I don’t see one either, especially considering that romance novel’s stylized relationship has definitely influenced the “chick lit” tendency to stylize the character’s lives into something that’s pretty unrealistic (after all, there aren’t too many women out there with a “perfect” job, wardrobe, friends, and SO all at the same time) for most of its readers. Books can be great for escapism, but at the same time, it isn’t recommended to only read escapist fantasy/romance/etc. novels without throwing in stuff that’d actually make you think about the world around you.
You may not have met them, but there are plenty of women out there that objectify people in photos/videos/stories as sexual/romantic objects, and, though a comparative minority, there are women who pay for sex with men. In fact, I’ve seen more women play with real life relationships as if the male partner within the relationship were just an object of romantic/sexual pleasure with the ultimate goal of turning the schlub aspects of him into a Fabio-style dynamo. It’s a sick grown-up form of “playing doctor” to your partner, and the majority of people playing this game are better off just trying to find someone who fits their criteria in the first place.
I’m going to paint with a broad brush here, so remember that i’m speaking in generalities.
For guys, even the most emotionally intelligent of them, there is a difference between having sex, fucking, making love, and masturbation.
For most men I know, masturbation is a completely selfish pleasure, devoid of any emotional quotient and fixated on release. Even if porn was more like erotica and had a background established, they would fast forward through it to get to the visuals that they are interested looking at for masturbatory purposes. THEY DON"T CARE at that level, and all that really matters is that the person in the porn meets their criteria for attractiveness.
I really don’t see how easier access to porn would ruin the experience of an adolescent. I don’t treasure those times at all, full of frustration and low confidence. So what that they can see a vulva? When did seeing that become a sacred relic only to be viewed in the most secret of places and times? It is a part of a human body, and every woman has one just like every man a penis. It shouldn’t be special. It should be a natural thing for adolescents to know and understand what it is, looks like, and is for, and let the magic come from experiencing the intensity of sex, not from some prudish furtive peeping.
Having sex and fucking require more investment on their time, and usually would require at least a light relationship (casual sex, fuckbuddy). In these circumstances most guys are still mainly focused on their physical pleasure, but any man of worth is also interested in the pleasuring of his partner; even if it is only to ensure a steady stream of repeat performances. This is where a lot of women get confused and hurt when they assume that the sex means something more than it actually does. Instead of breaking it off and talking about getting more serious, or dating exclusively, they keep up the sex in order not “to loose” the perceived boyfriend material. The simple fact remains that if you set parameters for a sex and friends only relationship, then men are not going to go any farther with it unless they develop significant feelings for you, and are willing to admit to them and give up considerable sexual freedom.
Making love comes only in the context of a loving relationship, and almost every man i’ve ever spoken with about this agrees that it is the best and most intense sex they’ve ever had. The problem is that getting the circumstances right to engage in that sort of sex is almost nigh impossible today with all the stresses placed on a relationship. Men also occasionally worry about setting to high a bar while engaging in this sort of sex and “ruining” more casual intercourse with their partner.
I am ok with porn, if that is what one needs. Actually there are couples who use it to enhance their sex lives. Personally, I can live without it, my partner and I are perfectly content enjoying each other. To answer the OP’s question if porn interferes or disables one from having sex with real partners? I don’t know, it may hinder a successful sexual encounter with another if the other person is turned off by it, or the man or woman who is obsessed with it tries to bring it into their bed. Let’s not forget that porn comes in many forms, therein lies another angle to consider.
I completely and absolutely agree with you–and I’ll go farther and say that I think there should be differences between all of these–I think we differ in the extent of the discrepancy.
It’s the same for women.
I’m still with you, but am concerned about the “criteria for attractiveness”, but I’ll go with it for now. (I think you mean that it’s normal and natural to find X attractive and Z not–we all have that hardwired. My concern comes when that criteria spills over into RL, ie, objectivizing. It’s just one aspect and not even my main point, so I’ll move on).
You missed my point. I don’t want the magic to come from furtiveness. I want the magic (so to speak) to come from the intimacy–which I would hope would intensify the experience for both partners. I have nothing against, in fact I would strongly advocate for both genders to be fully aware of how the sex organs look, operate and vary. I used the term wall to wall vulvas to highlight two things: the difference in availability of sexual images between the 1970s/1980s and now and also to underscore the mechanical aspects of sexual imagery today–it’s literally wallpaper, at least online. It’s not even fully noticed in a weird way. I would say, like phouka did upthread, that having sexual imagery as wallpaper in our lives does not enhance actual sex.
My other point was that the teen age boy(and girl) can now see all manner of sexual practices (and this is by all means not all bad), so they’re well-versed in the nuts and bolts of the various acts. How does that help him when faced with a real, live girl for the first time? If anything, I think that access would add pressure on the guy (and the girl), not lessen it. He may know now that tab A goes into slot B, but given that porn is so stylized and fake–how is he prepared for her responses (if any–afterall, she may be thinking, "how exactly do I respond to what he’s doing?) and how is he to not be influenced by what he has seen? You might say I’m overthinking this, but I’m drawing it out to make my point.
Sorry, this is where we fall down completely. I’m sure that it is partly our age differences (for the record, I am 45). I do not approve of fuck buddies–people are too complicated for this to work without someone getting hurt in the long run. The whole “steady stream” comment appalls me. That is just plain using someone for sex–and the being nice to them is just a sop to the conscience. I think people are better than that. I would like to think that people do more than just think with their cocks or vaginas.
That said, casual sex does happen–but if it’s a steady stream, you have something else going on; you can call it what you want, but someone will end up hurt, whether you ever know it/ admit it or not. It may well be you.
Wow–and the guy gets to sidestep ALL responsibility in this scenario. Woman is now gatekeeper of sex and holder of the bag. Nice. There are two people in that bed–let’s share a bit more than just the orgasms. Sex DOES indeed mean more to(most) women that it does to men. Sure, there are women for whom this is not true, but overall, women see sex as an act of intimacy–well, the women I know in RL do. I’ve said this here and have been shouted down by all the Doper women who don’t see sex that way at all. So, I say most women, not all women. We are raised that way, socialized to it–just as you are raised to see various levels of emotional engagement.
Because it’s hard, it’s not worth striving for? Sounds to me like these men need to talk to their partners a bit more–some of us occasionally like a “quickie” or just giving a guy a handjob etc. Usually you’ll find women willing to do this, IF she can rely on the fact that the road goes both ways–IOW, she gets that “high bar” sex upon occasion etc. Give and take.
I have no arguments with your views here, other than to say that the “bad boy” phenomenon has been well established in our culture, long, long before romance novels became popular. I don’t believe it serves to spark that idea, but it certainly reinforces it.
Oh, and would you believe the first romance novel I ever read, at the age of 12, was The Flame and the Flower? I tried going back and reading it again after college and couldn’t get past the first chapter, it was so bad.
My theory on why rape was originally such a plot contrivance in 60s and 70s romance novels and remains so in some sub-genres today is because it manages to neatly avoid the old and tired stereotype of “if a woman wants and enjoys sex, she’s a slut”. It also creates a conflict to drive the plot forward. IIRC, the hero in The Flame and The Flower, Brandon, doesn’t realize that he’s raping the heroine. He thinks she’s a prostitute hired for a night of frisky sex, and, of course, no one bothered to agree on a safety word. So, the hero remains sympathetic to the reader (I guess. I still wanted him beaten with a plank for being schtoopid), and the woman gets to have sex without encountering any moral judgment on her character.
Isn’t it sad that I retain plot and character details from a schlocky novel I read more than twenty years ago? I could have used that space in my brain for something so much more interesting and useful. Like how to cross-reference button manufacturers.
Well, that’s the really, really hard part. I don’t believe the government has any business dictating what individuals can watch, read, wank off to, or talk about. I think counting on the government to dictate what we can enjoy in mass media and culture is a very, VERY bad idea.
What that means though, is that we have to do it on our own. It’s not impossible. Other cultural movements have changed the way we think about certain activities - smoking, drunk driving, sexual harrassment, and seatbelt use - but those all had the government backing it up.
Heavens knows, if the government chose to dictate my menu to me, I would be a healthier, more financially stable person. Except, I’m an adult. I’m willing to take responsibility for the bad choices I make, and I don’t think anyone else has the right to tell me what I can put in my body.
It’s funny–rape is one of the number one fantasy that women can have that it almost feels vanilla at this point. Naomi Wolf talks about that, too, in her book. According to her, we’re living in a culture saturated with images of sadomasochism (patriarchal oppression and all that), so we come to see that as normal. Well, actually, she talked about the images that way. I’m not exactly sure how she would view a (relatively) normal woman who had those kinds of fantasies. Somehow, I think she’d put a damper on that, too.
I’m not really sure if that’s why I enjoy images of rape (and violence, for that matter), but I just know what I like.
But who is advocating for the Gment to do anything at all? Not I, not Naomi Wolf or the OP. I think it’s up to individuals to make their choices. I think in the future that porn will recede a bit into the background (everpresent but not in your face) and mystery and eroticism will come back. I hope…
This use of the term “vanilla” to describe sex really bugs me. Not picking on you, Zoggie, just a comment. Vanilla compared to what, exactly? How is vanilla vanilla? Is there some exotic standard to which we all are supposed to strive?
We all are. There’s no way around that. And I very much enjoy that we can have a civilized conversation about a topic that usually pushes buttons on everyone’s control panel.
Make your brush even wider. This applies to all human beings. Sex is context dependent, and we attach different values to different versions. The generalized difference between men and women tends to be that more men will admit to enjoying a wild fuck with no emotional attachment than women. Same thing applies to masturbation, though that’s changed remarkably in the last ten years.
The only time I have ever considered masturbation to be selfish is when a boyfriend of mine knew I was waiting for him in bed (wearing lingerie and everything), and he stayed out in the living room to have a quick wank to some internet porn. I wish I could say I dumped him that night, but it wasn’t that much later.
I’m going to join eleanorigby (and thank you, dearest, for your very flattering compliments) in pointing out that the crucial phrase is “the person in the porn meets their criteria for attractiveness”. If it were only that those criteria applied only to the actresses in porn, I would have no complaint.
However, no matter how often men swear and affirm that a live woman is better than a recorded one, those tastes show up more and more in the mainstream. Is it so difficult to understand that when the media portrays the kind of women men desire and that type is overwhelmingly the version served up in pornography, the rest of the women out there begin to think that they are lacking something?
If pornography as a whole showed a wide range of women and there was no overall “porn star” look, this argument would be moot. Women would know - because we are instructed on it everytime we turn on a TV or click on a website - that men find many, many, many different types of women sexually attractive. Unfortunately, with the exception of certain fetish sub-genre (Asian, cougars, fatties, etcetera) that are presented as being well OUT of the mainstream, there is one type of woman presented as desirable. That leaves the rest of us out in the cold.
Here’s where I’m going to start picking on you.
Adolescence, by its very nature, is a time of frustration and low confidence. It’s not just the boys who go through this. The girls do to. Pornography is not the panacea for the throes of adolescent angst. You are not carrying a banner that reads “boys of the world, unite! Get your porn!”
If the pornography available out there was well written, well produced, well acted, and factually correct, I would have no issue with it. Instead, it is overwhelmingly made of schlocky, careless, quick fix fucking that panders to the simplest tastes and gives absolutely no insight into the realities of sex, fucking, making love, or masturbation.
A boy (or a girl) who looks at porn as a tutorial in human sexuality is going to come away with an extremely warped view of human relations. There is no getting around it.
First, please understand that no one is suggesting that pictures of vulvas, ani, penes, breasts, and other erogenous anatomy by banned forever from the eye of a teenager. The problem, as it has always been, is the context they are shown in. They are part of the human body, and as such, should be a part of our discussion of the nature of the human body and its uses.
Second, sex should be considered something sacred. Not in the fluffy bunny, singing angels manner that some seem to leave it as, but in the full awareness that sex has the power to:
create new life
transmit incurable and fatal diseases
create a sense of intimacy unrivaled in other human relations
become the basis of one of our most basic bonds in society: romantic love
relieve tension and stress better than most pharmaceuticals
strengthen the immune system, fight depression, resolve insomnia, lower blood pressure, prevent prostate problems, and any number of other medical miracles
If pornography related that information in a factually correct, emotionally sensitive manner, I would have no problem with it at all. However, pornography, as a whole, tends to show sex as nothing more than a crude recreation in which women are turned into objects intended only for the insertion of a penis in as many orifices as a determined man can find.
Sex is portrayed as something that is as easy, casual, and inconsequential as brewing a cup of coffee. The consequences of sex - pregnancy, disease, emotional involvement and many others - are left completely out of the picture. Pornography has no context and thus shows the watchers that there is no context to sex.
Again, if it were only well-balanced adults flipping it on for a bit of visual stimulus to aid masturbation, this wouldn’t be an issue. But more and more, our society treats pornography as a legitimate description of how human relations should be pursued and achieved. More and more, we allow pornography to define our attitudes about different types of sex, the desirability of men and women, the consequences of sex, and context of sex within human relations.
Pornography has become, not just sexual titillation, but general entertainment. Sex pervades our culture, and with it, pornography has taken a central role. That’s my problem with it.
Widen your brush again. Just as many men get hurt in a “fuckbuddy” relationship as women do. Just as many men lie to themselves about the casualness of these relationships as women do. Just as many men go into these relationships with the hope that it will “turn serious” as women do.
And I completely agree with eleanorigby. People can pretend all they like that sex can be casual and friendly, with no consequences, but they are kidding themselves. They are doing themselves and their partners a grave disservice. Sex means babies. Sex means herpes and AIDS, and a dozen other unhappy but at least curable diseases. Sex means vulnerability. Sex means emotional involvement. Sex can begin lives and end them. It is ridiculous in this context to think of sex as mere aerobic stress relief.
And here, I think, is one of the most damaging elements of our culture’s attitude towards sex.
There is no such thing as sexual freedom. There is no such thing as sex without consequence. A person who indulges in casual sex with multiple partners is simply happy to expose him or herself and countless others to the chance of becoming parents, dying, or getting an incurable disease, and all for the sake of an orgasm. Pornography, as a whole, promotes the idea that sex has no cost, no price, no consequence, and no value.
Pornographers don’t do this intentionally. They are making visual aids for masturbastion and other sexual gratification. It’s the fact that we as a culture have turned pornography from a visual aid into a handbook that makes it so damaging.
Here’s an idea:
What if the prevelence of pornography and our obsession with cheap, instant sexual gratification where all the aspects of our stimulation (live person or recorded) meet our every whim actually prevents us from creating the relationships where we can have deep, physicall and emotionally satisfying sex?
What if, in our tearing hurry to gratify ourselves in the easiest way, we end up closing ourselves off to the potential of human relations and interactions.
Men use pornography as a visual aid for masturbation, and in doing so, reinforce their attraction to a very narrowly defined set of desirable features in a woman. Those tastes are carried over into the mainstream media, reinforced again and again for men and advertised as the only traits that will be found attractive to women.
Men who constantly use pornography now have a skewed idea of what the content of human sexuality and relations contain and what women are interested in and enjoy. Whether they mean to or not, that coarseness creeps into the general dialogue of our society. A woman is “hittable” or a “cougar” or otherwise pigeonholed as desirable or undesirable with no consideration of who she is as a person. Women come to view men as shallow thugs who want only to fuck and leave and couldn’t care less if their partner is left to deal with an unintended pregnancy, a primary outbreak of herpes, a bout of pelvic inflammatory disease, or simple loneliness from the failure to connect to another human being in a meaningful way.
Both genders are dealt a great disservice, and all because the cheap, easy gratification promised by pornography is so popular, we have begun to include it in our mainstream culture.
I think it comes up inevitably when there is a subject that stirs passions. If we decide “Something Must Be Done,” the first agency most people turn to is the government. Because not only can the government coerce our own change in behavior, it can do the same to everyone else. Instant presto! Our problem is solved!
Only it’s not, of course, as anyone who’s ever studied how well Prohibition worked knows.
And I’ll agree with you on the term “vanilla,” though it doesn’t really bug me that much. I think it has to do with our demand as a society for the latest and greatest, newest and sexiest version of whatever. We all want to be innovators so we can be credited with the latest “gotta have” whatever. So, sticking to the tried and true marks us as unadventurous, conservative, sticks-in-the-mud.
Well, aside from violence being visually interesting and providing a sort of catharsis to all involved, I suspect the reason “rape” fantasies (which I put in quotes, because the fantasy bears little resemblence to reality), is a combination of getting past the stereotype of “women aren’t allowed to like sex” and the thought that as a woman, she is so desirable, so attractive, so sexy, she has literally driven the man wild with desire.
It also swamps all the other worries about birth control, disease prevention, social awkwardness, and emotional intimacy that come with sex. He’s going to fuck her. It’s going to happen. It’s not her fault, and she won’t be held responsible for it. So she can just relax and enjoy it.
Of course, even though I also indulge in those fantasies, I find the underlying psychology of it dismaying to say the least.
Well, obviously, that changes for individuals, time periods, etc.
Dan Savage did say that a standard model these days comes with oral sex, so intercourse, oral sex, probably anal sex–all pretty vanilla. As soon as you intentionally introduce blood…probably you’re not in vanilla territory anymore. Also, if you’re using a safe word. But then again, earlier, I did say that rape fantasies are pretty vanilla these days. So, who knows.
My saying that rape fantasies are vanilla was just my way of saying it’s extremely common and not even something offensive or noteworthy, is all.
phouka–you bring up so many good points. I’ll add one for emphasis: when do you see a man in a porno wearing a condom? (I’m talking about hetero porn here–I have no idea if condoms are used in gay porn).
I had to read a number of romance novels for a class this summer. In 3 of the 4 of them–when it got to the hot sex scenes, the guy stopped and put on a condom.
I find this fascinating and disturbing (the difference, not the putting on of rubbers).
This makes sense…I’m just not sure if it’s why everyone likes it. That is, is it the enabling of the woman to feel like she can bypass the “women shouldn’t like sex” part of society that makes her like it? Or is it just the power dynamic in general? I just feel like so much of sex is about power play, whether it’s exerting power over someone else or the lack of power, that to take that out of sex would just make it very dull.
Rape fantasies are extremely common, are plain-vanilla inoffensive, and aren’t noteworthy? Man, am I out of touch.
My own fantasies involve giving the woman as much pleasure as I can, and rape is pretty much the opposite of that in my mind. Who wants an unwilling partner?
:: rereads previous few posts ::
Okay, I can see what phouka and Zoggie are saying. But that is far from the way I feel.
It’s not really about an unwilling partner…more the simulation of unwillingness. Now, obviously if you’re not into that, then having a “rape fantasy” play out would be a big turn off for you. But I think in recent years, more people have become more open about the supposedly sick, twisted things that get them off.
I was going to stay out of this, but I can’t help myself.
Unfortunately, this is what sells. I hate that fact, because it has resulted to a shortage of well-done stuff. However, I’ll argue that the fact that it sells so well is a comment on our “immediate gratification” society that is not limited to sex. It extends to our eating habits, our TV habits, our voting habits, etc.
I agree that both genders are done a disservice, but is pornography the cause, or just a symptom? Is pornography causing it, or pandering to it?
Let me go on a related tangent for a moment. My wife likes to watch the crime dramas on TV. I’m noticed that on every one of them, any time the plot involves sex, the characters involved in the sex are portrayed as perverts, murderers, child molestors and they either die or go to prison as a result of their perversion. The message being sent here is just as wrong as bad porn. Instead of “sex = easy gratification” message of pornography, the message is “sex = perversion”. (I’ll stay away from the “internet = sexual perversion” message for now). Isn’t this just as harmful to a healthy image of human sexual relationships as bad pornography? Isn’t it also pandering to an audience wanting to hear that message, just like bad pornography.
Hear hear. Preferably one without blurred feet, if abby is reading this.
Which (sort of) brings me to a point. Porn, like any top-down (snerk) media product, says a lot more about the people making it than the people watching it.
I think it’s up to individuals to make their choices. I think in the future that porn will recede a bit into the background (everpresent but not in your face) and mystery and eroticism will come back. I hope…