Does Porn Turn You Off of Sex With Real People?

[Hostile_Dialect]

If a college-aged woman tells you that her male peers who look at porn are less likely to want sex with her, she is smoking something amazing and you should probably buy some.

@Hello Again

Let’s face it we’re all inadequate somehow as compared to someone. In my experience women are more likely to compare themselves harshly with an external standard then men are likely to do so.

You’d be surprised.

@Kalypso

On the other hand, I had a boyfriend who was a real porn officianado, pretty much his entire online experience was porn. I did feel inadaquate because none of the women he liked looking at looked anything like me. When I mentioned it he told me not to worry, because women that pretty wouldn’t be interested in him. Though quite true, it did not make me feel better.

What a dick!

I really don’t think that’s how most guys think about it. My experience, like that of Acid Lamp, is that women IRL are way hotter because they’re real. I’m not saying that the women in porn aren’t “real”–I’ve had real-life relations with women who could’ve made a pretty big splash in the porn world if they wanted to–but the woman IRL is there, she wants me, and she’s sharing herself with me. Porn girls are not in the same ballpark–hell, they’re not even playing the same sport.

I don’t understand why so many women really believe that porn is a threat to their sex lives. How did such a massive understanding of male sexuality take hold? What can we do to dislodge it?

@unconventional

I am a female, and I detest porn. I consider it a turn off. It objectifies women; it isn’t natural (sex with ten men at a time is not natural) and it now saturates the internet.

There’s feminist porn out there too, you know.

@Zoggie

But then again, I’m the kind of girl who gets intrigued by a guy describing her as looking sort of like “the actress who was in Goodfellas, and who played the woman Robert DeNiro raped and assaulted in Cape Fear…”

Huh. I’d never seen that movie, but I dated a girl who had recurring nightmares about being raped and assaulted by Robert DeNiro. It must’ve been from that. And checking the IMDB website, the actress with the exact same name as that ex is in the movie! That explains a lot…

@Alex_Dubinsky

they’re both true

Bullshit. What, it’s true just because someone said it is? How do people completely ignore what actual men have to say about this?

[eleanorigby]

I think that porn can lead to unrealistic expectations on the part of the man for his partner–in terms of responsiveness, touch, preferences and the actual response(not to say that it does, but that it can). I think heavy porn watching does a couple no favors at all–depending on the couple. I speak from personal experience. I realize there are couples out there who fully enjoy porn and feel it enhances their sex life. (I have yet to meet any such couple in real life, but that may be because porn is usually not a discussion among couples face to face. At least not of my generation).

I confess I don’t understand how porn can be such an enhancement for both partners. What happens in your bedroom is your business, so I am not judging those people, just saying I just don’t get it.
Porn can and is used as a way of distancing one self from a real relationship-more so than will ever be admitted to here(I’ve had this conversation many times here. What I hear here does not jive with what I’ve heard from girlfriends in RL. No doubt there is middle ground, sorry to digress). I don’t necessarily agree with Ms Wolf re “young women know they can’t compete”–I don’t think that competition is the correct word. I think compare is a better one. I know I am not airbrushed, cellulite free and eager to take all nine inches down my throat. When I was 118 pounds and pretty damned hot, if I do say so myself, I still had body image issues (more so than now–young women are incredibly hard on themselves re their looks). And it’s not just looks or body–it’s what’s done in porn. I don’t act like that, I don’t want to act like that(in or out of bed), I don’t have a lot of respect for women who do act like porn stars do on screen.

Speaking for myself, I know I will not climax in 5 minutes, that I would never let a guy come all over my face, that I wouldn’t have sex with a pizza delivery person. To see someone do so irks me beyond words. It’s BS; it’s not real; and you will get a not so nice surprise once we’re in bed because I don’t follow that script. Supposedly guys know this. IME, the pizza and the money shot aren’t expected, but the rest?

Ok, so porn is supposed to equal fantasy. Perhaps I am imaginationly* retarded then, because 1. I don’t fantasize like that at all. and 2. it seems that the emphasis is on the man’s climax, no matter how many times Bambi screams out O God. My expression of sexuality does not compare to Bambi’s–in fact, Bambi is an alien to me.

Porn is also easier–no fickle partner to please. No “but this worked and you got off last time–what is your problem this time” type thing. Mistee will always do what you want-every time. And she can go until you get tired. I see the appeal of porn to certain guys.

I have never seen my fantasies online or in a movie. No, they don’t involve a Kitchen Aid mixer, peanut butter and small animals… My fantasies deal with much LESS detail–more like a montage of shots of skin, tongue, hands, body parts. I can get hot just watching a guy roll up his Oxford shirt sleeves–depending on the guy, his hands and the way the light falls on his arms.
My fantasies have no “plot”; no farcical interaction between siliconed people etc. The whole thing is a turn off for me (I mean porn in general). To risk a bad pun, porn is too in your face for me. Plus, it’s dull. It’s the same thing, time after time. Yes, look, she’s sucking on his cock, again. And sucking on his cock is making HER come! What an interesting concept… (not that one is not aroused by arousing one’s partner, I’m just saying).
Erotica is a different story–like most women, I prefer to read about sexual encounters and then imagine.
Sometimes I think it’s all a cruel joke. Men are wired to be visual and aroused by the visual. Women are wired to be sensual and aroused by sensations. He wants to see/watch/look and she wants to touch/feel/be. (a gross generalization, but overall, I think I’m correct).

*imaginatively means something else. I want to say my imagination is stunted, not that I am creatively dull. Or something.

[eleanorigby]

Damned edit window (must preview). Re my getting excited by watching a guy roll up his sleeves–it’s not the visual so much as I can imagine the sounds of the cloth folding, the warmth of his skin, the smell of his cologne or body–that and the visual.

Felt I needed to add that. Carry on.

[elmwood]

Normally, I don’t give the shriller brand of feminists the attention tey want. Still, I wonder if Naomi Wolf may have a bit of a point.

I’m 41. In the 1970s and 1980s, there was almost no access to porn for teenagers; your father’s Playboy, a waterlogged copy of Hustler found in the woods, and the humping one could barely make out on the scrambled Playboy Channel, and that was about it. For many young men, their first sexual experiences happened long before they saw their first porn film. Sure, there was sex-ed, but it dealt more with the biological, psychological and medial aspects of sex; not positions and pleasuring.

Today, in 2007, unless they were raised in a strict fundamentalist environment, young men will likely see a fair share of hardcore porn before they become sexually active. Where the Generation Xer might have learned about lovemaking through trial-and-error, or if they were lucky, a purloined copy of The Joy of Sex, today’s generation have free porn.

Dopers tend to be older; the Generation X and Baby Boomer crowd. What about younger Dopers; those who were teenagers in the late 1990s and early 2000s, when widespread Internet access became the norm?

Wolf claims that young women may feel like they can’t compete with the women of a porn flick, but nothing has been said about how young men feel. Yes, I know the average erect penis size among male porn starts and Straight Dope members may be eight inches, but in the real world it’s five to six. Also, if a woman doesn’t respond like a porn star, will a young man think he can’t satisfy her for some reason? Will he think that he’s at fault rather than her? Most real men aren’t packing. Most real men can’t last for what may seem like hours.

[Hostile_Dialect]

@eleanorigby

Porn can and is used as a way of distancing one self from a real relationship-more so than will ever be admitted to here

IME, porn is for when I don’t have a “real relationship” and am not about to find myself in one soon. (That’s not an absolute–if for some reason I can’t spend time with my GF, I’ll still look at porn.) I think that’s true for most men. Where it’s not, I think your girlfriends have to think about whether the porn is the problem or their relationship is. Porn is no substitute for human contact in healthy brains, and anyone who thinks otherwise may well be deluding themselves.

@eleanorigby

I think compare is a better one.

I have never, not once, not ever, unfavorably compared a real woman in a real relationship to a woman on a screen. Again, I think most men will agree with me, and those who don’t are not worthy of real relationships.

@eleanorigby

Ok, so porn is supposed to equal fantasy. Perhaps I am imaginationly* retarded then, because 1. I don’t fantasize like that at all. and 2. it seems that the emphasis is on the man’s climax, no matter how many times Bambi screams out O God. My expression of sexuality does not compare to Bambi’s–in fact, Bambi is an alien to me.

It’s a little misleading to generalize porn like that. Female masturbation and lesbian porn have a gargantuan market share, and while they may be aimed mostly at male pleasure, those are both solely about female pleasure in terms of content.

[Hostile_Dialect]

@elmwood

Dopers tend to be older; the Generation X and Baby Boomer crowd. What about younger Dopers; those who were teenagers in the late 1990s and early 2000s, when widespread Internet access became the norm?

Wolf claims that young women may feel like they can’t compete with the women of a porn flick, but nothing has been said about how young men feel.

Plenty has been said. For example, I was born in 1986.

[Hello_Again]

@eleanorigby

Erotica is a different story–like most women, I prefer to read about sexual encounters and then imagine.

I do not see a qualitative (or a quantitative*) difference between women’s use of print erotica and men’s use of visual pornography. Both hold the other to an absurdly unrealistic ideal – men in romance novels are extremely good looking, understanding, and will go down on a lady for hours without getting cramp in their neck – and both are a form of escapist fantasy.

When you say that YOUR objectifying, ridiculous fantasy is ok, but his is not, I perceive a problem. I don’t mean to single you out; many women have this idea that porn is the cause of all the world’s evil betwixt men and women yet beefcake shots of Brad Pitt in People magazine are just harmless fun.

*romance novels account for more than 50% of fiction books sold in the US.

[eleanorigby]

@fetus

IME, porn is for when I don’t have a “real relationship” and am not about to find myself in one soon. (That’s not an absolute–if for some reason I can’t spend time with my GF, I’ll still look at porn.) I think that’s true for most men. Where it’s not, I think your girlfriends have to think about whether the porn is the problem or their relationship is. Porn is no substitute for human contact in healthy brains, and anyone who thinks otherwise may well be deluding themselves.

Hmmmm. This sounds a bit like blaming the “victim” to me. I can think of at least 5 women I know who have shared with me that their marriages are suffering/have suffered/are over due to porn(myself included, so that makes 6). Of course, no doubt they are wrong and you are correct.

We may well be dealing with an age issue here–these women are all in their late 30s and early to mid 40s.

I have never, not once, not ever, unfavorably compared a real woman in a real relationship to a woman on a screen. Again, I think most men will agree with me, and those who don’t are not worthy of real relationships.

Well, that’s nice. My experience with it does not match yours. I’m sorry if this comes across as bitchy here, but your comments are unhelpful. I’ve said I my piece and you say that you wouldn’t act like that and no worthy man would. Whre does that leave me?(or the my GFs in Rl?) Where does that lead the discussion? Something–I don’t know what–but something is happening to intimacy and relationships and I think that the marked prevalence of porn is a part of it. Not sure how or why, but it is.

It’s a little misleading to generalize porn like that. Female masturbation and lesbian porn have a gargantuan market share, and while they may be aimed mostly at male pleasure, those are both solely about female pleasure in terms of content.

OK-so I’ll specify and say that heterosexual porn made for a hetero male audience–and sorry, but I include the female mastubatory ones in there. Which I think everyone in this thread also assumed and presumed the other posters were referring to. I have no desire to watch a woman get off–not on screen–it’s fake; I know it’s fake. And no, I don’t want to watch a female in RL get off, either.

[scotandrsn]

@Zoggie

…but I don’t think anyone I know would rather be d/ling porn than in a relationship–unless they had other issues. Which is also fine–being unready for a relationship doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a porn addict. …

I would say that this is a misinterpretation of the main gist of the article. The more telling quote is this:

@Naomi Wolf

…Now you have to offer—or flirtatiously suggest—the lesbian scene, the ejaculate-in-the-face scene. Being naked is not enough; you have to be buff, be tan with no tan lines, have the surgically hoisted breasts and the Brazilian bikini wax—just like porn stars. (In my gym, the 40-year-old women have adult pubic hair; the twentysomethings have all been trimmed and styled.) Pornography is addictive; the baseline gets ratcheted up. By the new millennium, a vagina—which, by the way, used to have a pretty high “exchange value,” as Marxist economists would say—wasn’t enough; it barely registered on the thrill scale. All mainstream porn—and certainly the Internet—made routine use of all available female orifices. …

What she is saying is that the young women feel like if they want to keep a man’s attention sexually, they have to be willing to do anal or facial or girl-on-girl, or get a boob job or a bikini wax… even if that’s not particularly what they want to do themselves. Otherwise the guy, raised by porn to believe that women willing to do these things to attract his attention, and not ask for anything they want themselves, are falling from the rafters, will move on.

Later on, she suggests that the guys just wind up disillusioned:

@Naomi Wolf

…The young men talk about what it is like to grow up learning about sex from porn, and how it is not helpful to them in trying to figure out how to be with a real woman. Mostly, when I ask about loneliness, a deep, sad silence descends on audiences of young men and young women alike. They know they are lonely together, even when conjoined, and that this imagery is a big part of that loneliness. What they don’t know is how to get out, how to find each other again erotically, face-to-face. …

[eleanorigby]

@Hello Again

I do not see a qualitative (or a quantitative*) difference between women’s use of print erotica and men’s use of visual pornography. Both hold the other to an absurdly unrealistic ideal – men in romance novels are extremely good looking, understanding, and will go down on a lady for hours without getting cramp in their neck – and both are a form of escapist fantasy.

When you say that YOUR objectifying, ridiculous fantasy is ok, but his is not, I perceive a problem. I don’t mean to single you out; many women have this idea that porn is the cause of all the world’s evil betwixt men and women yet beefcake shots of Brad Pitt in People magazine are just harmless fun.

*romance novels account for more than 50% of fiction books sold in the US.

You misread me. I said women prefer erotica to porn, because of the feelings it evokes, instead of the visual form like porn. Erotica is another type of porn (or vice versa). I did not say that my escapist form was OK, and his was not. I will argue that erotica (and I don’t include romance novels in erotica, but I don’t read romance novels, so perhaps that’s my ignorance–I read them when I was a teen and all of them ended in a chaste kiss. Times are different now, so I need to reclassify them in my head). Having taken an adult popular fiction class this summer, what passes for “romance” now is definitely X rated. So, I concede the pirate example I used. But that is not my fantasy–as I said, I’ve never seen my fantasy portrayed in any form of media.

I don’t see Brad Pitt’s beefcake as harmless fun–I think that sort of stuff is treated dismissively in our society, almost condescendingly because it involves female sexuality. I am no prude but I find myself baffled by the UPS calendars and the like. Is this equality? To dress like a skank and scope out men the way we have been scoped for eons? Not for me, thanks. Sorry, didn’t mean to broaden the discussion to dress and celebrity stuff, but it is part of my larger point: something, a change is occurring in how we relate, how we express our sexuality and with that, our expectations as a society in terms of that expression. I think porn plays a huge part in that (for ill or for good remains to be seen), as do romance novels, erotica and cheese and beefcake.

Does that help?

[eleanorigby]

I think this part of the article is very telling:

After all, pornography works in the most basic of ways on the brain: It is Pavlovian. An orgasm is one of the biggest reinforcers imaginable. If you associate orgasm with your wife, a kiss, a scent, a body, that is what, over time, will turn you on; if you open your focus to an endless stream of ever-more-transgressive images of cybersex slaves, that is what it will take to turn you on. The ubiquity of sexual images does not free eros but dilutes it.

What Wolf says about the headscarf etc on the Orthodox Jewish woman scares me a bit, though.

[Freudian_Slit]

@fetus

Plenty has been said. For example, I was born in 1986.

fetus, you’re two years younger than me? I thought for sure you were a much older guy! (I mean that as a compliment…)

@scotandrsn

What she is saying is that the young women feel like if they want to keep a man’s attention sexually, they have to be willing to do anal or facial or girl-on-girl, or get a boob job or a bikini wax… even if that’s not particularly what they want to do themselves. Otherwise the guy, raised by porn to believe that women willing to do these things to attract his attention, and not ask for anything they want themselves, are falling from the rafters, will move on.

See, I don’t really get that impression either, from real life. The relationships I’ve been in and have observed have fallen apart for many different reasons…but not for stuff like that.

I mean, I’ve probably done things that people in the past were maybe less likely to do (messing around with girls, having a guy come on me, experimentation with anal), but I don’t think I’m doing that because of the “pornified” culture. I mean, for example, I have a really hairy…um…nether region. Yeah, I wax most other parts of my body, but if I were really influenced by porn culture, wouldn’t it make me feel bad about having such an intensely hairy bush? And conversely, no guy has ever commented on it. I’ve never gotten the, “But…but…shouldn’t you be shaving it like all those girls in porn?” reaction from anyone. Honestly, they mostly just seem so grateful to be getting some pussy that they don’t care if it’s shaven or not.

[Freudian_Slit]

@eleanorigby

What Wolf says about the headscarf etc on the Orthodox Jewish woman scares me a bit, though.

Yeah, there were serious shades of Wendy Shalit (she of “A Return to Modesty” fame) there. Shalit really gets off on the idea of let’s up everything so that the mystery will return to sex/relationships.

[eleanorigby]

Here’s a link to another article (it was in a box accompanying the Wolf article). This is from a guy’s perspective.

pornandguys?

[Acid_Lamp]

@eleanorigby

I think this part of the article is very telling:

What Wolf says about the headscarf etc on the Orthodox Jewish woman scares me a bit, though.

Bollocks. It IS a pavlovian type response, but it is NOT subject to the type of effect she describes unless the man already has some sort of prediliction to fetishism. Rather the range of what causes the response is merely expanded by viewing different types of porn.

I have been with my Fiancee’ exclusively for 5 years now. She can turn my switch with a raised eyebrow and we’ve done plenty of the kinky stuff. I find vanilla intercourse with her JUST as interesting and exciting now, as ever, and just as interesting as a kinkier encounter. I would suggest that that is simply the effect of an open and healthy relationship. We have our problems and stresses but rarely allow them to be brought into the bedroom. I think that instead of blaming porn, people examine their relationships and figure out what is causing the issuse. Porn is what is turned to for variety, or replacement. Other use of it would seem to be unhealthy, a symptom of a problem, rarely the cause.

[Hostile_Dialect]

@eleanorigby

Hmmmm. This sounds a bit like blaming the “victim” to me. I can think of at least 5 women I know who have shared with me that their marriages are suffering/have suffered/are over due to porn(myself included, so that makes 6). Of course, no doubt they are wrong and you are correct.

I didn’t say that, I said that the problem may be their relationship. I never said that the women in question caused the relationship problem in question, although your quick defense of that straw man is making me start to wonder.

@scotandrsn

What she is saying is that the young women feel like if they want to keep a man’s attention sexually, they have to be willing to do anal or facial or girl-on-girl, or get a boob job or a bikini wax… even if that’s not particularly what they want to do themselves. Otherwise the guy, raised by porn to believe that women willing to do these things to attract his attention, and not ask for anything they want themselves, are falling from the rafters, will move on.

The porn MB I subscribe to always has several threads open about women with tan lines, women over 30, chubby women, women with natural breasts, hairy bushes, etc. I think the standard concept of porn as a carrier of unrealistic expectations doesn’t actually take into account what real men look for in porn.

@eleanorigby

I said women prefer erotica to porn, because of the feelings it evokes, instead of the visual form like porn.

Believe me, I only watch porn for the feelings it evokes. It’s not the visual aesthetics of it, it’s the end effect. Just like your erotica, but with actual people.

@eleanorigby

something, a change is occurring in how we relate, how we express our sexuality and with that, our expectations as a society in terms of that expression. I think porn plays a huge part in that (for ill or for good remains to be seen), as do romance novels, erotica and cheese and beefcake.

OK, but do you really think porn caused this societal force, or do you think this societal force created the skyrocketing porn market? For example, porn from the Victorian era is incredibly boring, reflecting the sexual mores of the time.

[eleanorigby]

But fetus, the porn IS a part of their relationship–that’s part of the problem. I put victim in quotes to underscore that I don’t feel that they are victims–I don’t feel like a victim of porn–but it has had a negative impact on my marriage.

I don’t understand why this is not clear to you.
Re Victorian porn–if was incredibly erotic at the time, given the social mores prevalent. The fact that it no longer is adds support to Wolf’s argument about how we need more etc.

[Hostile_Dialect]

@eleanorigby

But fetus, the porn IS a part of their relationship–that’s part of the problem. I put victim in quotes to underscore that I don’t feel that they are victims–I don’t feel like a victim of porn–but it has had a negative impact on my marriage.

I don’t understand why this is not clear to you.

How can I be blaming the victim if there’s no victim in the first place?

@eleanorigby

Re Victorian porn–if was incredibly erotic at the time, given the social mores prevalent. The fact that it no longer is adds support to Wolf’s argument about how we need more etc.

Victorian porn, AIUI, was based on themes of naughty indulgence, a quick, lusty peek at that which is not to be seen or heard about. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to consider that a reflection of the cultural norms of the time, and to consider modern porn’s themes of overindulgence, androcentrism, and free and open sexuality a reflection of today’s cultural norms, rather than a cause of same.

[eleanorigby]

@fetus

How can I be blaming the victim if there’s no victim in the first place?

Gah–this is where this type of communication breaks down. I don’t think you, personally, are blaming the victim. What I mean is that it is too simplistic to say–“well, it must be their relationship(s) because mine is fine”–that type of thinking gets us nowhere. I shouldn’t have used that phrase–it just obscured the issue and took it on a useless tangent. This addresses Acid Lamp’s post as well: the men (husbands) that I am aware of(with this issue) have no fetishist leanings. Or are you considering what is essentially an addiction(to porn) a fetish in itself?

I think it’s perfectly reasonable to consider that a reflection of the cultural norms of the time, and to consider modern porn’s themes of overindulgence, androcentrism, and free and open sexuality a reflection of today’s cultural norms, rather than a cause of same.

Yes, it WAS a reflection of the mores of the day, as is our porn today. I don’t disagree with that. I also do not think that porn has caused the free and open sexuality of today. Maybe you’re conflating my posts with someone else’s(?).

I agree with Naomi Wolf in part. I do think that given that porn in now so pervasive that intimacy will (and already does) suffer. In this world of hot chicks and constant “wanting it”–where is there room for other types of connecting? When I say that perhaps girls today can’t compare with porn actresses, I mean they can’t turn off being themselves–they are going to worry about finals, or their parents or STDs or pregnancy. Guys will worry about this stuff too (one hopes-there are still guys that don’t think they have to worry about birth control. And to be fair, there are still girls who will manipulate guys and outright lie about BC).

What I’m trying to say is that RL sex is not at all like porn except in mechanics. The phone rings or he can’t get it up. She can’t come or doesn’t want to keep using the toy he likes so much–whatever the issue is, a heavy use of porn does nothing to help prepare anyone of either gender for the negotiations and compromises that a real sex life requires. The guy at the end of the article summed up this attitude well–he’s well versed in mechanics, but knows nothing about intimacy. I find this repellent. YMMV.

What say you to the article from the guy’s perspective?

[nashiitashii]

@eleanorigby

But fetus, the porn IS a part of their relationship–that’s part of the problem. I put victim in quotes to underscore that I don’t feel that they are victims–I don’t feel like a victim of porn–but it has had a negative impact on my marriage.

I think that the “porn problem” within these relationships is more a result of a breakdown in communication and compatibility issues are more at hand than porn creating a lack of sex drive in the partners. Maybe the men in the relationships feel inadequate in their relationship due to external issues or problems unrelated to sex and turn to porn as a safe haven away from having to deal with yet another area where they cannot match up to what their partners expect.

Personally, I like some porn, but I’m picky with what I actually enjoy. I can’t say that I’ve ever met someone whom I’ve discussed porn with that says it dampens their sex drive in conjunction with real people; it’s more of a crutch for when you can’t get laid or you’re bored and alone and need something to do when you’re 15.