I’m sorry but this comes across as remarkably sexist and ethnocentric to me. Who defines “Social Values?” :dubious: Which values are good? which bad? The ones that feminists decide? The theocracy of the Radical Islamists? Hedonists? Anarchists? Orthodox Jews? The illuminati? “Social Values” change with the wind, and are not absolute. Men and women think differently about this subject and are often radically polarized on what constitutes degradation and objectification.
He’s been charged with rape by at least one of the women who sign up to do porn with him, BTW. Apparently he is not clear upfront about exactly what they’ll be doing in the film and how they’ll come out looking–he gets a lot of porn stars who are running out of job offers that way. It’s horrible stuff, and he’s by far one of the scummiest characters in any film industry.
Dio But the woman shown was NOT enjoying it–or else she hid her pleasure well. My kids haven’t seen it and won’t, if I have any say in the matter (which I don’t–and if you think my 15 year old son is going to come to me and say, “hey, look at what I found on the Net, Mom”, you are mistaken. So, I don’t know all of what he sees. We do talk about this stuff to an extent, but peers do have a way of trumping parents. Anyway, this was on my husband’s computer, not the kids’.)
It’s all fine and good to say–hey, your partner’s into this, it’s okay for him. NO–it is not. Here we come to an impasse, because what he watches effects me, whether he wants it to or not. He won’t stop watching it (he’s all for “it’s my own thing”), but it’s not just his–he’s dragged it into Us. I do not want it. It’s no different than if he insisted on doing X to me in bed, even if I said no. Do you all see that? If I’m to give him head–that scene immediately plays in my head. And I enjoy giving head. Can any of you say that if your partner watches something that disturbs you, that it doesn’t lead to at least discussion? What if you are the one who wants to do X and your partner says, no way. S/he should just say, OK? Or do you give up what you want? I cannot say “need” because sexual needs are learned for the most part–this is about what you want. I hate to sound like a priggish prick, but you’ll find you can’t always get what you want in life; and sometimes you don’t even get what you need.
I agree with Magiver-this sexual revolution has been not a two sided sword, but a many headed Hydra for women and men.
I think olivesmarch made the point very well. We’ve been so busy telling one another that this is ok and that’s is all right; it’s what you want, so it’s ok and it’s ok because it’s what you want!–but some of this porn is not ok.
FTR, I would have no problem (although I would never want to do this) if a couple (defined as two people wanting to have sex with one another, not necc. a longterm relationship) agreed to do the whole/dominant submissive thing–but even there: there must be safe words, and the experience should be satisfying to both parties. By that I mean that the debasing of the one should not be total. This poor girl was used in that clip I saw–whether she agreed to have it filmed; whether she got off on it herself in some way not filmed. She was NOT respected as a human being. That is wrong. It’s unethical. It’s immoral. It debases both parties.
Note to all: if we could please not claim that someone who is anti-porn as someone with “problems” I think this discussion could move forward. That attitude is nonproductive and misguided. I suppose I would define myself as anti-porn (in my life), and this is not a personal problem. I also don’t feel that we can simply push the discomfort that many women (and some men) feel re porn off onto “issues” that these people may or may not have–this marginalizes the women and makes it even harder for their concerns to be heard. It’s a way of shutting down dialogue. Porn is too big to have it dismissed as someone being prudish or uptight.
More thoughts:
This is a choice–porn does not turn me on. Yes, I am familiar with the studies that say that women do have a physiological response to porn, whether they admit it or not. No doubt my panties would be moistened by watching porn. That does not make me turned on–for that you need to engage my brain, the largest sex organ of the body. I am not a voyeur sexually–so watching others fuck does nothing for me. YMMV.
Bottom line for me in this thread:
Porn is here to stay in whatever guise it takes over the years. But is there room for those who do not champion porn? Is there room in all this hedonistic, narcissistic wanking for standards of decency (meaning moral decency, not blue laws)? Or are we to become a culture that pursues the physical release above everything else? Can someone be loved and committed to without having to be expert at the kama sutra? Can couples be satisfied by “vanilla” sex? (and I feel the need to say here that vanilla sex to me would be like George Carlin’s famous bit: man on top, get it over with quick. No oral. No anal. Already we are entangled in differing perspectives). And why should a couple feel pressured into doing more? Why should anyone feel pressured to do anything beyond their comfort zone sexually?
In a weird way, I think porn has not only lowered the bar on relational sex(if not eradicated it entirely–I don’t see many porn stars even telling one another their names*), but it has also raised the bar significantly in terms of expectations–especially of what men expect from women in bed. I’ll tell you right off-I’m not doing anal, ever. Period, end of story. Now, if I were dating, since this seems to be commonly thought of as “vanilla” (what the hell is exotic, then?)–I’m at risk for being seen as sexually inadequate because I won’t do anal. “Everyone’s doing it” is a crap argument, IMO. But if a guy has come to expect anal because of porn and say a previous GF–what then? Is it HER problem, because she won’t do anal or is it HIS problem for even asking or is it OUR problem for allowing this definition of “vanilla” to become commonplace?
and why can’t they do that? Ok, Ok, --the porn is there to provide stimulation. got that. But why not have porn that takes it up a notch–if so called “girls next door” are the new hot thing in porn–the girls next door to me have names, and lives and problems. It’s an injustice to them and feeds the whole unreal expectation thing–this blurs the line between fantasy and reality, to reality’s detriment.*
Does any of this make sense or am I beginning to gibber?
Hostile Dialect–are you** fetus**? I’m confused.
I would say that a lot of these things are learned, but it doesn’t make them any more of a choice. I’m not sure why I like what I like, but I never consciously decided to get attracted to certain scenes/ideas.
I’m sorry if I made it seem like everyone had to do more. When I said that I considered vanilla sex to be oral/anal/heterosexual intercourse, I wasn’t using vanilla as a synonym for boring, which seems to be what you’ve taken away from it. In the BDSM world, vanilla just means non-kinky sex. Now, everyone’s definition of kinky is different, but I just use vanilla when I mean stuff not related to bondage, role-playing, etc. Personally, I’m really not into anal sex. I don’t think I’d do it again. But I don’t consider it kinky. So, I’m sorry if there was confusion on that point.
I don’t think people should feel pressured to do stuff that they don’t like. People shouldn’t let the rest of the world influence what they do in bed. But then, the outside world does influence it. I’m thinking of Dan Savage who basically says that oral sex is now par for the course and advises his readers to dump people who won’t do it (men and women). Now, obviously a couple can be happy with no oral sex at all, but I suppose you’re right–the outside world is seeping into the bedroom. Now, instead of telling us not to have sex and now dirty we are for liking anything that’s not procreative sex, it’s more like, “Why aren’t you more adventurous?”
Oh, I think he is. I remember there was a thread earlier where fetus was thinking of changing his name to something-Dialect. Guess he went through with it. And I did so love fetus!
No, I don’t. Sorry. One is rape, and the other is porn.
This, I can get behind a little more.
But you have to look at the facts. The facts are that the popular porn is not like what you’ve railed against; it’s not degrading S&M and it’s not about thin, leggy, tanned blonde bombshells with big fake boobs, no tan lines, and perfect skin. The anti-porn view in general–not necessarily yours, but the version I’ve heard over and over again from different people, some of them Dopers–as personified by Naomi Wolf, is misguided and misleading and belies serious emotional problems in the people who express it. The concept of porn as the be-all and end-all determiner of culture and society implied by statements like this:
also gives it an inflated importance which makes me wonder about the emotional health of the people making those kinds of arguments. I’m not saying I’m emotionally healthy–in fact, I’m suffering from severe anxiety and I will probably have to start drug therapy soon.
I don’t mean to hijack this thread, but I, for one, “expect” anal (to some degree–I won’t let it make or break a relationship) because:
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It’s part of what turns me on
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It’s healthy and fun for both parties in moderation, and I know that by experience and by doing a fair bit of research on it
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I’m willing to take as good as I give if it makes the girl feel better about it (strap-on or whatever)
and I think that’s pretty reasonable.
I posted before I realized that many had weighed in about the girl crawling clip. Glad to see that men and women can see it for it is.
Dio–at the risk of being seen as judgmental (something I’m becoming more and more comfortable being seen as); it is irrelevant if someone finds that type of stuff a turn on. I think that’s wrong. I think it’s sick to want to see someone so humiliated and trod on. I hadn’t thought she might have done if for drug money (or some other reason), but that makes sense. She was awfully thin and pale… and that’s another part of the industry that sickens me. At least in the military, one learns discipline, some type of skill and gets health insurance. And it usually doesn’t hurt you to put military service on a resume or job app.
Other almost random thought:
I find the vibrator thread to be depressing. I am also strangely depressed about this thread. I’ll try to figure out why off line.
I can’t quite accept that a guy of any age “needs” porn. For several hundred if not thousands, of years men didn’t have access to porn. It’s my contention that working damned hard to just survive the cold, the wild beasts that could and would kill you and finding food sort of took the edge off the horniness. Not that it dried up the drive by any means. I also know that Victorian London had more brothels than at any other time in the city’s history… I see porn as a habit for most. A lazy habit at times–not all the time, but sometimes.
Sorry! Tell you what–you can still call me fetus in your head, in your posts and even in person if we meet. 
(And I promise if we do meet at a Dopefest I’ll tell you the story about my experience with death.)
ETA: Now I just need to remember to show my sig so people aren’t confused.
A little. But, don’t worry about it.
They shouldn’t. How does porn create that pressure? By creating one-sided, false expectations?
Try this. Get yourself a movie with a younger Peter North. Ask your partner, “Why don’t you have hair that nice? Why aren’t your pects that big? Wouldn’t it be nice if your cock was that big? Oh! My! Why don’t you ejaculate like that? Don’t I turn you on enough?”
See if the shoe fits on the other foot. (I’m just joking.)
The vibrator thread was depressing to me, too–but I’m not sure why you’re feeling that way about it. I didn’t like it because I didn’t like being told that using a vibrator was “bad”–I’m not sure what angle you’re coming at it from.
Anyway, I’ll digest some of this, as I’m heading offline to go eat.
I wish porn really did turn me off sex with real people. It would make being married a lot easier.
But see, you’re missing a key point to what I said: if BOTH partners are happy, healthy, and respected, it’s fine. That means BOTH people have to agree that it is something they are into, whether it’s anal or porn. Obviously, if your partner is whacking it to something that is truly disturbing to you and wont make a compromise with you, then your relationship has some problems. Sex is VERY important in relationships to me, but it’s all part of a compromise.
And I had a boyfriend who really liked watching MILF porn. I didn’t get it. Here I was- 19, perky, big tits, tight round ass- and he was watching these (what I view as, at least) gross, 40-50 somethings, with saggy titties, wrinkled faces, and droopy crotches. Made absolutely no sense to me why he was into that- why wouldn’t he want to watch hot 20 year olds? That said, it never effected my pleasure while having sex with him. Why? I knew he wasn’t thinking about that stuff, but was quite obviously entirely focused on me. If anything, I found (what I used to jokingly call it to him) “the old lady porn” funny. I guess the primary reason I wasn’t bothered was because I knew that there was no way I would immediately be able to fulfill that fantasy for him. Hell, he also knew that fact. There ain’t no way I was going to age 20+ years instantly. So, why obsess over it?
I had another boyfriend who had extreme bondage porn on his computer. While I enjoy a little bit of bondage, the extreme ball gag-nipple clamp- bruise kind is a little out of my league. When he would hold my hands above my head while we were having sex I knew he was thinking about the porn he enjoys, but he was RESPECTFUL enough to only fulfill his fantasy to a degree that was ok with me. Meaning we were both happy, we were both being healthy, and we were both respecting one another. And even though I knew he was thinking about that crazy-to-me porn, I was ok with it because I was giving him pleasure, something I rather enjoy doing to those that I’m having sex with (and likewise, I hope! heh).
But see, what is not ok to you, is ok to me. I don’t mind being called a slut during sex- hell, I think it’s sexy. I don’t mind a man holding my arms above my head and sort of pinning me down- I think that’s sexy, too. Hell, I don’t even mind a guy doing ye olde fabled porno ending of a money shot on my face, because we both enjoy it. Am I being treated immorally? I sure don’t think so, he doesn’t either, and isn’t that what matters? Am I being debased? I sure don’t feel like it.
Remember now, there are plenty of folks who think ANY sex other than for procreation is unethical, immoral, and debases both parties. … and God. So, who gets to draw the line on what is ok? Me? You? The fundamentalists?
It’s because the line is so unclear, that I simply cannot say that something is WRONG if both ADULT parties are happy, healthy, and respectful of one another. I do all kinds of things that you might think of as demeaning, but I love them. I have friends that do anal- something that I just can’t get behind (no pun intended), but even though I can’t understand it, they are happy, healthy, and respectful so it is A-ok. Heck, I’m sure you even do a thing or two that would lead me to raise an eyebrow, but you’re happy, healthy, and respected with your partner so who on earth am I to judge?
And ya know, if it is vanilla sex you’re into- more power to ya. Personally, “making love” bores me to tears, even when I am in love. Is one of us wrong? Of course not! In the end, all that matters is that you do what works for you and your partner. If it’s missionary or a sex swing, it’s all good. Sex is INCREDIBLY personal, which is why we can’t judge other folks on their kinks.
They absolutely, positively, NEVER should. Period.
I might let a guy tie me up and call me a slut, but I don’t do anal either. I don’t think most folks think of anal as vanilla either, for what it’s worth. While it maybe is more common than it once was, it’s still not part of basic sexual expectations or anything. At least, I don’t think so.
Sure, I have had plenty of boyfriends who love anal scenes in porn (the ex above? He had Mom’s Anal Adventure parts 1-4 heh) AND have had exes who do it. You know what I say when they ask or try? “No. I’m not interested in that. It doesn’t feel even remotely good for me at all, sorry. Here’s something else fun we can do though” And ya know what? That’s always been perfectly fine. I’ve never had a man anally rape me because I declined his offer for anal.
Just like I really like dirty talk- some folks don’t. While some guys love it and eat it right up, some guys get very uncomfortable and ask me not to be so vulgar. No big! All ya have to do is express that it isn’t for you and I’ll express your wishes. It’s a two way street, ya know.
Zoggie–yes, vanilla does have a connotation of boring. I don’t think it’s just me that feels that way, but I did take it that way. Thanks for the clarification.
HostileDialect/fetus–I’m sorry, but I find this depressing. I think you have missed my point and** phouka’s** and whoever started this thread (I can’t remember now). None of us (including Naomi Wolf) has claimed that we have become a culture that pursues the physical release above everything else.
We are merely asking the question to stimulate discussion–where will this predilection for porn take us? We are (if I can be so bold as to speak for phouka) looking at aspects of porn that concern us as people, as women, as participants in a shared culture. We are looking beyond the gratification that porn is used for and looking at it’s impact on our culture, our men and women and our relationships with one another. Like it or not, there IS a stylization to most porn that helps feed the male fantasy at the expense of women, to an extent. I don’t believe that porn ipso facto empowers women. I think some porn CAN, but that not all does–not by a long shot.
and if we are to be snarky–it makes me wonder about your maturity level. No one in this thread, has inflated the importance of porn–almost all have agreed that it is more prevalent than ever. No one has advocated for it to be gotten rid of, not even Wolf has said all porn=BAD! Abolish porn. Porn is NOT innocuous in all its ramifications–to think so is to be naive. Porn is also not Evil Incarnate–to think so it to be reactionary and misguided. But porn is changing us in subtle ways --and that is a matter of concern. It may change us for the better–but anything this big cannot be all one thing or the other. There will be (is) bad mixed in. I think where most of us in this thread differ is in the mix of good/bad. I see more bad than good. Dio or Zoggie sees more good than bad. You seem to be saying that there is no societal effect from porn and that those who think so are emotionally disturbed(?). Not so.
Also, a quick note: the beauty of the femminist movement is that we can do what we want, without concern over the expectations of society. It’s not just men that hold women down, it’s other women as well.
Much like you said it was wrong to say all women who are anti porn have problems (which isn’t what was said- what we said was that women who feel it necessary to compare themselves to the women in porn may have some issue with their confidence), it is just as wrong to say that a woman who likes to be bossed around during sex (or on video) is probably on drugs. I’ve heard this argument before, too, in other forms. “Oh, you only like to be called a slut during sex because you were probably molested as a kid.” Uh, what? I was? News to me! I’ve never been raped, I’ve never been molested, and yet I still enjoy my lil’ kinks. I’d be interested in a cite that says women in graphic porn are drug addicts.
But like I said, the beauty of the movement is that I can do what makes me happy, without worrying what men or women deem is my role as a woman.
Dio–what you did or do isn’t debasing because you enjoyed it too–and agreed to it. I see nothing debasing about what you shared. To have this woman verbally abused, berated and to have her crawl away… that goes beyond decent human behavior. Decent in the sense of integrity of actions and respecting one another. What I saw was wrong. God knows I don’t want to bring the slippery slope into this–I am saying that there may be a slippery slope, but there is a place beyond the slope–this was it. It was demeaning to watch. It was not a jolly, let’s tie you up and I’ll spank you type thing at all–this was mean, spiteful and hateful. Hateful does not belong in sex–that’s not sex, vanilla, kinky or in between. Hateful’s a power play designed to subjugate the other person. Unconscionable.
On a lighter note, Dio–I’m 45. Could you ease up on the old fogey sex remarks? And not all of us have droopy butts and old crotches… 
Oh, ETA–I didn’t mean my comment re drug money to apply to all women in porn etc–but this crawling woman clip (the one giving head) she seemed to be that way. I wasn’t generalizing to all women in porn.
Zoggie–I think this is depressing me for two reasons. 1. I don’t think I’ve been truly heard (not agreed with, but heard. I don’t expect many here to agree with me re this topic. But stuff like “anti-porn people have personal issues” etc are disheartening. I suppose the new standard is that one must like porn and advocate for it. <sigh>) and 2. it does bring up some painful shit for me. I am trying very hard to not mix the two, but I’m not always successful.
But see, because it is a movie we have no way of knowing how she really felt. Maybe she was a tremendous actress and was really getting a kick out of it. Because she signed a contract and was paid, I’m (perhaps wrongly) more going to err on the side of caution and say she probably was a perfectly willing participant in the act. You didn’t enjoy it, of course, which is fine, but I don’t think it’s fair to accuse the girl in question of being a helpless drug addict, being abused for her next hit.
Hehe, I suppose I wasn’t clear. I’m sorry. Now that I’m a bit older, I am certainly more mature and able to see that there is beauty at all ages. My point though was about how I felt the moment I saw those videos (and oh boy! there were TONS) on his computer. I couldn’t understand it. It was truly disgusting to me. I really could not understand why someone would choose that kind of porn (and, for what it’s worth- there are some truly beautiful older women. These women? Yeah, not so much. They were very much rode hard and put away wet. . . lots of times) over hot little young things. Seriously, it blew my little 18 year old mind (I know I said 19 earlier, but upon reflection, I was 18).
Quickly though, I realized I was being unfair and my initial reaction was wrong. I had no real reason to be upset with him over his wanking material.
I honestly cannot understand this POV. Porn is one of those things that one need not share with their partner, and really doesn’t necessarily have to do with being sexually attracted to what’s on the screen. Sometimes porn can be funny, and sometimes you watch it for the sheer oddities inherent within fetishes.
I think you’re being a bit histrionic about this; are you considering divorcing him over the fact that he watched something that you find objectionable?
You’re painting with an extremely wide brush there. Personally, I think that declaring yourself as being anti-porn (which implies that you’re against ALL porn) openly declares that you’re uncomfortable with the idea of depictions of sexual acts in general, and not just the squicky ones. (Hee, squicky. :p) There’s also a huge difference between being uninterested in porn and being actively against it, which is another thing that “anti-porn” implies.
You’re also implying that women are these frail, powerless victims to men in any and all situations-- OMG, he expects something of me! Whatever shall I do?-- and it’s really incredibly offensive to me as a female. I’m not so chained to a man’s opinion or impression of me that denying him anal or not wearing makeup is out of the question. Who are these vulnerable twits that you keep mentioning and where are all the other self-respecting women?
Women judge other women all the time. I am judged by other women quite a bit because I’m not a typical girly girl with makeup and lack an interest in designer clothes and babies. I get the hairy eyeball from women for any one of those reasons on a regular basis. I do, however, like porn, gardening, reading, cooking, sewing, and witty banter, so I think things balance out.
Like Dio had said above, everyone has their own tastes and preferences, they don’t always mesh, and respecting those boundaries is what makes a sexual relationship healthy. Dio is okay with facials, whereas I am a bit horrified by the idea of semen landing on any of my external parts. I am, however, a bit closer to being okay with anal-- but I only grudgingly am willing to try it once or twice.
And you know what is most funny? I get judged by women all the time, too- and it is because I AM a typical girly girl. I have boxes of overpriced MAC makeup, love designer clothes (well, more so purses, actually), and I think babies are just to die for. And yet, plenty of women dismiss me as a twit because I have the audacity to participate in traditionally feminine things. I do, also, like porn, gardening, reading, cooking, military history (I can’t sew to save my life heh), and witty banter, so I, too, like to think I balance it out.
It just goes to show you that you are damned if you do and damned if ya don’t.
Yeah. I have MAC cosmetics as well, but I just don’t wear makeup every day and I made it a point to mouth off to the last guy who asked “why no makeup today?” to me at work: I’m not here to please you with my pretty visage; if I wore makeup all the time, I’d stun you with my radiance. 
One of my most feminine female friends focused on Roman war strategies as part of her master’s work. I avoid judging people on appearance, but I do kind of :dubious: at the overly vapid specimens of femininity and masculinity that I come across. People are people, but I still haven’t gotten over the shock of someone who’s proud of their vapidity and ignorance.
Where did you get divorce from this? I said we had arrived at an impasse re this issue. Divorce is likely in my future, and yes, porn has played a minor part in that–but it was a symptom, not a cause.
I am not anti-porn, then. But I did not characterize myself that way at the start–someone upthread (and I am not about to wade through and find it) stated that people (actually women) like Wolf etc were anti-porn. That’s a broad brush. We are all using broad brushes here-we can’t help but not. But I will say that there is a level of disbelief in the meh response to porn. Most people cannot believe that and so look for “reasons” such as (I’ve been called all of these at one time or another): frigid, prude, wound too tight, need to get laid; uptight; frigid bitch;you have “issues”; loser. Not here in this thread, but the attitude is present in some arenas.
WTH? Where do you get this from? Please quote it to me–I am truly baffled by this one. I would like to think that everyone would know where to draw their own lines re sex. Sadly, I don’t think a lot of teen girls do know–once they’re older, absolutely. But as teens? Not even today do I see teen females as empowered sex goddesses–I see vulnerable, curious girls. I also see the boys that way as well, FTR. Porn doesn’t see any of them that way, ever. Frail? Where have I said women are frail?
Ok, and? Everyone judges everyone. I don’t see where your personal preferences come into play here (the ones that are not porn related, that is)
But that is one of the things we are discussing–the boundaries and porn’s effect on them. If a teen girl watches porn and sees guys going down on the women in the clips, and then expects her BF to do the same, but he either has no desire or is squiked out (it could happen)–what then? We are talking about how porn influences these choices and dilemmas in RL. Ok, it’s a stupid example–most women love to receive oral, and most guys don’t mind giving it, but it’s just an example.
I find it ironic that you and** Dio** are saying “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” re makeup and “girly girl” stuff–when that’s a lot of what I am saying re sex and porn and gender roles here.