Does Porn Turn You Off of Sex With Real People?

Let’s separate things out a minute,

If someone had an addiction to anything, then they are by definition in the throes of a “Habitual psychological and physiological dependence on a substance or practice beyond one’s voluntary control.” - cite It wouldn’t matter if it was porn, video games, or heroin, they are sick and not responsible for their actions.

If they have fetishist type leanings then we have the following: “an object or bodily part whose real or fantasized presence is psychologically necessary for sexual gratification and that is an object of fixation to the extent that it may interfere with complete sexual expression” - cite Again a type of mental issue that has happened to focus on porn. I would think that someone who has this type of personality would have issues maintaining a healthy relationship in any case.

So we are left with normal guys who for some reason prefer porn over their partner. If it is variety needed, then that is a relationship issue. If it is quantity needed, then it is a relationship issue. If it is replacement, then it is a relationship issue. All of these imply a lack of communication and caring in both partners.

My relationship isn’t fine–I don’t have one and all of the ones I have had, ended badly, for reasons not related to pornography. So I’d have to say that the way you perceive me in this argument is an oversimplification, too.

As is the willingness to blame porn for failed relationships, while neglecting to entertaining the possibility that erotica could be to blame too. (FTR, I think that’s just as silly.)

Huh? Where did that come from?

OK. That’s not what I got from reading your other posts, including the two paragraphs right after this quote, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I thought it was oversimplistic, and I got the impression that the author was looking for specific answers when he interviewed people.

There’s irony for ya! :slight_smile: It’s the women who feel they cannot match up (at least in Wolf’s article). I don’t know that porn=decreased sex drive for men. I don’t think that Dworkin is correct in her thinking that men would become rapacious consumers of sex with real partners. I think some men are just plain more comfortable in the non-threatening world of porn. Not all men, perhaps not even a majority of men, but some are.

But, IMO, that’s a vicious circle–they feel more comfortable with porn, so don’t learn how to negotiate in bed with real women. Add to that any issues a woman may have with porn, with this partner and with sex in general (if any) PLUS outside factors such as work troubles, kids, money issues, family etc–it’s a wonder any guy gets it up and any girl gets off.

I’m exaggerating to some extent, but I can easily see turning to porn instead of working out problems. Porn will never let you down-and it’s available 24/7.

Acid Lamp–forgive my use of the word addiction. I did not mean it in the clinical sense. Given your definition of fetish, I confess I don’t understand your point about the guy’s having fetishist leanings re porn.

How so? Why both partners? For purposes of bringing defenses down, let’s make it the woman who prefers porn to her husband. How is this her husband’s lack of caring? Communication, perhaps–but caring?

I thought that’s what you were saying in that post. If not, then I misread.

I completely agree with you. I am NOT blaming porn for failed relationships. I am saying that porn can and does (in cases) negatively impact on relationships, especially intimacy. Talk about oversimplifying!

I was addressing AL re his fetish comment. I have asked him for clarification.

Please show me where I say porn has CAUSED the openness we see today. Porn is a symptom of something. I don’t know what it is, but (again) I think we are observing a change in the way we regard one another socially, sexually, and culturally.
Re the other article about guys. The author may well have been looking for specific answers. But what of those answers?–that’s what I’m asking.

I think we are discussing two separate but related issues (if not more) and that might be the cause of the confusion. We are talking about porn’s impact on sex drive and relationships, but we are also talking about the culture or porn or the pornographing/sexualizing of our society today. Both are related–probably intertwined. Does that help clarify?

This makes no sense to me at all, whatsoever. Pores and her own breasts and sexual needs of her own are things I look for in a woman. They’re big pluses. Any woman who thinks they’re liabilities instead of assets is either an idiot or is hanging around with the wrong men.

Too much of anything, porn included, isn’t good, but porn in itself isn’t bad. Porn can negatively impact relationships, but that is hardly the fault of the porn.

I still can’t imagine what Naomi Wolf describes. How porn actresses look and behave doesn’t affect me in the slightest. Am I just incredibly secure, or do I simply not care? I don’t know and since it’s working for me, I’m not inclined to find out.

I was trying to explore the various reasons someone might prefer porn to a live partner. Much like an addict, someone who has developed a porn fetish might well prefer his or her fetish subject to their partner.

It is a lack of caring because he or she can’t be arsed to figure out what must be an obvious issue, nor take any action to improve it. To let something go so long that one partner prefers porn to physical intimacy implies not only laziness in the relationship, but a distinct lack of caring in both partners. It is not an overnight change from regular loving intercourse to disdaining one’s partner.

I see a whole range of things happening in our world of cheap, ubiquitous, highly-stylized porn. First, I’m relieved to discover that Dworkin’s original prediction - that easy access to pornography would cause an increase in rape and other sex crimes - has not come true. In fact, the opposite has taken place. Rape and other sex crimes are on the decline, though, it is impossible to say whether easily accessible porn is the cause of this or correlated or completely unrelated.

Second, I agree in part with Wolf’s column, especially where she says:

When something is always present, constantly available, it loses some of its value.

As a prosaic example: when I was a child, every Christmas morning, my father would bake those Pillsbury orange danish-in-a-can, and we would fight over who got to put the orange icing on, and we’d scarf up three and four if we could get away with it. We only ever ate them on Christmas morning, so that orangey baking pastry smell is tied to Christmas in my brain. Then, when I was in high school, my dad started baking them more often. Once a month, and then once a week. They inevitably lost their Christmas specialness. When I went off to college and later got a place of my own, the orange danish only appeared for Christmas morning, and that specialness re-appeared.

That’s a very simplistic, easy to relate version, but I think it parallels what she’s speaking of. When sex is always on display, when it’s available at the click of a mouse button, when you can look at all the vaginas and penes your eyeballs can track, sex is no longer about a special connection between two people. It’s not even a fun romp. It becomes as commonplace and mechanical as sneezing.

Most of us recognize that there are precious few divisions between the public and private parts of our lives anymore, and most of us are unhappy at how blurred the line between childhood and adulthood is. I think the universal accessibility of pornography has created a similar situation in relationships, and because men tend to enjoy the visual stimulation it provides more than women (tend, I say. There are no absolutes), this skews the dynamic of heterosexual relationships.

Sex is always on display. It is discussed even in areas where it was once forbidden. About the only realm I haven’t seen it frankly addressed is politics.

This brings me to my third point, and that is, I don’t believe men are aware of just how much their general taste in porn is reflected in their comments about and behavior towards women.

I think it’s delightful that so many of the male members here have staunchly declared that a live woman always trumps a pre-recorded one, that the intimacy of a relationship is preferable to the convenience of a video purchase. But there must be something to the underweight, over-tanned, breast-implanted, waxed genitals, fake nails, and overacted ecstasy of the actresses in popular pornography, because that genre has taken over the mainstream of porn and generates the kind of sales that could fund a medium sized country.

When men discuss these things, when comments are made on the desirability of women - “real” or otherwise - they cleave closely to this strange canon so beloved in modern pornography. Is she skinny? Does she have big tits? Will she have casual sex? Even better, will she consider a threesome or a little girl-on-girl action?

I’ve seen comments on this board that lead me to believe consideration of a woman very rarely passes beyond the scope of whether or not the woman under consideration could get a job on a porn flick. Worse, any physical flaw, is picked out and mocked. And while the men making such comments may only be a small percentage of the board’s population, that talk is tolerated, if not tacitly encouraged.

If some men can so cavalierly rate and dismiss women and the rest take little notice, is it so unreasonable that women sometimes feel that they can’t win? If she chooses not to go the “porn star” route, her sexual worth to men is dismissed by the overall culture of sexual imagery. If she chooses to go the “porn star” route, then the only part of her that matters is her sexuality and its availability.

I think that plays a strong role in sex in our culture becoming something about as special as scratching one’s nose.

Acid Lamp–I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one. I think none of these situations benefit from simplification, as I’m sure you’ll agree.
Telperien says it best. Porn is just a product and can be abused or used well. Abuse and good use are subjective terms and will differ in their interpretation from era to era and from person to person.

I’m not arguing with any one here; I do have a question, though.
What if porn does negatively impact on relationships? What if porn does end up effecting not only single relationships, but also relationships in general? We’ve never lived in a society where sex has been this open–I really don’t want to talk about ancient Rome etc–it’s hardly pertinent. We’ve established (perhaps) that like any product, it’s what is done with porn that matters. That’s all well and good, but what to do with the fallout?

Please note that I am not saying that porn causes disaffection or the “open and easy” (some would say sluttiness) that surrounds us daily. But porn is a part of this “brave new world”–and what I think Ms Wolf is getting at is that there is and will be fallout from the pervasiveness of it all. Children’s clothing and even baby clothes now contain either outright sexual messages (in the case of infants) or suggestive cuts/lengths (note–most of these apply to female clothes, which is an entirely different thread). What the fallout will be no one knows–and for all I know, it could be positive overall, even though that hasn’t worked out for me, personally.
I hope that the others here don’t think that I am saying all porn=BAD.

phouka–you said it very well. Thanks!
And I agree with you. I’ve seen scattered throughout here over the few years I’ve been here, comments like “I’d tap that” etc. Hey, it’s a message board-I swear here etc. But phouka makes an excellent point–what happens next? and what of the differing roles here?

And afterall, it is only a limited version of sexuality that is acceptable and out there right now. No, I’m not talking about the website for furries etc, I’m talking about the mainstream, constant feed of siliconed, blonded, thin women who parade through our lives whether we want them there or not.
For myself in my own life and in my opinion, I think lack of intimacy is one example of fallout.

I wanted to address this as well.

Whatever print erotica (romance novels and the like) is, it is not objectifying. It is the opposite. The whole point of a romance novel is to give context and characterization, to turn the lurid picture on the front into a story where the reader can relate to both the hero and the heroine.

He has a name (inevitably something dashing and manly), a past, a family, strengths and weaknesses, and often, because the conflict between the hero and the heroine must be in a strictly specified form, certain personality details are extremely contrived. The hero is rarely understanding - at least at first - and often not of conventional good looks.

Yes, there is idealization beyond what most people’s suspension of disbelief can take, but it is not the false idealization of a very particular set of physical requirements. It is not even the female equivalent of money and power as many of the heroes are written to have just enough money and power to run their own lives, but not anyone else’s.

Yes, the sex scenes are the whole point of many romance novels these days, but without the plot, character, setting, and theme (true love, not hot sex, conquers all), there would be no audience for these books.

Is it ridiculous, escapist fantasy? Absolutely. Does it objectify men through one-dimensional portrayal of pieces of meat? Absolutely not.

What if it did, though? Is there anything we could do about it? And would we want to, or would it be a Brave New World-esque case of “soma gooooood”?

Of course we could do something about it. We are, without a doubt, the most self-aware human culture that has ever existed. We can review our thoughts, our actions, and our attitudes and bring into consideration what consequences these carry, and if we find the consequences unpalatable, then we can - as individuals and as a culture - decide to refrain from the thinking, the actions, and the attitudes that brings those consequences about.

How? By making the deliberate, conscious decision not to indulge in whatever may cheapen human sexuality.

Maybe that means not looking at porn for a day, a week, a month, or a year.

Maybe that means refusing to comment on a woman’s sexual desirability and focus on her character.

Maybe that means turning those boxes of old romance novels into recyclables.

Easy? Hell, no. But nothing worth doing ever is.

Huh? So we live for the release? The few moments of hormonal and steroidal release? That’s all?

What can we do about it? How do we navigate through the sea of porn to real relations? I pity the young people today in a way. They know all about the mechanics, but what do they know of discretion, of anticipation? Sure, broad brush–but seriously, when vulvas stare out at you from all sides–what of mystery?

My generation was taught the biology and no technique–hell, National Geographics were tattered and torn in the library and to score a Playboy was a huge deal for the boys I knew. Now any 12 year old can see a porno featuring godknowswhat.

And how does that help him learn about real women? How does that help him relate to real women? There is a release for the 12 year old–an immediate one. But what else is there for him?

I (again) agree with phouka, who is much more eloquent about this than I am. One can set their own standards for their sexuality–and not let the wall to wall porn set them. One can invest in their sexuality, not as a commodity, but as a gift to be shared. How to relate this to my kids? I don’t know-but I think it starts with critical thinking of porn and also a healthy self esteem and body image for both genders.

Yes.

I wasn’t clear upthread, but I make a distinction between erotica and romance novels (no matter how steamy). Erotica to me is a piece of writing that focuses on the sexual experience. A romance novel has a plot and character development etc. as phouka has said. However, any reliance on whatever it is (porn, erotica or romance novels) that detracts from the one to one relationship is not healthy.

Yeah, we could. I’m just wondering who would. And it’s hard to enforce something like this without getting into the whole censorship ban. I dunno–I just saw “Inside Deep Throat” and yeah, maybe there are some bad aspects to the ready access to porn in our culture. But the alternative could lead us down a bad slippery slope.

Plus, it’s hard not to do something you really really REALLY enjoy. Like when Stoid posted that thread about how vibrators may not be so good for women in the long run…I know that if someone came out with a study about how vibrators cause all these problems, I’d still have a hard time (no, sorry, an impossible time) getting rid of my vibrator.

Romance novels propogate a particularly dangerous piece of propaganda: that a bad boy can be “made good” through the devoted love of a woman. As far as I’m concerned this is more ultimately dangerous to the female psyche than any number of pairs of fake tits. Porn presents a highly stylized version of the sex act. Romance novels present a highly stylized version of the relationship. Like I said, I don’t see a notable qualitative difference.

I enjoy romance novels. I used to be a somewhat notable person in the industry actually. But if you argue that the use of escapist fantasy damages one’s ability to enjoy reality*, I’d have to say that romance novels have equal potential as porn to present a problem. Does it bother anyone that the first and most imitated modern romance novel – The Flame and the Flower by Kathleen Woodiwiss – was more or less on the theme of a captive that falls in love with her rapist/captor?

*Please note I am not endorsing this argument. I actually disagree with it. My point is IF you accept it then the rest follows.

Or the female life - how many women are killed every year by their “bad boy” boyfriends?

Thank you!

I have yet to meet a woman who masturbates to a picture of Brad Pitt or any man. I have yet to meet a woman who pays for sex with a man. A Woman doesn’t value a man because of his ability to provide sexual gratification. Women are objectified in porn because they are not seen as a breathing, thinking, and complex people. They are viewed as an object to be used for male sexual gratification.

I have no problem with adults watching porn, swinging from the rafters in leather chaps, or swapping sexual partners at parties. I believe whatever floats your boat is fine.

I do have a problem with the saturation of porn on the internet and the exposure to young people. There is some hardcore, hedonistic porn out there. It sends a confusing message at a time when sexuality is only developing and identity is formed. There is nothing wrong with a man or adolescent looking at and desiring a beautiful woman. I can’t think of anything more natural. It is the unadulterated level of smut available and easily accessed online, everything from gang bangs to bestiality. No wonder young girls feel inadequate.

I would argue that romance novels of the sort being discussed view men as an object to be used for female emotional gratification.

I will be the first to come out and say I prefer writing/reading erotica to actually having a sexual relationship with a real human being. Sex for me is mostly a relationship maintenance tactic. I am aware of the fact that this is not healthy, and I’ve taken great strides to fight it and will continue to do so because I believe my husband deserves better. But this is one chick who would happily choose the fantasy over the reality every time. And that has nothing to do with the attractiveness/desirability of him, and everything to do with me.

Since I view erotica as the equivalent of porn (so I need some kind of emotional context to get off… doesn’t make it any less of a means to an end), it is not a hard sell, to me, to comprehend a man hiding from his relationship issues through the overuse of porn.

But I don’t view porn as inherently problematic in itself. I think its prevalence is a bit disconcerting… I got schooled on this matter during college when I lived with a bunch of guys. Some of these men are absolutely incapable of respecting a woman that they are sexually attracted to. It’s like a little part of their brain shuts off. Living with them, being exposed to that kind of unconscious female loathing on a daily basis, was an incredibly demeaning and demoralizing experience. These are men who I otherwise respect and actually kinda love, and it’s easy to love them because all of their sexist, objectifying comments come with a great sense of humor and ‘‘it’s all in good fun’’ joviality.

I do not suggest that their attitudes were because of porn, but certainly I imagine they were reinforced by it. There aren’t really many messages out there to contradict their fucked up perception of women other than the few women they know… most of which, naturally, pander to the stereotype. If these young men are constantly surrounding themselves by objects for their consumption, it’s not unreasonable to suppose they will come to see similar-looking girls as also objects for their consumption. And young women, in turn, will behave as those desired objects should behave, and go on objectifying the young men to fulfill their emotional needs. What you have is a mutual kind of using and nothing remotely resembling real intimacy. There is an emptiness there, and it was depressing to observe. It was the rule rather than the exception for my college experience.

But it doesn’t really affect my life much personally, since my husband is not into porn and is so into the emotional part of sex that his idea of sexy bedroom talk is, ‘‘I value you as a human being’’ and ‘‘You’re such a good person’’ that it’s impossible to imagine him sexually objectifying anything.

Basically I’m wired like the stereotypical guy. Sex is a means to an end – orgasm. When I want it, that’s all I care about (I also respond incredibly well to visual stimuli, another ‘‘boy brain’’ quality.) When we’re done, I’m already thinking about the next thing to do and he wants to cuddle. First and foremost in a romantic relationship I need intense emotional intimacy, but I seek it completely outside the context of sex. He, on the other hand, views sex as an intimate expression of love. I can cognitively grasp this, but I only can grasp this emotionally on very rare occasions.