Don't touch my baby!

The BBQ Pit
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OK–I give up. It doesn’t take experiencing something to know exactly what it’s like. After all, if you can imagine it, you pretty much know exactly how it feels. That’s why I know exactly what it’s like to win the lottery, even though it’s never happened to me–I’ve imagined it so many times. All you virgins out there–feel free to dispense sexual advice. I’m quite sure you’ve all imagined it enough times to know all about sex.

Damn it all–I have practically apologized out the ass for saying that it takes going through something to know what it’s like. I’ve been as nice as I could possibly be. “You don’t know what it’s like” was not the damned argument as a whole. I was talking to someone who was berating a mom for overreacting about something he/she apparently knows nothing about. Hell’s bells. I can’t understand this crap at all. I have freely admitted that there are things I know nothing about because I’ve never been through them, but you’d think that I had peed on your shoes, the way you react to the suggestion that YOU might not know everything about parenting and the way it feels (notice, I’m not mentioning any names here). I never insulted anyone–though insults were definitely read into what I said. I have tried to make sure again and again that what I said was NOT intended to slander anyone, but now I’m starting to think that the original point I was trying to make is being deliberately missed. I’m sick of trying to be diplomatic in defense of my remarks.
WARNING: This next part may be unduly painful to those who want children but are unable to have them. I would not wish to hurt anyone in this manner.

Here’s my challenge to the rest of you–tell me EXACTLY how it feels to go through labor, if you’ve never even been pregnant. Go on–tell me. Explain how the pain can be managed if you are only determined enough and that there’s no reason for a woman to need drugs. Surely, if you plan to get pregnant or have seen movies that contain scenes of childbirth, you have imagined it enough to tell us how we SHOULD be handling it.

OK, so now I’ve gotten a tad sarcastic and cutting, but I’m tired of posting little smilies to let you know that I’m trying to be nice and polite and nonoffensive. All THAT has gotten me is an earful of how arrogant I am to even imply that it takes going through an experience to truly know what it is. Even the most non-confrontational person will get their fill of that. And I have certainly gotten a bellyful of it and I’m steamed. So NOW you can really dig your heels in and sink your teeth into me.

Sheesh.

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Another thing before this gets me flamed to hell and gone. The challenge I issued about labor is sure to get responses of “How would YOU know–your earlier posts claim that you’ve only had C-sections!”

This is true–but I went through HOURS of labor (38 hours the first time and 14 hours the next) before they were done. So I do know about labor. I am choosing this time to skip that part and go right to the operating room, because labor is hard and I do not wish to go through it again only to have surgery to recover from. That is what I call “getting the shit end of BOTH sticks”–meaning that both forms of childbirth have a really hard side. Labor is the hardest part of natural delivery and recovery is the hardest part of a Caesarean (this has been corroborated by women I know who have delivered both ways). I was getting the hardest part of both forms–I believe I’ll pass this time!

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You say you choose to be childless, and then you tell us you tried for a baby and lost it. You criticise other members of this board for being parents, declare you’d never want to be a parent, and then tell us you were almost a parent once, but circumstances beyond your control took the baby from you. There’s a lot of inconsistancy here… are you telling us the whole truth? I’m terrib;y sorry that you lost your baby - something I wouldn’t wish on anyone - but I find your attitude of bragging about being infertile hard to comprehend. You say you’re happy to be “ChildFREE” - how did you feel about your baby before you lost it? Was it wanted and mourned, or was it an accident that you were gleeful to be free of? If your baby had lived, would you be in here complaining that you wanted to be ChildFREE?


I never once said I TRIED to have a baby ... I never ever WANTED a baby ... I got pregnant and at the time allowed myself to be guilted away from the abortion option.
I am not SAD in the least that I lost the baby. I did nothing to cause it. I had my tubes snipped and cauterized and can not / will not have another OOPS. If the snips fail my husband and I have discussed this AT LENGTH and it is off to the abortion clinic I go ... no family pressure no questions asked. I did not MOURN anything you implied that.
If the pregnancy had completed itself it is quite possible that the child would have been put up for adoption as I was not handling the very idea of having a child at all.

A pregnancy is not a child I had a failed pregnancy not a child .. so I am still and always will be childFREE.
And while I can appreciate the friendships you have made on this board my entire point was you can not expect new people to jump into a conversation on a message board, because it is a MESSAGE BOARD not a COFFEE SHOP.

Now, you can think what you will of me ... but that is only your opinion and to me I am happy in who I am. I am just sad for you that even in your PIT you can't show a bit of tolerance to anyone who doesn't come in here and kiss your collective ass.

Also if you have something to say to me you can email me directly I will not be coming back on this thread.
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Promise?

Can someone fill me in very briefly on the CF movement (I’ve lived out of the US for a long time)? Is it really a movement? Do they like have a website and manifesto and everything? Are there eloquent members with a sense of humor who don’t feel a need to get in your face about it? This something restricted to the US or just El Lay? This is really a new one on me, so despite the obvious sarcasm I’m actually curious now. I know plenty of people who don’t want kids, but never had one glowing with the ferver of a Marxist with a trust fund enlightening the proletariat.

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I can’t understand why Mayflower and others are having such a hard time here. It seems to me that there are five levels of understanding the parent-child connection:

1 - You are actually a parent (biological, adoptive, or step-parent). You know what being a parent is like. The rest of us - we don’t know what it’s like.
2 - You aren’t a parent but you’ve been a primary caretaker (foster parents, certain kinds of social workers, older siblings who took over parental duties, etc.) for a child. You’ve experienced the protective instinct, which is naturally inspired by the smallness, helplessness and trust of a young child. So you have a good idea of what it might be like to be a parent.
3 - You like children and have been around them a lot (maybe you’re a teacher, or you have younger siblings or nieces or nephews, or you babysit). You feel that you can guess what it might be like to be a parent.
4 - You don’t like children or haven’t been around them much, but you have a good imagination and/or are a reasonably intelligent person. You can understand the views of parents, including the instinctive reactions they might have regarding their children.
5 - You don’t like children and can’t understand why anyone would want to have children. You can’t or won’t use your imagination to try to understand how a parent feels.

The love of an adult for a child is not like the love between two adults, nor is it like the love of a child for an adult. It isn’t impossible for non-parents to understand this, even if they don’t know exactly how it feels to have a child. In fact, they may even have experienced this kind of love in other contexts (listed above). Or they may never have experienced it, but can still imagine or understand it.

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The positioning just after your post was pure coincidence, not a response to your post.

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Unfortunately, I can’t, because the last thing I read about it was in a New York Time Magazine article which was long and covered all the aspects. I am wholly unable to remember all the salient points besides which I’ve never been able to do anything “briefly” in my life.

But yes, there is a movement that has become a bit politicized. I am not sure where the line between “people who don’t want kids” and “people who are in the childfree movement” is drawn, but there is a different. The childfree movement wants freedom from children (including, often other peoples’) and has called attention to things like the fact that parents get “benefits” (in the form of leave, for example) that folks without kids don’t get. They seek out housing where kids aren’t allowed (though doesn’t this violate houing laws?) and come up with offensive names to reference kids. They have some very thought-provoking points to make about the costs of children to society, but of course that assumes a worldview that children (and the proper raising of them) are not any sort of social effort or responsibility. I don’t agree with their premises, but as an economist I think they raise some very interesting points of discussion.

However, in the end, I am uncomfortable with the movement because I think its legitimized bigotry. You don’t see people bragging about how there are no black people in their family, or how psyched they are that their parents are dead so they don’t have any smelly old people to deal with. I mean, there might be people who brag about those things, but they’d be scorned because you just don’t advertise your hatred for a specific class of people. Not in polite society. For some reason it’s “okay” to crow about one’s dislike of kids though.

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Pennylane–my problem is just this. I directed comments toward a poster who had almost viciously berated the OP and those who supported her position. The gist of those sarcastic remarks was that babies are at risk all the time and we can’t protect them from everything, so get over it already. MY response was that this poster apparently had no idea what it was like to sit up all night afraid that your baby would choke to death in the night because of congestion or vomiting and that you might fail to awaken and help your child. And I did say SHAME on him/her for having such a callous attitude toward those of us who did understand this fear, because we had experienced it. NEVER ONCE did I say that childless people could not be empathetic or compassionate, or understand academically why we feel the way we do. But dammit, I don’t see why it’s so hard to get the point across that it takes going through something–ANYTHING–in life to know how that feels for REAL. Whether it be marriage, widowhood, the loss of a beloved pet, skydiving, breaking a bone, etc. If you haven’t gone through any of that, you can sympathize, you can empathize, you can imagine and believe in their pain, you can even hurt and grieve with them, but you cannot have the ACTUAL knowledge of what the other person is feeling unless you’ve been there. My grandmother died some years back and my Mom had a terrible time–I hurt so much with her and for her, but MY mother has not died–so while I knew she was suffering, and grieved with her, still I could not know the exact feeling that losing a parent brings. I think it’d be terribly arrogant of me to have said to her, “Mom I know just how you feel.” Why?? Because I didn’t know! I knew ACADEMICALLY–I could even IMAGINE it–but I didn’t and don’t actually KNOW how it is to lose a parent.

I have just found it frustrating that I can’t seem to make this point–and have instead, been accused of attacking childless people as unable to know what love is. That was never what I said and I just got fed up last night trying to explain it for the UMPTEENTH time. So for the record–CHILDLESS PEOPLE ARE PERFECTLY CAPABLE OF FEELING LOVE. I NEVER SAID THAT THEY COULDN’T. MY ONLY POINT WAS THAT THIS OTHER POSTER WAS TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT THEY OBVIOUSLY DID NOT COMPREHEND AND BEING CONTEMPTUOUS IN THE PROCESS. I still maintain that you must actually go through an experience to fully understand it, no matter what that experience is–it does not apply only to having children.

BTW, pennylane–my irritation is in NO WAY directed at you–you asked a question and I am just trying to answer it. I know that your question was not necessarily directed to me, but I wanted to say what I thought the problem was. I simply find the whole thing tiresome–it’s as if I were trying to explain algebra to my 21 month old son and getting nowhere. Responses to my posts never acknowledge the fact that I have included myself in not knowing how everthing feels–they repeatedly ignore how I’ve stated over and over that I intended no slander toward childless people, and that I’ve said again and again that I believed in their ability to feel love. Always, it’s this attitude of “How can you say that I can’t understand love just because I don’t have kids,” when that’s not what I said at all. And no matter how many times I’ve tried to make that clear, it’s never once been acknowledged. That’s why I said in one of my last posts that I was starting to feel as if my point was being deliberately missed.

Not that I expect this post will change any of that. :frowning:

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Mayflower, I was trying to defend you in my post. I meant that I didn’t understand why people were giving you and others who said the same thing such a hard time. I don’t think there is anything offensive or even debatable in what you’ve said.

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Thanks, pennylane. As I said, none of my irritation was directed at you. I just wasn’t entirely sure whether you were asking why people couldn’t get my point, or if you were wondering why my last post was expressing so much exasperation. So I wanted to let you know why I was so irate–but NOT with anything you said. You were polite and kind. I appreciate the support! :slight_smile:

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Childless by Choice

Zero Population Growth

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AMEN TO THAT, Pennylane

This is absolutely ridiculous! First of all, I want to say that I have two beautiful children, both girls, ages 4½ years and 21 months. I love them with all my heart and would give my own life for them. I don’t want strangers to assume that they have the same rights as friends and family to even TALK to my kids, much less touch them. If you don’t like that, too bad. They’re MINE, not yours! That goes for other mothers, women without kids (whether by choice or by circumstance), strange men, old people, or even other kids. If someone were admiring that stylish purse of mine, do you think I’d let them go up and rummage through it? Not a chance. State your opinions all you want. That right is protected under the First Ammendment to the Constitution. Laying your hands on my child–and I don’t care if you scrubbed first with surgical antiseptic–is not. Freely dispense your opinions while keeping your paws off my kid!

Secondly, Mayflower is absolutely right. You can’t understand what anyone is feeling unless you’ve walked a mile in her shoes. Anyone that can’t understand her point is just being obtuse IMHO. What kind of response would I get from a conversation like this one:
WARNING: THIS IS NOT AN ACTUAL CONVERSATION OR REAL RESPONSE TO ANYTHING ACTUALLY SAID ON THIS BOARD.

OP: I was in the mall the other day and this woman brought her children into the bathroom. I told her what beautiful kids she had and she thanked me. “Do you have any kids?” she asked, and I just started to cry. When she asked why I was crying, I told her that I’d been trying for years to get pregnant, but I found out just yesterday that I will never be able to have children." To which she replied, "Well, it’s just God’s will. Not all of us are meant to have kids. " So I told her to shove it up her ass!

Me: Well I’m sorry you can’t have any kids, but you shouldn’t be mad at the woman for what she said. She didn’t mean you any harm. Sure, she shouldn’t have said that, but cut her some slack. I think you’re overreacting just a little bit.

OP: Obviously you have never been childless and suffered as I have. I’ve lost the dream of motherhood that I’ve had in my heart since I was a little child playing with my baby dolls. I always wanted to be like my mom and now I never will be.

Me: How dare you say I don’t know what pain is or that I’ve never lost a dream?! Are you saying that because I’ve never been through EXACTLY what you’re going through, I can’t possibly understand what you mean? How arrogant you are!

END OF PRETEND CONVERSATION

Wouldn’t that seem a little crass of me? To act all high and mighty about something I know nothing about? But that’s exactly what a couple of posters on here have done, just because it was the other way around and Mayflower said that a non-mother–especially one who is childless by choice–has no right to tell a mother how protective she should or shouldn’t be toward her children!

Next, ImChildFree has freely admitted that she is what I refer to as a child-hater. She doesn’t like, love, or want kids, and in fact, REJOICED over the death of one. And flame me all you want but yes, when you’re pregnant, you’re carrying a child. She stated very plainly that if she were to accidentally become pregnant again, she would dispose of it like so much refuse. So why should I listen to ANYTHING she has to say in regard to the safety of my children?! I wouldn’t listen to a child abuser on the subject either! And why should I care whether she feels insulted or not? Guess what–I don’t feel the slightest sympathy for her! She came on here to DELIBERATELY piss people off–even made a bet with her husband that she could do it–then has the gall to act offended that she got the result she wanted?! If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime I always say.
Finally I have something to say to the pet lovers out there who basically creamed Mayflower and Bubblegirl for their comments. Let your pet dog have puppies and then see what happens when a stranger comes and scoops one out of the basket. She’d bite that person’s hand off just as soon as look at them. That’s her natural response to what she perceives as a very real danger and no one faults her for that, even if the stranger meant no harm. That’s the same way we mothers feel toward our children, but everyone tells us we’re “overreacting.” Bubblegirl loves her children and is the one responsible for their wellbeing and upbringing, noone else (besides her husband of course). To be perfectly honest, it’s no one else’s business why a mother doesn’t want someone touching her babies. And I don’t give a tinker’s damn if that offends you or not.

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And Negative Population Growth

But bear in mind that most people who drool about being childFREE are not particularly conversant with the aims and policies of these organizations.

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There are dozens of cites I could give, but very few I would consider “brief”. Here is a starter set

A group of links for the movement.

A social group, website with chapters all over the Americas. Focuses on bringing people who have made this choice together.
http://www.nokidding.net/

One of the more comprehensive and professional-looking sites I’ve found. Childless by Choice has many essays and articles about the lifestyle choice. Unfortunately they are almost exclusively things you can order :frowning: Their links section is impressive and they do have some online content.
http://now2000.com/cbc/

An Australian site, again pushing merchandise. But some online essays as well. Mostly stories from people who have made the choice themselves.
http://www.childfree.com.au/

The main source of information seems to be the book “The Baby Boon: How Family-Friendly America Cheats the Childless” by Elinor Burkett

A group of links against the movement. Both of these upon a cursory reading appear to have researched the movement, and may be better choices for info about it than the other links I was able to find due to lack of free, online content in the above.

An article from Salon. An op-ed piece where the “movement” is examined. Part of their “Moms who think” section.
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/07/31/anti_child/

Another op-ed piece from a site called hipMama. Inspired by the Salon piece, this writer did her own study of the movement.
http://www.hipmama.com/features/childfree.html

Sorry for the hijack Bubble Girl
Enjoy,

Steven

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Hey, there must be some ironic/poetic justice here, payback for me being a bitch about this topic. I just got to work this morning to find that a pregnant co-worker had her baby last night. This means I had to take over a project (due at noon) and wrap up all the loose ends she was working on.

Which meant, of course, that my thoughts ran to “Goddamn breeders!” Tee hee hee.

I feel guilty because the project that got dumped on a coworker when I popped my kid was even worse.

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So, Una, your 6[sup]th[/sup] level elfen cleric draws her +12 UberMace of Troll-Slaying[sup]tm[/sup]. The Troll has a thac0 of 5 but with the bonus from the +12 UberMace of Troll-Slaying[sup]tm[/sup] looks like you’ve whacked it good! It’s still standing and on it’s turn to act, it runs off down the corridor to the north-east.

The rest of you, you finally catch up to Una who’s entered the room that the troll ran into.

It’s a large room 80x80, in an irregular square.There’s an eerie blue-green light coming from fungi growing along the cave walls, a musty but not unpleasant odor, and from the east wall, there’s a steady drip-drip-drip of water.

Opal your ring of Spider-Sense is tingling just a tiny bit…something’s not quite right, but it’s not enough to set the thing off automatically.

Everyone, show me where you were standing in relation to the corridor, tell me what you were doing and I need a you to make a “spot obvious” roll vs IQ.

Dungeon Master Fenris (DON’T TELL JACK CHICK!) :eek:

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To cazzle, yep just spent a lot of time hanging around just reading over posts. When I caught this one, and saw people being condemned and told they can’t say anything because they don’t have children themselves, definitely caught my attention. I feel much the same way as the “offending opinions” and I have 2 kids, so plenty of experience with people coming up to adore a new baby.

And to abuse angel- give me a break. When I said it was public land, I’m sorry that was misunderstood to even think of meaning the child, merely that this whole episode occured in a public place, unless the mother owns that mall restroom. If she was worried so much about germs, keep the baby at home. Few things that could be transmitted between people actually need physical contact- most are airborne contagions, especially during winter months.

Yes, I think she made too much of deal over this, especially the bravado of posting on the internet about how she yelled at a stranger. And people applauded and supported her rude behavior! Personally, when I have taken a small baby into a restroom for a change, I don’t let the stroller get even a foot away from me, even if I had another adult with me.

Setsail

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A bit contradictory don’t you think? You are the better mother, or whatever, because you don’t let the stroller get “even a foot away” from you. But Bubblegirl is making too much of someone actually touching her baby without permission?! If it isn’t that big of a deal, why do you keep such a close watch? [sub]Yes, I know of the risks of people stealing kids, but why is one considered vigilant while the other is considered overprotective?[/sub]

Bubblegirl, please stand while I applaud and fully support you.

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Mayflower, I now agree with you 100%. You have clarified your position (maybe I was dense before :p) and I have no problem with your statement or argument. FTR, my initial annoyance regarding this whole point was that some people (I did not get the feeling that you were :)) seemed to be extrapolating from this argument, the view that since the childless couldn’t understand, they had no informed views or ability to comment intelligently on any situation involving children. This is what annoyed me. I agree that while I can imagine and empathise, I can never really know how it feels until I’ve done it, however this does not mean I am unable to comment, based on what I think it would feel like. Then if what my arguments are based on is incorrect, you *can * flame me to shreads for my incorrect assumptions. :slight_smile:

Basically I just took up a lot of room saying that I agree with you, but trying to show you why I commented. I hope we can agree on this :slight_smile: If not, at least we can agree that childFREE is a complete and utter moron :stuck_out_tongue:

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Mayflower wrote :

"A bit contradictory don’t you think? You are the better mother, or whatever, because you don’t let the stroller get “even a foot away” from you. But Bubblegirl is making too much of someone actually touching her baby without permission?! If it isn’t that big of a deal, why do you keep such a close watch? [sub]Yes, I know of the risks of people stealing kids, but why is one considered vigilant while the other is considered overprotective?[/sub]

Bubblegirl, please stand while I applaud and fully support you. **
[/QUOTE]
"

I did not say I was a better mother because I keep the stroller close by, I was pointing out that if she doesn’t want unknown people near her child, don’t leave it so far away. Oh, like an 11 year old would be so hard to overtake if the other lady had wanted to steal the child?

What I was mainly objecting to was the manner in which she reprimanded the stranger, hanging around in the bathroom to scream at the woman.

And maybe keeping the stroller near me could be considered vigilance on my part, but that’s part of my nature. Do we then infer that it’s Bubblegirl’s nature to walk away from her child in public then yell at someone else for her own actions?