Does the US share some blame for the London Bombings?

Magellan,

I don’t believe that that was the point being made.

I had said earlier, or tried to imply -perhaps it was not clear for Gum- that Islam, mainstream, true Islam, disapproves of terrorist bombings.

Gum had read the word imams and tried to insinuate something. Again, what it was exactly, was not clear to me. I tried to clarify my post. RedFury read something into Gum’s post, and responded saying that Bush/Blair had started a war that resulted in too many pointlless deaths. In his opinion, it was comparable to the bombings by AQ. Perhaps in the sense that it did go against the principles espoused by Christianity, just as the bombings go against all the basic premises of Islam.

It is clear to me, at least, and to other people I hope, that the violence that is occuring now in Iraq is needless. I agree with you, the fighters in Iraq are attempting to rob the Iraqi populace of its free will. But the point presented by RedFury, as I read it, was that it is rather biased to condemn Muslims for operating in a manner contradictory with the basic premises of their religion but not hold the US/UK under the same scrutiny. That is a point I wholly agree with.

It’s a bloody fucking mess over there, no doubt; and I don’t say that a US withdrawal now would save lives. I do say that the US gets a huge amount of the blame for what’s happening over there, in the same way that the New York Police would get a huge amount of the blame for any riots that resulted from their having a new policy of only responding to calls in wealthy neighborhoods.

The US screwed up massively in Iraq, by not working with local nations, by offering inadequate training to troops, by allowing atrocities to occur in prisons, by ignoring the need for a massive and competent PR campaign that accompanied the military campaign. The situation in Iraq is bin Laden’s greatest dream: one of his greatest enemies was taken out by another of his greatest enemies, and a nation formerly hostile to him became an ideal recruiting and training facility.

The war is not over. Thinking the war is over is part of the attitude that embroiled the region so deeply in this mess.

That said, I should probably clarify that, although I think it can be cogently argued that the US shares responsibility for the British bombings (inasmuch as folks can be responsible for the indirect effect of their decisions), I don’t know whether I’d agree with that argument. I don’t think we’ve got the facts necessary to judge yet.

Daniel

While this ethical debate is well and good, would anyone care to address Squink’s post #157, and perhaps yank the debate onto a more concrete footing? That the Bush Administration, desperate to upstage the Democratic National Convention last summer, released the name of a suspect in British custody and thus blew up a British investigation that very well might have led to the arrests of people connected to the 7/7 attacks?

I dunno–does anyone disagree with the if–>then statement that ends his post?

I’m very leery of blog-stories, as they tend to be overblown and often nonsense. But if this one turns out to be true, then there’s 50+ Londoners who won’t get to enjoy their right to be furious at the US administration.

But if it turns out to be overblown, as I suspect it will, then we’ll need to evaluate it on the facts once they emerge.

Daniel

Read. Learn. Hopefully that’ll lead you to stop writing simplistic bullshit such as the preceding quote.

After you’re done with that, I’ll hope you’ll all head on over to the official U.S. Republican Party website for a better understanding of why rich people really are overtaxed.

I think there is a distinction to be drawn between blame and responsibility here. To be clear, let’s move away from the current topic and move to something easier to assess.

A three year old child is being supervised by an 18 year-old baby sitter who is reading her magazine rather than watching the child closely. The child knows that it is not supposed to climb up on a chair and try to get cookies out of the porcelain cookie jar, but notices that the teen is distracted, moves a chair over, climbs up, and in trying to get the top off knocks the cookie jar off the table breaking it into many, many pieces.

In this case, the child knew the rules, but really did not have enough self-control to obey them, so one might assess a portion of the blame for the broken cookie jar to the child, but very little, and all of the responsibility to the babysitter.

Had the child been 7, the age of reason, as my dad used to call it, one might give the child all the blame and at least half or more of the responsibility for the incident.

When one is assessing blame for the terrorist attacks, one must assess all of the blame on the terrorists and thier organizers and funders for the attacks and the deaths that they cause. Without thier direct efforts, the explosions would not have happened. Blame is very simple in that way. They did it. They planned it. They were the direct cause of the incident, either by action, training or funding.

Responsibility can be more comprehensive.

Certainly there are those in England responsible for the safety of those that were killed. One need not try to blame them because 1) they were not the direct cause and 2) you can bloody well figure that they are being a lot harder on themselves than any of us are.

Next, is there some sense in which Tony Blair and George Bush, through their actions created a situation in which it was more likely that the terrorists selected these targets in this country at this time. This is a more extended sense of responsibility. It may have some validity but we need to be cautious because it is akin to saying that the parent shares responsibility for the cookie incident by buying cookies, buying a cookie jar, buying a breakable cookie jar, placing it on that table, not purchasing a barrier between the chair and the table, not providing proper training for the sitter or the child in terms of how to act regarding the cookie jar, awareness of the potential hazards it presents, or the need for vigilance required in the situation. We also do not know at this, juncture, whether there was a pre-argument with the parent about whether cookies could or should be consumed. If there had been a prior cookie conflict and this had not been properly communicated to the sitter, this could have created conditions likely to have created the incident.

Now, let us introduce a paralell situation, the wife decides that the babysitter dresses immodestly and flirts with her husband too much and needs a pretext on which to fire her. (Invade Iraq) So when her husband is not looking she gives the baby half a cookie, tells the baby that that is all the cookie that she can have tonight, causes a big cookie argument, and tells the baby “Whatever you do, don’t try to look for cookies in the cookie jar, there are no cookies there!” in a tone that suggest to the baby that there very well might be cookies in there after all. For example, where is the OTHER HALF of that cookie?

In such a case the wife might bear a great deal of the responsibility of the cookie jar crash. Perhaps most or all of it. And for drawing the Teen into defending herself from the aftermath. That example might explain the invasion of Iraq, but it does not explain these bombings.

I think that the bombings happened in London because access to the U.S. is more difficult right now. Period. The FBI did a good job sweeping through the country and ejecting potential terrorists after 9/11. Probably to the point where the U.S. will face lawsuits because of it, but it has been effective so far.

The EU borders make it much easier for terrorists to cross from country to country and get into London, those this group appears to have come from England. One has to wonder though, with England’s traditional snobbishness towards us and them how English anyone with non-English ancestry feels there even after several generations. Probably much less so in the U.S. with its culture of the melting pot where the whole point of coming here is to become an American. To consider yourself an American.

That may mean that to operate as a terrorist here, one has to be more careful than in some other countries because many if not most mid-east immigrants see themselves as becoming Americans first. I have to admit my true ignorance on this subject, but that is my suspicion. Perhaps this is less true in other countries where mid-eastern immigrants are barely tolerated or hated. This is a lesson for us. There is safety in knowing who has come here to live, and knowing them well.

So how much responsibility can we put on Bush for this attack? I’d love to pin it all on him, but frankly the evidence is not there to support that much responsibility.

The history of terrorism in the Middle East is complex, old, and rooted in conflicts that have nothing to do with Bush. True his invasion of Iraq has not helped much, but England has hundreds of years of colonial activity in the Middle East that is remembered well. The U.S. is a target because of its wealth and military power, England is a target for far deeper reasons. This does not excuse the terrorists or Mr. Bush for his actions in going into Iraq under false pretenses. It only means that his responsiblity for these specific attacks is pretty darn small compared to the terrorists themselves or the historical actions of Parliment and the Royals.

For those interested in my views on George Bush’s Intelligence, follow the link “George Bush is So Stupid That…” and feel free to add your own marks of stupidity.

That’s my two cents.

Peter, The Peter Files Blog

While I don’t disagree with the overall tenor of your post seems to me you’re trying too hard vis-a-vis the locations of the strike. Fact is someone willing to go ona suicide mission is almost impossible to stop. Surely you realize fear of death is no detterrent – and that’s undoutably the most fearsome weapon in in law-enforcement.

As far as your security claims I call Bullshit. For as things stand rigt now I doubt you need much more than a double digit IQ to realize your ports are almost wide open.

I have no ideaa, but I’d almost be willing to wager there are a significantly more illegal migrats in the US than there are in the EC. And you appear to validate my assumption by the mere fact that this particular group was not related to inmigration laws – the terrorists themselves were first generation Brits.

Or it may mean nothing at all for a significant number orf the terrorists involved in 9/11 lived stateside and they onviously didn’t see themselves as American – whatever that means to you.

Not sure what you mean here. That’s true for any country with an increasingly migrant population.

Well, BushCo bears most all of the responsabilitty for invading Iraq – and the aftermath as well. No way of getting around that fact. Looks as if that tail is ready to be pinned.

1-True enough.

2-One man’s terrorist, is another one’s freedom fighter.

3-US foreign policy in the area was always misguided (one-sided) at best, by invading Iraq, Bush has only exacerbated the grievances.

Agreed on both points. But for my own clarification, what was England’s beef with Iraq and viceversa at present time?

Actions have consequences. And although I’d be the last to excuse the perpetrators, that’s exactly what you saw happening in the London attack

Not like Blair was unaware: Blair admits being warned Iraq war would increase terrorist threat

If you want to absolve BushCo by means of relativity go right ahead. But I am not buying…for said line of reasoning is akin to the blindman who refuses to see.

Much appreciated even if I gave you back some change. Welcome to The Dope, trust you’ll stick around.

UK Muslims issue bombings fatwa

Better late, than never, I guess…

The idea that the US bears any responsibility at all is one of the more bizarre examples of moral equivalence I’ve read lately. The suggestion that we can only take actions that are guaranteed to not provoke some Islamist asshole into doing what he loves best is absolutely insane.

I’d write some more but I’m too busy feeling guilty over how my participation in anti-apartheid demonstrations caused some bigots to treat blacks badly.

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

You know exactly what it means, and so does everyone else.

I’ll spell it out. Muslim extremist have been killing civilians for decades. Tony Blair finally called the Muslim leaders out in this regard. Bush is in his own fantasy world and can’t really see the forest for the trees. Blair said “reign in your terrorists, muslims, because we’re sick and tired of your murder and mayhem”. “It’s your job to clean up the shit you all are spewing”

Muslims are killing us right and left, and Blair is calling them on their silence, thank god. They’re getting the message, apparently… Hopefully they will clean up the mess thye have created.

I didn’t realise the IRA and ETA were Muslim.

Muslim leaders in Britain have spoken out against terrorists from day 1, btw.

Not sure whether the above paragraph qualifies as unintentionally humorous, pathetically ignorant, or a bit of both.

Meantime, let’s see who is really killing whom “left and right.”

A Dossier of Civilian Casualties in Iraq

How many 9/11s and 7/7s combined is that?

Speaking of “messes they’ve created,” Professor John Sloboda, FBA, one of the report’s authors, had this to say:

Cheers.

Well, not really.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting your final paragraph. What folks are doing is acknowledging that:
-Actions have consequences;
-Sometimes you’re faced with a helluva choice, in which whatever you do is going to contribute to some form of evil; and
-When faced with such a choice, the best thing you can do is make the choice that you believe will contribute to the least amount of evil.

Sometimes, whatever you do might set off the assholes. You gotta decide whether a certain choice is likely to convince the assholes that you’re manipulable, or whether it’s likely to convince some borderline folks that you’re not so bad after all. You gotta decide whether a certain choice is likely to convince the assholes that it’s too costly to mess with you, or whether it’s likely to convince the borderline folks that you’re pretty awful and deserve to die.

And God help you if you decide wrong.
Daniel

Once they get proper documentation and support for those assertions, get back to us. Once again, you are taking your statistics for granted from “iraqibodycount.org”?

Oh no, a whole bunch of people “have been reported” dead. I’d like to report that the U.S. government has also killed 1,000,000 U.S. civilians since 2004. Perhaps you’d like to set up a website and make it “fact”?

There’s no reason to minimize the issue of civilian deaths. There’s also no reason to trivialize it by using humorously radicalized sources to “report” on it.

Of course, with 34 Iraqis daily meeting violent deaths since the 2003 invasion, it would be great to know the average daily body count under the Hussein regime, just as a point of comparison. Seriously. It doesn’t do much to say, “Ever since the conquest of Italy in 1944-45, there has been an average of 10 civilian deaths a day by violent means.”

If you have specific issues with IBC’s methodology, please tell us. If you have improvements you could recommend, we’d like to hear about them. Or do you just expect your vague slight to be a suitable counter-argument?

No. You are throwing them forward as some form of evidence. I am asking for statements beyond, “Civilians reported killed,” backed by a methodology of, “comprehensive survey of online media reports and eyewitness accounts.”

Or do you merely expect to be able to throw up any website, perhaps, “www.bushmurderspeople.org,” and have it accepted as some form of valid evidence or proof?

You need to show at least some level of respectability for your source. You don’t get to throw shit up as an assertation of proof and then say it’s right unless you can show it’s wrong.

And it’s not a vague slight. It’s a direct attack on throwing up websites like that as “proof” of anything.