fundamentally wrong with erotica or porn (other than it being really predictable and unexciting in most cases), but I don’t think it’s fair to try to draw such a hard distinction between them.
For example, I’m sure there are some really amazingly good films that depict sexual experience in a mind-blowing, humanizing and artistic way… as there are good pieces of literature out there that painstakingly draw out the fascinating realities of sexual relationships. Erotica and porn, from my perspective, do not habitually fall into this category, though there are some rare gems. Mostly they exist for fast, impersonal sexual gratification. IMHO there is no qualitative difference.
As someone mentioned upthread about their ‘‘brain’’ being their biggest sexual organ, I admit I’m the same way. Porn and erotica don’t usually do it for me because it lacks the psychological edge I find fundamental to hot sex. I do not labor under the delusion that I’m seeking ‘‘emotional connection’’ in my fantasies—it’s more base, more instinctual than that – but it’s still an intellectual process. It usually takes me about ten tries before I dredge up something online that gets me even mildly aroused – at which point I just say ‘‘screw it’’ and write my own damn erotica.
I don’t think everyone has to like porn and advocate it. It seems that I’m probably responsible for a pretty fair portion of you perceiving that in this thread, and if so, I apologize. I’ve had loving and sexually fulfilling relationships with women who didn’t like porn and didn’t much like the fact that I had it.
As for #2, sorry. I don’t know what exactly the painful stuff is. I remember making someone in #straightdope really uncomfortable a couple of years ago regarding some painful memories she had about men and porn, and I still feel bad about that. Maybe I just need to keep away from this topic or something.
It’s really refreshing to hear that viewpoint, for me. I think the beauty of the female facial structure doesn’t need makeup (generally), and in a new relationship I often have to spend a lot of time and effort convincing my SO that she doesn’t need to slather on makeup for me to think she’s beautiful and sexy. The most heartwarming moment in my last serious relationship was when she stayed over at my house one weekend and didn’t even bring her makeup, and I–completely oblivious of her makeup situation–told her she was beautiful, to much protestation at the time; and later she told me that she felt like a goddess that day. That’s what I live for.
To be fair, I was shocked to find out that some women didn’t get off on vibrators. From porn, I thought they were just magic orgasm machines.
But when I hear men talk about how threatened they are by dildos and vibrators, it makes me ashamed to be part of the same gender. That is a self-esteem problem.
It is true that a lot of women seem to think that they can never ask for what they want. That’s another common source of frustration for me in dating. I try to be a decent, sensitive guy and it’s tough when she won’t tell me what the hell she wants. I can’t say I buy into the idea that porn is causing it, though. I mean, fifty years ago it seems like it was taboo for a woman to expect anything other than decent earning potential from a man. I’d say we’re making progress, even if we do have a long way to go.
And rightly so. Honestly, I think it’s completely each individual’s responsibility to ask for what they want… to take ther responsibility for their own sexual satisfaction. I understand a lot of women don’t do this, and it’s kind of sad. I wonder how much of this feeling of ‘‘competing’’ with porn would go away if people were forthright about their desires… and their insecurities. As you mentioned above, that was a sort of bonding moment for you in your past relationship, when she felt she was able to be vulnerable with you and you accepted her for who she was.
I’m lucky I had enough role models who didn’t feel the need to make themselves up just to face the day, so I genuinely never really “got” the idea that one “must” wear makeup to be pretty. Even when I do wear makeup, I rarely wear foundation because I don’t have that much in the way of uneven skin tone to cover up, so I don’t bother with trying to cover it.
I had gotten my first vibrator as a gag gift from a friend when I was a teenager. Much to my dismay, the vibrations were too intense to be “fun” for me. It doesn’t always work out, and that’s why there’s a lot of variety in the sex toy industry. Also, it’s an orgasm that’s completely different from what the human body can produce without tools; sometimes that’s a good thing, but it’s never better for me than an orgasm with a partner. There really is no replacement for human contact, and I would categorize hugs and cuddling (and sex as well, but a bit higher up) WAY above the orgasms I can manage with a vibrator.
I think there are still a lot of women who feel shamed by wanting something out of sex beyond satisfying their partner, and it’s disheartening. Then again, if you look at fifty years ago, marital rape was still legally protected, so I think a lot of the women out there that are having issues with identifying what they want and making it known to their partners stems from a lot of the emotional insecurity tied to sex from an earlier era. Some of us younger ladies had a combination of positive factors that outweighed whatever subtle societal pressure there may have been to just “do what he wants” while there are others who are still really unsure as to whether what they want counts. We still have the onus to make sure that young women and older women alike know that they are responsible for making sure that they get what they want and need out of a relationship or out of sex. Guessing games, “subtle hints,” and other ways of skirting the issue aren’t going to do much but frustrate even the best of men who can play the mind-reading game; it isn’t as if every woman has a magical button in the same spot that’s marked with a big red X. There’s also the issue of being able to find out what you want via self-exploration and the exercise of masturbation. There are a lot of women (and a lot fewer men) who are uncomfortable with the idea of masturbating; sometimes it’s an issue of shame, sometimes they think that masturbating is gross or wrong or doesn’t go with their shoes, but for some of them, not having found what turns them on prior to having a partner hinders the process of being able to find what they like and what makes them happy in bed with a partner.
There still is some subtle hints at the idea of being “the perfect woman” and “pleasing your man” is what’s important, and I see them most heavily in advertising; what’s really funny is that I see a lot of women in porn as being more empowered than the “empowered women” in a lot of our modern advertising. The EWoA still needs to make sure her hair and skin are flawless and that her makeup is perfectly styled and that she’s dressed well so that she can be justified in pandering to the schlub they hire to play her husband; the husband, on the other hand, can just be a somewhat presentable schlub and work out alright. If he’s dressed too nicely or is too styled, he ends up acting like Ken from Barbie’s dream house harem collection. In porn, not so much. It seems like even in some of the more “artsy” or “professional” porn that the girl just needs to be willing and happy with what she’s doing, but a bit of slapdash makeup application around the eyes and some hair teasing helps. Why bother to get perfectly styled when all that bedroom exercise is just going to mess it up?
This is what I mean by being not heard–who has said “well, it has to! It’s porn!” in this thread. The hysteria over pot analogy does not hold up here. I would NOT compare the two, ever (unless we were talking about the Hays Office long ago). Surely you can see that if something is a massive, sudden part of a culture that it will influence that culture to some extent. Please don’t say it hasn’t already-- a barrier or three has been let down. People post pics on MySpace and Facebook that would not have passed muster even 10 years ago. I think you DON’T see it because this is all you ever knew, apparently.
Again–WHO is “railing against the evils of porn” here? Who? Are we not allowed to think critically about porn? To wonder about its influence and impact on teens, on children, on relationships between men and women in general?
Not really. They are different, but they are related. If you want to talk about suspense movies, we could compare their popularity now to the so called “disaster” movies of the 70s and what critics thought of those and what critics think of these films now. Or we could discuss suspense films from pre-Hitchcock to now and how they’ve changed as tastes have changed. If you believe that suspense films, that are made maybe about 3 times a year compare in quantity and influence to porn, you are mistaken. I am much more concerned about the influence that violence in film has over time–especially horror films today (and in fact would much rather see sex on the big screen than bodies flying everywhere), but that’s another thread…
I actually do think your age does have something to do with it. Tell me this–how do you think porn has improved relations between men and women, other than technique? Has it made intimacy, emotional, spiritual, easier? better? Do relationships last longer? I have no idea–I only know experiences from my own life. It may well be true for many people. I am not going over this again, because I find this exhausting–but what influence does porn have, longterm? What impact does it have on individuals and couples, and even society longterm? That is what I am discussing. I get it that you are a defender of porn. No one is going to take it away from you.
So, what did you do then? Try to get them to watch? Resent their attempts to sway you from it (if that was done)? Not talk about it at all? I’m just curious–it doesn’t really matter.
My painful shit has nothing to do with your responses in this thread. I find I am saddened by the undercurrent of hostility and defensiveness here. Hey, porn won. It’s here to stay. It’ll never be underground again-so why can’t we criticize it and analyze it? Sex is a basic human function–why is porn a sacred cow? (and that is one odd sentence to write). I’m just throwing thoughts out here.
Sorry, but this has to be said: maybe it wasn’t about you. Maybe she puts on makeup to feel pretty for herself. Maybe she liked to wear makeup and stopped because you said she didn’t need it. From here it looks to me that you are still the gatekeeper of her attractiveness. That seems messed up to me.
That’s very nice (I mean that sincerely) but seriously, maybe she meant she felt like a goddess because you said something nice about her looks.
This is more telling than you realize–and I am not picking on you. Here it is–in black and white. *Porn led you to an expectation of women’s behavior that was unrealistic. *Now do you understand? (yes, yes–not for all women, that’s understood–but the fact that even some don’t find vibes to be magic machines shocked you.)
I think you misread Whack-a-Mole in that other thread, but I cannot argue on two fronts. It seems that even freewheeling sex has fairly strict rules to it: you cannot admit to feeling uncomfortable about something that your partner uses to get off. I find this odd.
I am NOT saying that porn is causing that! <bangs head on desk> Did it ever occur to you that some of these women don’t know what they want? My wants and needs have changed over time. Hell, they can change from day to day. I agree with you that women should speak up, but that is not always the panacea that one thinks it is. What if the woman wants X and the man says, “no way”? In porn, that doesn’t happen–but it happens in real life, often (by both partners).
Tangential question: how does not wearing makeup equate to liberation? Or is that not the point of the anti-make up position? I wear minimal makeup, but don’t feel superior to those who wear more. Lots of women are very skilled at makeup and look fantastic. I’ve also never heard of a woman putting on makeup to look good for a guy-not even in my misspent youth…
I’m trying to pick up and follow this thread, but it’s a bit difficult to discern where some people are coming from.
I think Hostile Dialect has described very well my feelings on the topic. Porn does not, in and of itself, have the pervasive and detrimental powers that some here seem to think it does.
The problem with most video porn is that it is of such low quality. There are certainly elements of it that are unrealistic and can be off-putting. For example, I don’t want a woman to spit on my junk at any time.
However, the idea that it will take a person and make them act like a porn star makes about as much sense as suggesting that watching the Three Stooges will make people throw pies at one another. If a given person is prone to throw pies at other people, it will not be because of the Three Stooges, but because of something that that person has brought to the equation.
The specific example that comes to mind is one girl who I had sort of an on-and-off friends-with-benefits thing with for a while. The first time she came over to my apartment, I was on my computer, and she said, “I hope you don’t have porn on there.” I said, “Actually, I do.” She responded with the verbal equivalent of rolling her eyes and sighing (can’t remember what the exact words were) and I said something like, “Well, I don’t think it’s really that big of a deal”. It didn’t come up after that, and we had a pretty enjoyable thing for a while. It ended bitterly, but she and I are fairly close friends (without benefits, unfortunately) today.
Well, she specifically said it was because I complimented her even though she wasn’t wearing any makeup, and I didn’t say anything the whole time about the fact that she didn’t have any makeup on or around (I didn’t notice). I’m inclined to believe her
I think you misread me. I wasn’t talking about that thread, I was talking about things I’ve heard other men say IRL (that they feel threatened by dildos and vibrators), and my point is that those men need to grow up.
If you’re talking about my anti-makeup position, it’s just that I view makeup as “a little touch here, a little touch there”, at most, for tweaking small aspects of one’s appearance. Really, I’d rather attractive women not wear any makeup at all. But since I’m not the King of Makeup, I don’t say anything about it. (I know an earlier post probably made it sound like I do–it’s more like subtle hints that an SO doesn’t need makeup for me to like her, and even that is only once I’m really close to someone.)
What an interesting, thought-provoking thread. I’m mostly ‘pro-porn’ (though I find the majority of it laughable, boring, and in danger of killing my sex drive for the night once I start to think of the actress’s bad childhood or painful-looking implants), but there’s a world of difference between old Playboys and high speed Internet access to bestiality and bukkake.
I really think there is something to be said for instant gratification leading to apathy or an ever-increasing need for the extreme (near asexuality at one end, snuff films at the other). And college students aren’t crazy in thinking the line between porn and ‘reality’ is ever blurring- look at Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashian, research strippercize, tune into Porno Valley, ask a few frat boys if they’d like to screw Pam Anderson. Girl-on-girl (for a guy’s pleasure, as opposed to old-fashioned experimentation) is standard, three-ways and anal are 'expected. Yes, she can obviously turn them down, but they are about as taboo as a blow job. College students worry about looking and acting like porn stars the same way they worry about looking like catwalk models and acting like movie stars.
Don’t know if it has always been this way, but a womancan usually figure out which guys watch too much porn once she’s got him in the sack- the clichéd lines, the cunnilingus ‘for the camera,’ and the inability to understand why she hasn’t cum (and loudly) within five minutes… all dead giveaways. Hopefully most of them learn what real women like, but I imagine some of them, and some of their girlfriends, believe the ‘real life’ girls are the problem.
