Dog behavior question: neutered littermates suddenly growling

In My Humble Opinion
1

Can anyone tell me what is going on with our dogs, and better yet how to get rid of this unwanted behavior? (Mods feel free to put this in GQ if you think that’s better - but I suspect dog behavior, like human behavior, isn’t always a cut-n-dried matter of factual information.)

Here is the story: We have two male Cavalier King Charles spaniels, littermates, aged 4.5 years, neutered as soon as they reached the recommended age.

Aside from a bit of aggressive behavior just as they reached neutering age, they had always gotten along very well. They have a great life: my husband takes them for a 45-minute run most mornings, and since I mostly work at home (and we have household staff here in Indonesia) they have human companionship virtually all the time. In fact, they are both asleep under my desk as I type this.

Over the past few weeks they have started growling at each other at feeding time. They are currently fed 2x/day and they each have their own bowl. The growling has escalated to the point that when they experience any significant change in activity (such as getting up in the morning and going outside for the first time), they may start growling at each other even if no food is around.

The behavior is quite unpleasant and disruptive, although fortunately they have not physically attacked each other. Nonetheless it is a problem - not only is is annoying to listen to, but it interferes with their routine and ours. For example: this morning they spent their entire time outside growling at each other. We then had to let them in so the school bus could enter our driveway, and we put them in the rec room as usual. Twenty minutes later both of them had urinated and defecated in the rec room - evidently they had been so busy growling at each other outside, they didn’t bother to relieve themselves.

The growling is not 24/7 - for example, right now the two of them seem fine. But it is getting more frequent. If we try to separate them, cajole them, or scold them, they simply growl harder.

The only thing that has changed is that we used to feed them 1x/day, but a few months ago we switched to 2x/day, in part because one dog was taking ear medication that was to be consumed with food and in part because SDMB dog lovers said that 2x/day feedings are generally better. I have no idea if the change in feeding routine is connected to the growling or not - it could be a coincidence. The growling behavior has developed gradually, so it isn’t like it clearly commenced the day after we started feeding 2x/day.

Anyway, what’s going on? How do we stop it? Help!

2

I would start feeding them separately, and in general try to keep them apart more for a while. Sounds like they will start fighting soon and you want to prevent it from escalating to that if at all possible. With enforced space they may forget they are pissed at each other, eventually.

Same-sex dog pairs often have these problems I’m afraid. I have one dog and one bitch, that is the way to go if you want peace always. They’ve lived with lots of other dogs over the years, and if they dislike or fight with another dog it’s always one of the same sex. The good news is that it will wax and wane; they can get over hating each other, especially with your help. My male dog who has been neutered since he was a pup is more of a dickhead (and chronic humper) than the three intact male dogs he’s lived with, FWIW - spaying and neutering doesn’t prevent aggressive social behavior.

3

It sounds like you have two problems - resource guarding and lack of respect for your authority since no dog should growl louder when you intervene, even if it isn’t at you. Since the growling has grown past feeding time, you are going to need to deal with it by teaching them that you humans highly disapprove of this behavior. If it were me, I’d do it by putting harnesses on both of them, and then when the growling starts I’d pick them up and put them in separate places away from everyone else. Contrast that with having them sit next to each other and praise/treat for good behavior. They should get the message fairly quickly!

4

It might be worth going back to the once a day feeding, just to try it out and see if that calms them down. They’re probably getting less at each of the two feedings than everything all at once. Maybe the two servings aren’t enough to leave them feeling full and satisfied, so they still feel hungry and it’s prompting jealousy. Two a day feedings are generally healthier, but once a day feedings can work too, if your dogs are more relaxed that way.

It’s also worth getting them a thorough vet check, to be sure that there’s nothing wrong with their hearing or eyesight (along with anything else that might be causing extra grumpiness.)

5

I agree with curlcoat that they don’t respect you as an authority figure. I’d put leashes on them, and the minute one started growling, I’d give a corrective jerk of the leash. Usually, it’s one that is the main aggressor, and you need to make sure you get him in line now before it escalates. Bottom line is that growling toward each other is not acceptable to you.

You can also use the leash to make them wait after you pour their food. They should understand that YOU decide when they can eat. They are not in competition with each other.

6

Which one appears to be the instigator? There could be an issue with either the one with sore ears (?) being defensive, or the other picking on some perceived physical weakness in the other. I agree with getting physicals on the dogs; this is a breed prone to quite a few health problems.

But medical issues aside, I agree that no matter what the reason, increased discipline is the answer. I’ve had a multiple-dog household for decades (including occasional foster dogs rotating in and out of the “pack”) and take the benevolent dictator approach to the dogs, with regular little fun training exercises built into day-to-day routines just to remind them who’s boss and encourage them to “work” or behave nicely for meals and rewards. Google “NILIF” for some ideas.

7

This is puzzling. Usually such problems develop before their personalities mature at 3 years old. Have they been to the vet for a check up lately? Often behavior problems that develop later have a physical cause.

Usually littermates sort out pack rank early and any challenges come by 3 years.

Even neutered dogs sometimes are destablized by a female in season up wind. Our Sampson has ignored the 2 we have had go through their season, but some neutered males will go ahead and mate with them. The 2 weeks could be about right. If it goes away on its own in another week or 2, that could be it.

In general, the consensus, or a least as close to a consensus as you ever have in the dog world, is that smaller dogs need 2 meals a day. The trend may be toward it for larger ones too.

How is their body condition, How To Tell if Your Dog is at a Healthy Weight – Long Live Your Dog Over weight is almost the norm, but some dogs need more food than others.

8

Thanks for the suggestions everyone (and especially the website links - very interesting).

The dogs have fairly regular interactions with the vet, as we take them there for grooming, boarding, and ear-cleaning as well as for any health concerns that arise (the latest crisis was TICKS! - ugh - but they now have healthy, tick-free skin). However, we have noticed that one dog (the aggressor in the growling, and the one who is prone to ear problems) has recently become a little gimpy in his hindquarters (not continuously - just for a few minutes here and there), so we were planning to have that checked out. I’ll take them both for a check-up.

The dogs are normal weight - one (the aggressor) is just a bit on the stocky side, but within range for the breed, as far as I can tell. (Most images on line of CKC spaniels are as stocky as he is.) The other dog has a more slender build. It’s a little hard to compare them to the “longliveyourdog” pictures as they have such long silky hair that I can’ really see the “waist.” But I think their weight is fine - the vet weighs them periodically and has not mentioned any concerns.

Anyway, in light of the comments, I do wonder if the aggressive dog is feeling under the weather due to the start of hip problems - and it is a constant battle with his ears, although that seems to be mostly under control.

9

Be sure to have your vet test at least this dog for tick borne diseases as well - if he has lyme or something like that, it could show up as lameness and grumpiness!

10

I would avoid any “corrective” techniques – the ultimate goal is for the dogs to want to follow your leadership, not just to flinch when you hold the leash.

I agree that they do not (currently) respect your leadership, which (among other things) will cause them psychological stress – dogs like to believe a good leader has everything under control, and they often worry when they themselves feel they might have to take over pack leadership.

First thing to do is to separate them during any times they are alone without human supervision. No sense in coming home to the aftermath of a fight.

Next, as has been suggested, separate feedings (out of each other’s sight).

As far as winning their respect as pack leader, I’m going to recommend you stay positive and start with the non-violent NILIF program.

Nothing in Life is Free <–there are many variations of this on the web, feel free to google around.

The secret to NILIF is that, although you are “regaining control” of your pack, the dogs also gain a certain amount of control – they learn that they can do specific behaviors to win approval and “secure their position in the pack.” Instead of being in doubt as to whether they are doing the right thing at any given time, they know they are doing the right thing and have tangible rewards to show for it.

11

This hasn’t been an issue with our current dogs and I don’t recommend it if your dogs are at all aggressive with you, but in the past when we’ve had a dog growl at feeding time, we’d take his food and make him sit. Then, when he sat, he got his food back. Growl again, and the food disappeared again. Repeat as necessary. It worked pretty well.

12

I hesitate to recommend NILIF to the average pet owner because of how much time and effort is required to make it work.

13

I recommended it too…I think if you look at it as part of the overall way to interact with dogs rather than a cure for all problems (which it’s not), it’s a good start to changing the way one sets boundaries in a day-to-day basis.

14

Is it an all-or-nothing thing, though? If someone sort of half-asses their way and does some of the NILIF stuff some of the time, would that be worse than not doing any of it at all?

15

Our cats are 12 and 15, and are starting to have health problems. It is fascinating to see how the power balance shifts in the house as one is under the weather, then the other one - they KNOW, no doubt about it. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if his health problems are manifesting in overly aggressive behaviour (and the other one is off kilter, too, because his littermate isn’t his usual self).

16

I don’t see how anything in the dynamic could be made worse. Except if there’s not adequate follow-through both owner + dogs could get frustrated and cranky!

“Nothing In Life Is Free” isn’t corrective or onerous…really it just means that the owner require the dog to behave nicely, or perform some basic thing - sit, stay, whatever they are capable of - as “work” (after all, most dogs were purpose-bred to work and most get a lot of satisfaction from it if trained right and fairly) in order to get food, treats, affection, attention, play, etc. There’s nothing fancy about it…first time I ever read about this concept I figured so what, that’s how I’ve acted with my dogs my whole life (I grew up with serious working sheep dogs) so it seemed normal.

But many dog owners - particularly people who own small/cute/easy dogs, don’t see any utility in training them at all so the concept is sort of an awakening. I think most people have met little dogs that act in ways that would be scary and serious in a larger dog, but in a smaller dog is just seen as cute or “protective” or merely “yappy.” So I totally commend CairoCarol for realising this is a problem!

Exactly and also why the suggestions to make sure the dogs are OK medically first is spot on.

In 2009, I had two Rottweilers and my boy got bone cancer. I had a fairly radical amputation done, so while he adjusted amazingly considering he lost his entire left front leg, including the shoulder blade, overnight, he was sore and compromised physically. My female - who had never, ever, not ever once, attempted to question his authority in the almost nine years they lived together, became an absolute stressy, snappy bitch towards him while he was feeling down. It was a short-lived attempt because a: I didn’t tolerate it and b: nor did he as soon as he was feeling stronger. But dogs have a strict sense of rank and she briefly thought she had a chance at moving up in rank and acted accordingly. That is quite normal; once she got smacked back down so to speak, all was well again.

17

I don’t see the average pet owner having time for it or really wanting to follow thru. They got the dog, particularly a small dog, for a companion to snuggle and spoil so I don’t think they’d want to delay snuggle/dinner/play/go for a walk time every single time by having the dog respond to a command. Plus the average pet owners has a lot of life to deal with outside any pet issues.

I don’t know for sure since the only time I’ve done it with a client dog is when they are in house, but I’d guess that it would create a dog that would either be confused or would start testing boundaries. Or both.

18

True, but if the owner’s only interaction, snuggling and cuddling, leads to behaviour problems stemming from lack of respect, then if the owner wants to change that, he or she has to put in time doing something to change it.
Or, do nothing.
Or trade in the dog for a more tractable one.
But when this sort of question is asked on a message board or IRL, usually it’s because the owner wants to change the dog’s behaviour; which in turn means the owner has to do something. As you suggested in your first post to the OP.

I agree with the above; it’s good advice. But doing that also takes time and following through. Not to mention, if the dogs don’t respect the owner, picking up a tense, growling dog and putting it away is likely to get the person picking up the dog bitten. Whether it’s a CKC or a Rottweiler.

And, if done inconsistently, would also result in a dog being confused and testing boundaries. The NILIF thing can be done concurrently. All training has to be done fairly and consistently, and it’s fairly normal for any dog to get confused, test boundaries or exhibit extinction burst when there’s a sudden change in the dynamic.

Yep, which is why I said,

19

chiroptera has done a good job representing NILIF as I understand it, but it’s worth noting that the original link I posted says:

I can imagine someone disagreeing with the program’s intent, technique, or effectiveness; but “time and effort” shouldn’t be the issue. IMHO anyone who can’t put THAT little effort into their relationship with their dog shouldn’t have a live animal companion. Get a teddy bear or something.

20

I guess I do NILIF although I never realized it before. It takes 20 seconds max to have my cats and dogs respond to a simple command before they get to do the things they love, like eat, go outside, or play laser-chase. It seems to work well for me because they are well-behaved… at least when I am there. I know the cats get bitten and counters are climbed on when I am not home, but few pets are perfect. :wink: