You are not alone in this. Did I mention I have to get my grading caught up AND write a history/government test? Hey, at least I got my classroom mostly picked up.
I completely agree with you, and I’d hazard the argument that the type of porn I’ve been discussing is a consequence of our “immediate gratification” society, and once it’s there, it reinforces those tastes. Kind of the worst of both worlds.
Absolutely. It’s also bad writing, or at least a consequence of watching only the Law and Order franchise. Because the stories’ lynchpin is sex, and the stories center around crime, sex is always portrayed in the context of criminal behavior. Of course, if Law and Order only portrayed happy, healthy, positive sex, they wouldn’t have a weekly story. Plot is founded on conflict. No conflict, no plot. No plot, no story.
It would be nice if they could balance it with some of that healthy, happy, positive sex.
I hear you. I was trying some work done and this distracted me enough that I’m just giving up and going home.
The same is true for porn.
[Slightly kidding] I would suggest that the type of porn you’re justifiably maligning actually did you a favor. Your partner that you mentioned upthread, he was obviously more interested in the ‘no effort required’ fantasy of the porn he was watching. This character flaw existed, porn or not. The porn just revealed it for you.
This was kind of what I was getting at earlier and couldn’t seem to articulate.
phouka, I was not suggesting that porn is the soothing balm to the teenage soul, but rather that at least it is available for young men and women to view. I think the openess of it’s availability online is refreshing and in the end, more a positive thing than any sort of stereotyping it might engender.
The sort of well thought out and written porn you speak of does exist, but in small quantities. Frankly, I can’t really imagine most men sitting through 30+ min of responsible conversation about the realities of sex and a long involved emotional dialogue just to watch the sex scenes. They would be on the chapter advance button in a hot second. The “fast-food” porn so prevalent is there because that’s what the people want. It is a reflection of what works.
As for the classic image of the long nailed porn star, it is outdated. While there still is a lot of bottle tans and fake breasts, a rapidly growing percentage of the market is dominated by “the girl next door” types. Most of these women look like normal cute girls in good shape. I don’t see anything wrong with that body image, nor any woman desiring to have that body image. It is not an unattainable standard. I rarely see any grossly underweight women in these type of films while the runways are flooded with them. Most of the actresses seem to really enjoy what they are doing, and more than a few of them are appearing with males who ARE their significant others.
If the bottom line assertion of the feminist argument is that men should find all types of women equally desirable, and vice versa, then that is a crap argument. We are as posted above hardwired to search for specific features that we as individuals find attractive. That is always balanced out by more primitive drives urging us to look for a healthy mate.
I don’t completely agree with you that sex should be considered such a sacred intimate thing at all times. Sometimes it IS just recreation. Why can’t two responsible adults engage in a mutually beneficial agreement for sexual pleasure? Condom use, combined with birth control will eliminate to a great degree almost all of the issues of unwanted pregnancy and disease transmission.
You mean you’ve never met a woman who admits to paying for sex with a man. The industry is there. I’ve only ever met one man who admitted to paying for sex with a woman, either.
I think if young girls feel inadequate because they’re breathing, thinking, complex people, they’re the ones with the problem. I’ll eat my hat if a single woman has ever been unable to pick up or meet a man specifically because they were all at home watching the uncomplicated women in porn. The young women I know (the attractive and interesting ones, anyway) have no more trouble than they used to finding a stable boyfriend, either.
That’s been the case for the history of Western society. Have you ever seen a love story in a movie from the 50s? It’s incredible how the men treat the women they love. I saw From Here to Eternity for the first time last night and, as a feminist, I was continually offended by the interaction between the genders in that movie, which was portrayed as reflective of society at the time. There was no Internet then, and hardcore gangbang and bestiality porn was probably pretty hard to get. If anything, it’s probably easier to find a man today who respects the women he is sexually attracted to than fifty years ago.
I think the problem here is that women tend to think of porn as primarily depicting bronzed, tan-line-free, blondes with huge tits, a not-too-big/not-too-small ass, perfect skin, etc., because that’s what porn used to be all about. To be fair, there’s certainly enough of that around on the Internet. But today, so-called “amateur” porn is a massively popular and constantly-growing genre, and it’s permeated the most popular Internet porn–it is defined by its inclusion of women who do not fit that stereotype. I spend a fair bit of my time on a porn-sharing message board, not at all targeted at users outside of the mainstream (gang-bang porn, for example, is frowned upon, and bestiality earns you an instant ban), and the users there go ga-ga over imperfect women. A lot of times someone will post pictures of a starlet with pimples, small breasts, tan lines, what-have-you, and most of the remainder of the thread will consist of posts like “WOW! :eek: SO HOT!”. As I’ve noted in this thread already, there are often active threads over there that focus on girls with tan lines, or girls with moles, or a little extra fat, or a lot of extra fat, or whatever. Even youth is no longer a given; “mature” porn has been taking off for most of this decade. Since American Pie, there have been approximately 17 kajillion new porno sites with “MILF” in the name.
So when a guy says he likes porn, a lot of women think, “Oh, he spends his time gawking at women who fit my rather arbitrary definition of ‘perfect’, and I’ll never measure up, and he won’t value me for my imperfections”, but often that’s only reflective of those women’s insecurities. It’s just another version of “these pants make my ass look too big/too small”, “I wish my hair were lighter/darker/straighter/curlier”, “my boobs are too big/too small”, “I have to lather on 18 pounds of makeup if I ever want to get a date”, etc. It’s not men and their porn that fuels women’s insecurities, it’s female delusion, which, unfortunately, most young women have down to a science.
Exactly. I’m female, and I used to look at a lot of porn on the internet. (I don’t look so much anymore as I should be writing the three papers that are due in the next two weeks…) I could tell it was older porn mostly because of the “Whorehouse Barbie” look on some of the ladies involved, and the newer porn tends to involve a very wide variety of individuals, not all of which are attractive in my book, but all serve their purposes and seem to enjoy it. The “amateur” stuff is very popular, as are the “girl next door/random girl off the street” focus, and most of these girls are pretty or average looking and not wearing a ton of makeup or some obvious slutty costume; while most of them are definitely not “off the street,” they at least try to make it look like the average girl you’d run into while wandering about town.
I have also referred to my partner in this thread. I think what you say is true, although he denies it vehemently when it is discussed; his actions belie his words.
But this thread is more than that–like phoukasaid, porn may reflect our instant gratification side, but it also feeds the hunger for that type of thing. In moderation, I don’t see a huge problem with it for individuals–but by moderation I mean conscious choice to use porn, whether alone or together. The societal question is up in the air. There are no easy answers or “solutions” (do we need a solution? I say yes–or a change in behavior, but I do not advocate government interference, except to make the sex industry safer for the workers).
The last porn film I watched from beginning to end was “In the Garden of the Shadows”–the DVD. No condoms. It’s great to hear that they are being shown being used. That alone heartens me. I know this will come as a shock to all, but I am not a watcher of porn on any kind of regular basis. The fact that I “know” so much about it strengthens my argument that it is so pervasive. I don’t have to seek it out–it’s everywhere.
Other thoughts:
At the risk of sounding ridiculous, there is porn and then there is porn. I will never appreciate the type of porn I have seen on my partner’s computer* which features a girl whimpering in a corner until she is ordered to come out and give the guy head (you never see the guy’s face) and once he comes (all over her face–that is so boring), he throws his shirt at her, tells her to wipe her face and says, “Now git back in yer corner” and she crawls away. WTF is this shit? This is not funny. This is not anything I want my sons or my daughter to see, ever. I don’t care what your kink is–this is bad behavior on several levels, and I am not including the sex act in the “bad”. It’s just plain wrong.
My tolerance for S/M ends with this kind of thing. She doesn’t look like she’s enjoying being “bossed” one bit. I cannot help but feel this is a way for my partner to enjoy humiliating women vicariously–which not only does NOT turn me on to him, but actually physically repellant to me, never mind emotionally.
*no, I wasn’t snooping.
What say any of you who say this is harmless? I’m sorry to make it personal, but I wanted to get this example on the table. I don’t see how those who say it’s harmless can consider such a thing as hurtful to no one. Thoughts? fetus–putting it all on the girl’s insecurities is way too simplistic. For every confident girl out there, there’s a guy trying to get his GF to dress a certain way, act a certain way (not necessarily to mimic porn stars at all–I’m speaking generally). This is NOT strictly a female problem.
I’m 21 years old and I will say that I really believe pornography has made me more sexually open- in a good way. Porn gives the example that all kinds of things are just fine if it works for you- whether it’s different positions, different outfits, dirty talk, oral, anal, role play, bdsm, etc. etc. My easy access to porn as a teen allowed me to see that all kinds of things are ok and all that matters is that it makes you and your partner happy. Not to mention all the tips and tricks I’ve picked up from porn ;).
I have some friends who are made to feel incredibly inadequate by porn, but it’s not because they’ve had a partner that chose porn over them. Rather, my friends that are anti porn seem to be so because of their own, personal problems. I’m certainly not physically anything like the vast majority of porn stars (I’m tan with big boobs, but they’re (my breasts) natural and the rest of me is definitely plus sized), but never once have I dreamed of comparing my body to a porn star’s. Those women? They have sex for a living. The rest of their time is spent with working out to look as good as they do (or on the operating table, whichever). Me? I’m pretty fuckin’ hot, even if I’m a fatty- I have no problem getting laid, so I’ll assume I’m a-ok. My friends though? They look at those women and feel fat, flat chested, and pale. It’s not the fault of the porn stars that my friends feel that way, it’s my friends’ problem.
I watch porn with my boyfriends sometimes, but it usually only lasts a few minutes before they want to turn it off and have some real fun.
Funny little anecdote- one time, my ex and I were watching some cheesy porn movie and I kept giggling. The girl had cellulite all over her thighs, stretch marks, weird boobs, and had something resembling a mullet- it was bad. As I kept laughing, we had this exchange:
Me: I don’t get it! She’s so ugly, how can anyone get off on this? Boyfriend: Angel, if she was pretty, she’d be a model. Me: Oh, good point.
Exactly. I present to thee: Heidi Fleiss’ Stud Farm (opening page seems SFW). Anyway, obviously, there IS a market. Granted, the place isn’t open yet, but it’s my understanding that it is presently being built.
Well, I think this is precisely my point. I do not deny sexual drive as a powerful impulse in men. Men have been masturbating to images, even if it is only within the confines of their mind, since the dawn of time. It is natural and normal; however, the male sexual drive should not be an excuse to control women or dictate social morals; this has also been going on since the dawn of time. Men need to recognize that their sexual drive is not the deciding factor of what is deemed socially acceptable. I do completely agree with you that male sexual desire is driven by a need gratification.
The late, great Sigmund Fraud believed that human development progressed in stages from oral, anal, latency, to genital. Fraud believed that over gratification or under gratification at a certain point in this development caused a fixation. I don’t want to argue the merits of Freudian Theory, but I do believe the male sexual drive must develop within the context of social values. Hard core pornography places no value on sexual activity other than a primal drive for pleasure.
Adults have the right to read or watch anything in the privacy of their home, but I also believe that the saturation of pornography, especially on the internet, is a huge step back for women and detrimental to the developing self image of our youth.
Maybe I am a prude in some respects. I view human sexual desire as normal. I simply believe it needs to be based on mutual respect and self control.
Emphasis mine.
I’m in my early 20s and I grew up with the “wonders” of internet porn. Personally, I spent a lot of my early porn years in the text-based stuff, but I’m more of a reader than a watcher of anything. I’m not thin or tan and the people participating in porn don’t make me feel bad about myself. Why? The way that other people look is not what I should compare my own self worth to, and as an individual, it is my choice to feel wonderful or inadequate or aroused or whatever the hell I feel when I see porn.
Eleanorigby: What you described is a bit beyond average porn, and your partner apparently has an interest in a dominant/submissive sexual relationship. However, there’s a difference between a healthy d/s relationship and the ones you’ve seen him look at online, which are unhealthy based on your description of the woman’s reaction. What your partner watches and what’s popular in pornography appear to be two very different things and I think it’s skewing your POV a bit.
You raise an interesting point, which might also have the potential to become a thread hijack. I am a person who enjoys the ol’ ‘‘rape fantasy’’ as much as the next girl (okay, probably way more than the next girl), but when I go snooping the internet for masturbation material, some of the stuff I find just makes me feel nauseated. I actually remember finding something that started out innocuous enough, and once the bar dropped lower and lower I actually had to stop what I was doing and get sick to my stomach.
The porn you’ve described on your partner’s computer would be a good example, though I’ve read far worse stuff to tell you the truth. I don’t understand why the idea of force and violence to a certain extent is something I find appealing, but when the line is crossed and the focus seems to be on humiliation and complete disregard for the sexual object as a human being, I get all squicked out. It might not make a lot of sense, but I see a difference between a fantasy about a man taking a woman for his sexual pleasure, and a fantasy about a sadistic asshole trying to make a woman’s life a living hell by tormenting her in every imaginable way possible. Both sort of fantasies exist, and the latter, frankly, scare me.
Does this mean I’m oversensitive, or do most folks find story arcs where women (or men, for that matter) are told, ‘‘You’re a worthless piece of shit and you’re good for only one thing?’’ to be normal in the realm of sex fantasy? We live in a culture where (psychologically/sexual health-ily speaking, at least) men and women are encouraged to embrace their fetishes, where freedom of sexual expression is lauded for all sorts of weird shit. But at what point do we say, ‘‘whatever floats your boat’’ and at what point do we say, ‘‘No, something is wrong here’’?
There are many pitfalls with porn and it is a changing media form. Most porn is directed at men and debases women to some respect. By that I mean women in the video are there to serve the needs of men at their own expense. Understanding this does not negate the effect it can have. The age of the person viewing this will certainly affect attitudes of what constitutes a healthy sexual relationship.
With that said, porn has changed considerably since it was mainstreamed into the home by video tape. Early porn attempted to involve a plot. There was some attempt at sexual interplay. That is rapidly, if not completely gone from modern porn. The level of male dominance/female submission is increasing. I’m not sure if the internet is playing a part in this or not. Certainly the ability to get free porn is linked to the internet. When you combine the brutal nature of modern porn with the ability for children to view it at any age I believe it will greatly detract from the fabric of society. I have had more than one woman confide in me that she has lost her sex life to a husband addicted to porn.
(Not to say you haven’t already, but) This is where you as a parent then step in and say, “Look, the fact is that some people are into things that I, personally, consider weird and depraved. Someday, you might be into some of those things yourself and while I don’t want to hear about it EVER, that is perfectly ok. What you do need to remember when you see these things online or at friends’ houses is that not everyone is into whatever it is you may be watching. The most important thing you can remember about sex is to be respectful of your partner and make sure they are just as happy as you are. What that entails is entirely up to you two, but respect is vital.”
The fact is, some women really do enjoy having men cum on their faces. Some women really do enjoy gang bangs. Some women really do enjoy wearing dog collars and being bossed around on their knees. Some women love being slapped around during sex and being called a dirty slut. Some men love women who will quite literally jump on their chests during sex. Some men love women who will wear a strap on and fuck them in the ass. Some men love women who will tie them up and beat them until their skin is swollen and red. This is all very much just as real as missionary, man and woman in love sex.
More so, when you see kinky stuff, it’s usually some variation of role play for most folks, I think. When my ex boyfriend would dirty talk and call me a dirty slut in bed, that didn’t mean he REALLY thought I was some nasty slut who was banging everyone. When I played along, batted my eyes, and said that I was a dirty little slut, that didn’t mean I thought I was a slut who banged everyone. It was a role we were both playing because we both enjoyed it- just like when we’d sometimes play naughty school teacher or whatever.
Sure, I wouldn’t want my kids watching porn of any flavor at most young ages, but once they are teens and bound to stumble upon it, I would just tell them that some people are into that, but the key is that each person involved must agree, must be happy, and must respect one another.
It’s true, and I admit that I was in error when I put it all on female insecurity and delusion. I did not mean to absolve men of their responsibility in the matter, which, looking back on it, was the effect of my words. Many (if not most) men are assholes; I know this because I’m a man and I hear the things men say about women when women aren’t in the room. And I see my friends treating women in ways that I find appalling, and which, if I caught myself doing, I would need to scrub my entire body vigorously with corrosive chemicals for hours to get rid of the stink.
I meant only to say that, to the extent that this kind of stuff is found in porn, the porn itself is reflective, not causative, of the problem. And I agree with you about your S&M example. I’ve watched some pretty objectionable porn in my day, but that example freaks me right out. Unfortunately, porn is to women today what the Army has historically been for men: quick cash when you don’t think you have anything else to offer the world. While some women are in porn because they love doing it (Asia Carrera comes to mind–she’s a member of Mensa and truly a brilliant woman, and she has said in interviews that she only got into porn and stayed in it because she likes sex more than anything else), it’s still true that some women are just doing it for quick cash or drugs. And you can often tell the difference. It squicks me right out to see women doing degrading things in porn that they clearly do not want to do and did not think they would have to do.
OTOH, I joined the military when I was 18 because I thought I had nothing else to offer the world and vice versa. It was by far the worst decision of my life, and there’s been a lot of negative fallout. I was too smart to give up on my other options, but not wise enough to take any of those options. Now my discharge makes it more difficult to pursue those options. So I can empathize and I can also say that porn is not the only place where young people do things for quick cash that they end up regretting.
That’s not about sex. That’s about one person asserting his will on another person and demeaning her. There’s nothing sexy, attractive, or stimulating about that.
In a perfect world, I would like to see that sort of behavior divorced from sex and see sex de-stigmatized so that it could no longer be used as a vehicle for demeaning women. I say women because I have to admit, that has been most often the case.
One thing I did find encouraging about porn, before I gave up on it, was that more women were getting involved in the production and direction of the movies. I don’t know if that trend continued, but at the time, the better movies were being made by women. Candida Royalle, for example.
To you. Or to me. But I assure you that there are many folks who find that sexy, attractive, AND stimulating. They are no more or less weird than someone with a preference for missionary. You might not agree with it, but so long as the two people involved DO (and obviously the girl in question DID, she signed a contract and was paid, after all), that’s all that matters.
That’s a good point. I guess the worry comes in with guys who seriously don’t seem to respect women who also make porn–Max Hardcore comes to mind. I’ve never seen his stuff, but friends have–apparently it looks very dehumanizing.
Anyway, that being said, as long as everyone is having a good time, it’s hard to get up in arms about anything being “too” intense. Then again, it’s often hard to tell when someone is being forced and when they’re not. Linda Lovelace claimed that every time we watch “Deep Throat” we are watching her being raped. But her co-stars would beg to differ…
Also, eleanorigby, keep in mind, probably no mommy wants to know her kid is watching hardcore stuff. It’s just weird. Looking at it from that perspective, it’s pretty creepy. And I personally don’t watch porn, but I’ve gotten off on some sick, sick Marquis de Sade stuff. Someone earlier said that the Victorian era had boring porn. I like to think it’s because Sade already saturated the market in the late 18th century.
I agree that there are those who find it stimulating. Let me try again. In the perfect world, it would be nice if no one found it sexy. If sex were not a taboo subject, the filmmakers would have just as much commercial success showing a man demeaning a women by forcing her to eat a hogdog as they would having him jack off in her face.
Also, in the perfect world, the filmmaker would have the same-sized market for a women demeaning a man by forcing him to eat a hotdog in a corner. Wait, bad example. There is a market for that.