Dopers, help requested Re: salary 'haggling'

In My Humble Opinion
1

I was informed by a financial advisor that I might be able to haggle my salary up to “industry standards.” I come here to ask you: what are some resources I can use to my advantage?

Has anyone here negotiated a raise that wasn’t part of a typical review (wage increases here, for example, are yearly)?

Secondly, I work for a very small company (less than 15 employees!). How should I account for this in my plight?

I have considered asking for a higher salary before, mostly due to the cost of living here in the Boston metro area, but it seems (to me) that when I was researching salaries in the area prior to accepting the position that salaries weren’t noticibly higher to account for the cost of living. Can I incorporate this at all, then? Has anyone else noticed such a thing?

Links or specific books to reference are what is called for here.

I don’t have an online version of a resume, but if anyone wants more specific info on my to help guide me I don’t mind offering.

Again, I’ll do the research… but where the hell do I go in the first place? And, what sort of references should I bring to a requested meeting?

Thank you!

2

Oh, where was this thread a week ago, when I received my annual slap-in-the-face from my company?

Bitter? No, not at all. Filled with rage hotter than liquid fuck? You betcha.

3

You might want to try http://www.salary.com – it’s a decent benchmark site for salaries and such. Not the best, not the worst.

Yup, I just recently (successfully – go me! :smiley: ) negotiated a salary raise for myself, and it wasn’t part of any review. It’s basically because I work for a small company too (used to be about 35 when I started 6 months ago, now we’re around 25 or so) and in my time here, I’ve basically <tooting own horn> made myself irreplaceable. </tooting own horn> There’s been a lot of discord in the company, and I didn’t feel like I was being fairly compensated, citing links from salary.com, and I was able to get a raise.

Hey, you’re from around Boston too? Small world, huh?

I don’t need a full C.V., but a basic rundown of what you do could help…
Hope this helps…

4

Wow, salary.com is pretty neat. Simple enough url too :wink: (psst-- must be worth a bundle!)

Apparently they place me in the 37-45K range— wow.

All I can say. Wow. I am underpaid according to this!

Now, how should I go about managing this? Should I post a resume and look for job offers, then use that for leverage, or just lay out the cold hard facts?

This, I must say, is terribly exciting.

Informal resume

Job Description: Service and manufacture of already-designed electrochemical instrumentation. electronic and computer controlled equipment which studies physico-chemical properties of molecules (specifically, pharmaceutical drug compounds). Aid in the design of such instruments (but on a somewhat basic level; I don’t design pH circuitry, for example, but I did design a controller board for a magnetic stirrer-- well, designed the circuit, someone else designed the actualy PCB). Service involves travelling to customer sites around the US and Canada or having instruments sent here (if possible).

Ultimate core requirements: customer interaction, knowledge of basic circuit design and operation, mechanical and electrical interaction. Some understanding of basic chemistry required (of course, I got that in high school) and a desire to learn more about it (learning is not a problem for me).

Related education: associates in electronic engineering, GPA of 3.79 (stupid homework made me miss what would have been a 4.0-- wait, stupid me for not doing the stupid homework ;))

Past related experience: McDonald’s manager for 5 years, duties included scheduling all employees, inventory ordering, and typical cash handling duties. Of course customer service was a part of it. My theory always was, if you could be a nice manager at McDonald’s with the crap you put up with there, being in any other field with customer interaction is a breeze. It really is. I really toot my horn about McDonald’s, but it is a job that (in order to be successful at it) requires juggling high school kids, adults who are working this as a second job, and irate customers who cannot stand to wait in line mor than about 2.5 minutes before they get their order taken.

I seriously think it is one of the best jobs a person can have if they ever, ever intend to work witht the public and be responsible.

I also had just over a year as an installer. I installed phone systems (I do mean systems, anywhere from 10-100 phones on private companies’ systems, we just cooperated with the local phone company. They gave us the lines, we used them), audio systems (everything from paging systems, full-scale high school PA systems, to a theater’s sound system at a state college). Also installed (huff, huff) other communications and security equipment ranging from cameras, buzzers, to nursing home distress call systems. The above also included servicing those systems and individual devices. The service usually ran to cabling problems, but I have taken components apart to troubleshoot and successfully repair (when possible).

Of course, school involved labwork along the lines of circuit design and interaction with mechanical devices (through discrete components and microprocessors).

So, according to salary.com I should be somewhere in the Electronics tech I, II, or III all with a average salary (read, 25-75% of employees have at least this salary is what i think it meant) of about 37K.

I am making 31.8K :frowning:

At the time I was under the impression that a 30K salary was OK for my experience/training level. I seem to disagree, and salary.com (at least) as well as my financial advisor (yay Amex!) are with me.

Are there any good government sources as well? Essentially I would like to sit down with them and make a case that cannot be defeated. I expect my work-outs in GD to help, but this is definitely a case for some serious citations.

Apart from citing industry averages, anything else that I could tactfully use to my advantage? I plan to throoughly document my actions starting on October 1st.

5

In the past, I’ve said something like

Dear manager,

*I routinely work excess hours but, being paid a salary rather than a wage, I don’t get overtime so a bit extra would be nice;

*At your direction, I’m doing work that falls outside my original job description and doing it well;

*I’m doing the work of two people (at different times that’s actually been 3 people, which explains why I spend so much time being the Cranky Bitch from Heck);

*I’ve brought money into the company by (example);

*I’ve prevented the company from losing money by (example);

*Industry standard is $xx, you’re paying me $yy, and I’m thinking of changing jobs.

This last one works best - in my experience - if there’s been recent rapid staff turnover and you’re now the only one in the department with much experience and knowledge of how things really work. If you’re indispensible, in other words.

I’ve always stayed away from the “The cost of living’s gone up, it’s expensive here, I need more money” lines. None of my bosses have ever wanted to hear it; it made no difference to them whatsoever. What did count was my contribution and value to the company.

6

I just learned this tip and hopefully will use it next week for this killer regional sales job in Asia working for a giant multinational company that approximates the anti-christ.

Anyhoo, when they make the dollar offer, slowly repeat the number back (make sure you repeat this back so they know you heard correctly). Then go silent. A very pregnant silence. Have a pensive look on your face. Silently count to 30. Odds are high that the original offer was the minimum, and that before the 30 seconds are up, they will make a higher counter offer.

You have absolutely nothing to lose with this tactic and may get a higher offer.

As alluded to by tavalla, make sure you set the stage by getting your boss to agree that you have a) made the company more than you cost b) saved the company from losing a lot of money and c) show where the value is. Do NOT whine about how you need more money for a liver transplant or anything as that usually translates into a resounding NO.

Another way to look at it is to make a business case. "I brought in 3 new accounts, saved the big Johnson account, trained 3 staff, and run the department after the last manager quit and left you in the lurch. Do I give you good return on the $30k you pay me? Based on the above and industry standards (here let me show you this print out so you know), the range for what I do is $35-40k. Now, make a business decision.

7

[li] Present samples of your work. Especially if they demonstrate huge cost savings or profits for your company.[/li]
[li] Demonstrate abilities or talents that justify increased compensation.[/li]
[li] Show new skills or abilities acquired since your original hiring.[/li]
[li] Introduce references from either your boss, cow-orkers or clients testifying to your quality of effort.[/li]
[li] Rehearse your own lines in front of friends or a mirror repeatedly until they are smooth as glass.[/li]
[li] Do lots of web searches for information that backs up your perceptions. See if you can produce a list of compensation levels in your area and other comparable locations for your sort of work.[/li]
[li] Dress formally for the occasion, at least a coat and tie if not the old three piece. Get a haircut too.[/li]
[li] Have an updated copy of your resume reflecting all of the accomplishments you will refer to in the negotiations. Try to have all of the documents attractively packaged as for a presentation with a copy for each person that will be reviewing you.[/li]
Most of all, remain calm, do not get flustered and maintain an air of “I can get more pay just by walking next door.”

8

PS: Best wishes to you in this effort. My favorite way is to demonstrate how I work for almost free once the cost savings of my work are factored against my own pay.

9

That’s not “another” way to look at it, it’s the only way to look at it. It’s the only way any rationale business person is going to look at on the other side of the desk. If you can’t explain in concrete, preferably quantifiable, terms exactly why the company you work for is more successful than it would be without you, or with someone else in your position, then you have no business asking for a raise. Comparative salary information is quite lovely, and it has its use in establishing that you’re more profitable than any arbitrary replacement they could bring in off the street. But there may be a whole host of reasons why the work you do is worth either more or less than the average. You don’t want to rely too heavily on the numbers from salary.com or any other source. Not only are they the result of lumping together wildly dissimilar sets of responsibilities under the same job title, but they have only a tangential connection to the value your company can expect to derive from your work.

You accepted the job at some point in the past. You made a decision that the compensation you were offered at that time was an acceptable (to you) exchange for the work you were expected to do. Presumably, those terms are still acceptable to your employer, since you’re still employed. If they’re no longer acceptable to you, and you expect your employer to agree to a change in those terms, you need to be able to explain what’s different. It may be that you have new skills, additional responsibilities, enough experience to be significantly more productive, or some other quantifiable basis for the change. It may also be that you simply want more money for the work you’re doing and believe you can readily get it elsewhere, while your employer cannot readily replace you for the amount you’re seeking or less. That’s a legitimate position, but one that tends to be less effective in motivating employers, since it establishes you as strictly a hired gun who’ll always be ready to jump ship for more money

If you succeed in making your request entirely about the work you do and the value that work has for the company, you at least will have the confidence that comes with knowing that you’re right (whether they agree with you or not) – provided that you’ve been objective and realistic in your assessment. You also establish yourself in the mind of your employer as someone who thinks like a business person and is concerned about the success of the company, not someone who thinks they’re entitled to more money simply because they’ve put in their time, whether the company succeeds or not.

That doesn’t mean that you’ll necessarily get what you ask for. There may be any number of reasons why your employer might legitimately say no without refuting your argument. But if they’re smart and they have to say no right now, they’ll explain to you why, whether they expect the circumstances that dictate their refusal to change, and what positive steps they plan to take to make/keep you happy. Of course, if they’re dishonorable sorts, they’ll try to blow smoke up your butt and convince you that if you’ll just hang on for a while they’ll make it up to you later. You’re undoubtedly smart enough to tell the difference, but the key to watch for is whether they give you a concrete plan with well defined actions or vague promises.

I highly recommend that anyone looking for a job, anyone who has a job who’s looking for a raise, or anyone who has to manage the hiring and evaluation process digest everything at Ask the Headhunter. It’s a bit skewed toward executive jobs in the technology field, but most of the advice and information there is universally applicable, particularly about ignoring all of the irrelevant crap that’s been dragged into the hiring and salary negotiation process by personnel departments and other empty suits, and about focusing on the work you do and the value that has.

Perhaps most importantly, thinking about work in this way probably makes you an even more valuable worker, merely by virtue of forcing you to focus on what it is you do that maximizes profit for your employer. When you have to think through this for yourself in order to make the argument for more money, you also begin to see how you can do even better.

10

I was in the same position with a small company last year. It helps if you can quote comparative salaries from other jobs/fields. I work in the web and got a substantial rise last year when I proved to my then-employer* that I would make more in a supermarket than building his websites. Apart from that, my only advice is the obvious stuff. Dress smartly, have your facts ready and try to keep it business-like and friendly. Don’t get too emotional, but let them know that it matters to you. If you can get any proof that you are underpaid by industry standards it helps to provide it.

And be confident. Remember that the company probably knows if you are underpaid, and knows how much they value you. They just won’t pay you any more than they need to. (To quote the boss above at the start of negotiations “We’re very happy with what we’re paying you.”)

Good luck with your negotiations.

*I got a larger rise switching company a few months later…

11

All of the above is good advice.

But be warned that no matter how softly you ask, you’re effectively asking your employer to choose between paying you more and losing you. Which is fine unless a) there aren’t alot of jobs out there for you and/or b) your employer is feeling a financial pinch right now anyway, and letting you go makes that problem better for them.

By all means get what you deserve. But if you think either of the above two things are true, then look around for a new job first.

12

Some more advice?..

Is there a way to do this without being confrontational? I merely want to lay out the following: here’s industry standard pay vs my pay; here’s how much money I directly make the company (relatively easy to put a number to based on some slightly weighted statistical means). I also plan (I mentioned this earlier) to keep a timesheet on myself for at least a month (too short?).

Essentially, I want to present why I think I should get a raise that isn’t a part of my yearly wage review. I do not want to put it: gimme or I walk. I don’t want to walk, so why would I lie to them? We are a small company and we are all friends here (my boss and I almost shared an apt but my lousy credit didn’t help anything and nixed that one). I don’t even want to state what raise I think I should get… I want to give them my facts, have them converse (three bosses total), and then we sit down and they 1) present their reasons for the salary I currently have 2) present their motivation for not paying me up to industry standard and 3) make me an offer from $0-X as a raise, with their reasoning behind it.

Essentially, I wanna bring GD into a meeting! :wink:

I am not someone who is easily walked on, but I am NOT confrontational (present debates in the Pit notwithstanding) and would never be able to pull of a “pay me or walk” scheme.

Can anyone link me or tell me the book titles of (for library research) government sources for pay scales? I’d like to have, essentially, three unbiased sources for the pay scale.

In the end, I make up a folder outlining my requests (a raise, a meeting over it), including all the data I would draw on as a basis. Hell, it’ll be like a proposal, you know?

And if they present a good reason why I shouldn’t get a raise, well, I’m not going to argue.

Am I being too soft here?

My wage reviews occur in April… that’s 6 months away. should I gather info until then and hit them with it during the wage review? (6 months is a long time, but we’re talking a greater than 6% raise here) If I do do that, should I demand this proposed increase over the percentage increase I get?

sigh The real world-- I’m just not prepared to be in it.

13

erislover,

Here is the US labor department’s salary database. You should find something reasonably close to your job in there.

As others have said, the salary averages should only be used as supporting evidence. Your main point should be your extra value to the company. If possible, this value should be backed up with concrete examples of what you’ve done.

You should also at least look around your area (if you want to stay there) to see if you could find another job if needed. You have to at least know what your options are.

As to making it non-confrontational, I feel your pain. I work in a small company too (at least was small when I started). Our CEO and VP (the 2 founders) even came to my wedding! It is tough when you’re friendly with your boss. Best thing is to prepare your pitch ahead of time, practice it, and listen to what your boss’s response is. If the answer is “no” don’t get upset. Ask why not. Explain that you may have to look elsewhere. If your boss claims that it is strictly a business decision not to give you a raise (and it should be), then they must understand your business decision to look around for a better situation.

Bottom line: Consider it a sales pitch. You wouldn’t tell a customer to buy because “We need the money”. You’d go in prepared and rehearsed. You’d tell them the benefits they could expect to receive. You’d listen and respond calmly to any objections they might have. And in the end, if they just weren’t going to buy no matter what, you’d move on to a better prospect.

Good Luck!